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    Default Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Spoilers for people who do not watch the defenders stuff on netflix.

    So H.A.M.M.E.R. has now been repeatedly spoiled on Luke Cage and has been mentioned on Agents of Shield and possibly referenced in Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

    HAMMER is canonically Norman Osbournes replacement for SHIELD, made by combining Oscorp, the Hand, Hydra and AIM into an army which works "for" the US government.

    The HAMMER teasers and the rogue US organization paying for experiments which led to David Tenant and Luke Cage suggests that Osbourne is going to tie together the Avengers, Spiderman and the Defenders. I don't watch agents of shield, does that shed any light on this?
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Wow. Granted I haven't actually watched much of any of the TV stuff so I'm pretty in the dark with things on that side of the MCU. but I certainly would have never expected HAMMER to resurface in any shape or form.

    Not that I actually expect them to go all Dark Reign in the MCU, but it is kind of awkward that the implications of the Iron Patriot are kind of completely different in the comics compared to the version in the movies...


    That being said, since you mentioned them, I would really love to see AIM legitimately represented in the MCU, as far as evil organizations they were always the 'funnest'. "Screw taking over the world, we just want to do science in any way we see fit without the pesky hindrance of an ethics committee".
    Last edited by BiblioRook; 2017-06-19 at 05:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    I think Dark Reign fits in okay with the current setting. Avengers are fugitives for the most part, defenders are underground vigilantes with criminal records, UN is trying to impose control over Tony Stark, and Hydra broke up.

    All we need is the Hand to break up and conditions are nearly the same as after the comic book civil war (and thor ragonorak is going to force the asgardians to Earth.)
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Spoilers for people who do not watch the defenders stuff on netflix.

    So H.A.M.M.E.R. has now been repeatedly spoiled on Luke Cage and has been mentioned on Agents of Shield and possibly referenced in Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

    HAMMER is canonically Norman Osbournes replacement for SHIELD, made by combining Oscorp, the Hand, Hydra and AIM into an army which works "for" the US government.

    The HAMMER teasers and the rogue US organization paying for experiments which led to David Tenant and Luke Cage suggests that Osbourne is going to tie together the Avengers, Spiderman and the Defenders. I don't watch agents of shield, does that shed any light on this?
    ...no, that was Hammer Industries. Their first MCU appearance was in Iron Man 2.

    Agents of Shield recently did an arc that was basically a mashup of Civil War/Dark Reign and House of M, though.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2017-06-19 at 08:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    On the flip side it would be hilarious if they did it and proved, once and for all, that any and all civil war/pro government registration of supers storylines are either an idiot running the show who's going to set things up for the villains unwittingly, or a villain who's got actively malicious intent.

    Thus making sure that there WAS no "well stark had a point" defenders left. (I'm sorry, no, no he didn't. He had an obnoxious pie in the sky even by his standards dream, a god complex and a complete in ability to cope with guilt over an event he wasn't even involved in and that was horribly, horribly contrived by the writers to set what the likes of Bendez and Quesada wanted in motion.)
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Thus making sure that there WAS no "well stark had a point" defenders left. (I'm sorry, no, no he didn't. He had an obnoxious pie in the sky even by his standards dream, a god complex and a complete in ability to cope with guilt over an event he wasn't even involved in and that was horribly, horribly contrived by the writers to set what the likes of Bendez and Quesada wanted in motion.)
    I don't see how a Sandford-like event is contrived, it seems more like it is inevitable.

    Superheroes inevitably are going to fail sometimes, that failure will inevitability going to have colossal consequences and both the careless way the New Warriors appeared and the subsequent public reaction is something that is both plausible and topical.

    The real problem for the set up to Civil War is, why didn't anyone push for Superheros to serve under public auspices and oversight sooner?

    It comes as a new idea introduced amid (curiously contemporary) hysteria after superheroes had done their work for decades worth of comics with no similar call. Yet Superheroes are no stranger to extreme dramatic mishap, even (if not especially) the sort of mishap that might be argued could be prevented by rigorous rules regarding how they should conduct their vigilante behavior.
    Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2017-06-20 at 12:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    1: Nitro, the bad guy in the civil war comic who was the unexpected element who wound up causing Sandford, has been around for decades, been a massive scale terrorist, and been a mass murderer for that same length of time. Why was he never executed? What's the in universe logic for keeping him alive and let him out of jail ever and not offing him the first or second time he escaped because he clearly could not be contained and clearly was too much of a risk to allow him to keep getting free?


    2: Want the movie version? Ok. It's canon in the movie version that one guy with less to work with then you could have on a single person making a median income in the USA was able to completely sucker not just Stark and The Avengers but every government and intelligence agency on the planet all at the same time. If there that easily duped why in hell would anyone EVER risk giving them more power then they already have?


    3: Back to the comic, it was also brazenly out of character for The New Warriors and ignored significant parts of there Canon. Specifically, things that are part of the canon that would have hurt the story's ability to justify jumping from that too mass mandatory registration of all super humans, and the obvious consequences of letting any government due that.

    They have insurance, they evacuate people ahead of fight when they can, they were shown brazenly out of character just to contrive that disaster to happen, because who the hell cares how we get there Mandatory Government registration is always intrinsically right and moral period end of story according to Marvel. Please forget 40+ years of X-men Canon making the exact opposite point again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

    4: X-men. Again. There have been calls for registration, and story's set in futures were they got it. We know how it ends. Badly. Always, Always, Always badly. This was deliberately overlooked during this story arc, and all the people powerful enough to single handedly say no, for exactly that reason, taken off the board so that Stark and his stooges could say yes. (Thor and Silver Surfer conveniently Dead, the X-men in there entirety conveniently dead or being held with guns to there and there family's heads 24/7 by the government, Dr. Strange refusing to make the call and remind Stark "Hey, you know all those futures we've seen were registration happened and it nearly or entirely wipes out or subjugates Humanity? Remember those? Yeah, sorry Tony, no, no you may not make them reality in this time line. Go get therapy if you want to feel better, I'll help you find a good head shrink." )

    Also they were using it to have a diatribe about any politics that disagreed with there own. Something Quesada at least has gotten more and more brazen about in the last decade in marvel, which is a big part of why I refuse to give there comics my money anymore and have since the original event. And they show no signs of figuring out how to reverse that trend in the foreseeable future.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    ...no, that was Hammer Industries. