Superheroes in D&D

[Bebbit]

So has this thread just devolved into Superman vs Wizard, with both sides not budging on who would win due to nebulous circumstances?

[The_Jette]

So has this thread just devolved into Superman vs Wizard, with both sides not budging on who would win due to nebulous circumstances?

You should read through the argument about Wonder Woman.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I would like to point that Celerity works by breaking the laws of causality. It steals time from the future so that you can act now. You don't become superfast upon casting the spell, you literally get an extra couple seconds that nobody else gets. It doesn't matter how much faster the opposition is because you extra time to do what you want.

[Kaleph]

[QUOTE=ColorBlindNinja;22139799]Why not?




Can't say I blame you.



Yet, other Kryptonians simply show up and Earth and get superpowers. I'm pretty sure Superman's powers didn't fully manifest until he was an adult.




You generally don't age in timeless planes, but you can retroactively age when you leave them.




That would be silly. Nothing I have ever seen would indicate that Superman is magical in any way. EX abilities can break the laws of physics after all.



Cloudkill would be instant death for a one HD creature. Also, epic casters can deal infinite damage, without epic magic to boot.



When did Superman do something like that? In any event, Dimensional Lock should solve that problem.



That wouldn't make much sense, as Forcecage is indestructible.

But it's not important, even if we would agree that your tactict doesn't work, a new, succesful strategy may be found. You get my point.

D&D Wizards do have plenty of options.



I'd argue that CR breaks down long before that...

Edit:



What do you mean by "combat advantages"?



Foresight is literally precognition; Superman's sensory abilities aren't really the same thing. Celerity is also time manipulation, Superman's speed is better represented by extra actions and a high initiative score.



I disagree that it's pointless, but I can understand why you might feel that way.



Agreed. Superman is strong in his own right, I just feel that he doesn't stack up to high-end D&D 3.5.

Solar battery is a special quality, I believe.
When I statted the kryptonian some post ago, I considered that they get extra HD when they're charged, so cloudkill wouldn't work. Infinite damage yes, as long as it's counted as a single instantaneous source of damage (due to DR).

Regarding astounishing deeds of superman, besides planar travel, I've read he could survive the end of the universe, travel through a supernova, move planes of existence from outside and even move a black hole, or something like that. This is why I'd like to avoid discussing PvP including him.

Combat advantage means, for example, that you're cought without foresight. Or anyhow prevented from being 100% operative. Any condition that makes your typical tacticts uneffective. In that case supes wins. If you have the time to implement your strategy, instead (I believe it's possible to create a step-by-step procedure that, if not stopped before step 1 takes place, cannot be countered anymore), the wizard wins. After a certain level this is the typical conclusion of moat encounters, so we can simply skip the simulation and directly jump to the conclusion.

[The_Jette]

Combat advantage means, for example, that you're cought without foresight. Or anyhow prevented from being 100% operative. Any condition that makes your typical tacticts uneffective. In that case supes wins. If you have the time to implement your strategy, instead (I believe it's possible to create a step-by-step procedure that, if not stopped before step 1 takes place, cannot be countered anymore), the wizard wins. After a certain level this is the typical conclusion of moat encounters, so we can simply skip the simulation and directly jump to the conclusion.

The thing about Foresite is all it does it prevent you from being flat footed or surprised, plus provides an extra +2 to initiative. I don't understand why that's considered so amazing. Assuming we're taking Superman, a character who doesn't kill, and putting him in the control of a D&D player, who does with impunity, then Superman flies in, wins initiative with a bonus of +infinity to his roll, then uses his laser eyes to melt the Wizards face off/ claps so hard the force breaks every bone in the Wizard's body/ uses freeze breath to freeze the Wizard solid/ punches him so hard his head flies off/ whatever the D&D player decides is the funniest way to kill someone. Superman played by a D&D player would be a pretty ruthless murderer.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The thing about Foresite is all it does it prevent you from being flat footed or surprised, plus provides an extra +2 to initiative. I don't understand why that's considered so amazing. Assuming we're taking Superman, a character who doesn't kill, and putting him in the control of a D&D player, who does with impunity, then Superman flies in, wins initiative with a bonus of +infinity to his roll, then uses his laser eyes to melt the Wizards face off/ claps so hard the force breaks every bone in the Wizard's body/ uses freeze breath to freeze the Wizard solid/ punches him so hard his head flies off/ whatever the D&D player decides is the funniest way to kill someone. Superman played by a D&D player would be a pretty ruthless murderer.

A. Superman would not have a +Infinity initiative mod.
B. A D&D player's not in control of Superman.
C. None of that would do anything to the Wizard since she's going to be incorporeal.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Solar battery is a special quality, I believe.

Seems a little arbitrary.

When I statted the kryptonian some post ago, I considered that they get extra HD when they're charged, so cloudkill wouldn't work. Infinite damage yes, as long as it's counted as a single instantaneous source of damage (due to DR).

Bonus HD? That doesn't sound like a good idea.

Regarding astounishing deeds of superman, besides planar travel, I've read he could survive the end of the universe, travel through a supernova, move planes of existence from outside and even move a black hole, or something like that. This is why I'd like to avoid discussing PvP including him.

OK.

Combat advantage means, for example, that you're cought without foresight. Or anyhow prevented from being 100% operative. Any condition that makes your typical tacticts uneffective. In that case supes wins.[/QUOTE]

Why wouldn't the Wizard have Foresight up. When her buffs run out, simply rest via Rope Trick.

If you have the time to implement your strategy, instead (I believe it's possible to create a step-by-step procedure that, if not stopped before step 1 takes place, cannot be countered anymore), the wizard wins. After a certain level this is the typical conclusion of moat encounters, so we can simply skip the simulation and directly jump to the conclusion.

OK.

[Hackulator]

So has this thread just devolved into Superman vs Wizard, with both sides not budging on who would win due to nebulous circumstances?

Yeah I have tried to bring it back on track but it seems impossible, as there are people on this forum who seem to actually have parts of their identity tied up in the idea that wizards are the most powerful things ever. I literally had a person in one thread using the first person pronoun when he was discussing wizards. Or people who don't understand the difference between a combat abstraction and a narrative.

[The_Jette]

A. Superman would not have a +Infinity initiative mod.
B. A D&D player's not in control of Superman.
C. None of that would do anything to the Wizard since she's going to be incorporeal.

A. The +infinity to initiative was sarcasm.
B. Nobody is in control of Superman, because he hasn't even been built, yet. But, since we're having theoretical battles, someone needs to. So, since killing has already been mentioned, the best assumption is that someone is taking his theoretical stats and using them, therefore he would be under the control of a player.
C. Why is it it that you assume that being incorporeal would matter to Superman? It's already been shown that he can punch through the planes. Those aren't corporeal. Plus, Superman can attack in ways other than just punching, as was pointed out.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is why it's silly to try and simulate a fight like this without an established baseline. Does the wizard just chill all day in incorporeal form, on the off-chance that someone comes to punch him?

Why wouldn't you stay incorporeal all the time? If you need something done, minions can do it for you. Wizards don't get to high levels unless they're paranoid and crazy prepared.

[The_Jette]

This is why it's silly to try and simulate a fight like this without an established baseline. Does the wizard just chill all day in incorporeal form, on the off-chance that someone comes to punch him?

Apparently.

[Tainted_Scholar]

B. Nobody is in control of Superman, because he hasn't even been built, yet. But, since we're having theoretical battles, someone needs to. So, since killing has already been mentioned, the best assumption is that someone is taking his theoretical stats and using them, therefore he would be under the control of a player.

Why? Shouldn't he just be himself, with his personality from the comics?

C. Why is it it that you assume that being incorporeal would matter to Superman? It's already been shown that he can punch through the planes. Those aren't corporeal. Plus, Superman can attack in ways other than just punching, as was pointed out.

Current Superman can't punch through planes, and we're using current Superman. And your other examples still wouldn't hurt an incorporeal being.

[The_Jette]

Why wouldn't you stay incorporeal all the time? If you need something done, minions can do it for you. Wizards don't get to high levels unless they're paranoid and crazy prepared.

Elminster isn't incorporeal all the time...

I'm not saying that he's a great example of an optimized wizard. But, he is an epic level Wizard.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Starmantle also protects against non-magical attacks.


Edit:

Elminster isn't incorporeal all the time...

I'm not saying that he's a great example of an optimized wizard. But, he is an epic level Wizard.

No, he's not optimized at all.

[Hackulator]

Why wouldn't you stay incorporeal all the time? If you need something done, minions can do it for you. Wizards don't get to high levels unless they're paranoid and crazy prepared.

How about because literally NO canon wizard does that?

How about because feeling things is nice?

How about because not everybody wants to have to have a minion do EVERYTHING for them?

I understand you don't actually roleplay but characters are at least THEORETICALLY kind of like real people.

[The_Jette]

No, he's not optimized at all.

That's my point. He's not optimal. But, he's Epic level. Meaning that you can get to a high level as a Wizard without being incorporeal all the time.

[Bebbit]

One of the biggest problems with this argument is that you're using an established person with a background, personality, and skill-set vs a formless entity that you can adjust to target any weakness at will with no oversight.

A much better argument would be to use an established Wizard or other character to fight Supes. Otherwise, he's obviously going to lose if you can just change the goalposts at any moment.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That's my point. He's not optimal. But, he's Epic level. Meaning that you can get to a high level as a Wizard without being incorporeal all the time.

The only reason Elminster got to that high level is narrative.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How about because literally NO canon wizard does that?

This matters... Why exactly?

How about because feeling things is nice?

Not dying is nicer. Plus, you can stay corporeal in your Mage's Magnificent Mansion.

How about because not everybody wants to have to have a minion do EVERYTHING for them?

If you could have minions do your household chores, would you?

I understand you don't actually roleplay but characters are at least THEORETICALLY kind of like real people.

Excuse me? I would kindly ask you to leave your Stormwind Fallacy out of this discussion.

[The_Jette]

The only reason Elminster got to that high level is narrative.

Okay, I'll use a different example then: Kelben "Blackstaff" Arunsen"

Or, Mordenkainen. Wanna tell me he's only that high a level through narrative?

[Bebbit]

The only reason Elminster got to that high level is narrative.

Which is why he'd be good to go up against Superman, because he exists because of narrative as well.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Okay, I'll use a different example then: Kelben "Blackstaff" Arunsen"

Or, Mordenkainen. Wanna tell me he's only that high a level through narrative?

Would he die to a remotely optimized 1st tier character? What about some of the more dangerous monsters out there?

[Hackulator]

This matters... Why exactly?

Canon characters represent whats reasonable in an actual D&D world. Yes, there are theoretical epic level characters who, when built with zero DM control and allowed to know everything they wanted, take whatever abilities or classes they want with no narrative reasons needed who are theoretically undefeatable. However, those are because of breaking a simulation that is a TERRIBLE simulation and only works when controlled by a person, the DM, and is in fact DESIGNED to be controlled as such.

As for the Stormwind Fallacy, optimization is in your character sheet. Saying all wizards 100% of the time incorporeal not physically interacting with things is ****ty understanding of roleplaying. Might there be a wizard who does that because of reasons that make sense for him? Yes. Do MOST wizards do that? No. The existence of one theoretical wizard who does that does not mean that every wizard does that, nor does it mean that no character can be considered epic unless it can match that wizard.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Canon characters represent whats reasonable in an actual D&D world.

No, they represent the game designers attempt to stat up characters. In many cases, these characters can't effectively fight monsters that they should be able to defeat.

Yes, there are theoretical epic level characters who, when built with zero DM control and allowed to know everything they wanted, take whatever abilities or classes they want with no narrative reasons needed who are theoretically undefeatable. However, those are because of breaking a simulation that is a TERRIBLE simulation and only works when controlled by a person, the DM, and is in fact DESIGNED to be controlled as such.

Just because the DM can fix it, doesn't mean that RAW doesn't allow it.

As for the Stormwind Fallacy, optimization is in your character sheet. Saying all wizards 100% of the time incorporeal not physically interacting with things is ****ty understanding of roleplaying.

Except where I said that they aren't incorporeal 100% of the time. Also, I said that a Wizard might want to that to stay alive.

Might there be a wizard who does that because of reasons that make sense for him? Yes.

Then why is this a problem?

Do MOST wizards do that? No.

They are completely capable of doing so. The fact that not all of them do is irrelevant.

The existence of one theoretical wizard who does that does not mean that every wizard does that, nor does it mean that no character can be considered epic unless it can match that wizard.

Did anyone claim that, at all? I certainly didn't. I just said that Superman might be epic via CR, but CR is meaningless and he isn't hard for epic spellcasters to kill.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Getting back to the main point of the Thread, the Superheroes will definitely be powerful, but they'll be far from the strongest things in the Planescape.

[AvatarVecna]

Getting back to the main point of the Thread, the Superheroes will definitely be powerful, but they'll be far from the strongest things in the Planescape.

Superman vs Lady Of Pain.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Superman vs Lady Of Pain.

Isn't the Lady suppose to be one of the most powerful beings in D&D?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Superman vs Lady Of Pain.

Probably a bad idea.

[Bebbit]

If we're beyond trying to convert them to D&D terms, and are just going for a slug fest, Villains would be more appropriate challenges for the D&D verse. They usually have more powerful skill-sets, minions, and the desire to use them the way we're thinking.

Throw Supes into D&D and he'd just try to make friends with everyone, not go on a rampage trying to kill the most powerful beings.

Toss Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet in, and it's a completely different story.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If we're beyond trying to convert them to D&D terms, and are just going for a slug fest, Villains would be more appropriate challenges for the D&D verse. They usually have more powerful skill-sets, minions, and the desire to use them the way we're thinking.

Throw Supes into D&D and he'd just try to make friends with everyone, not go on a rampage trying to kill the most powerful beings.

Toss Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet in, and it's a completely different story.

Let's face it, villains tend to be more fun than heroes.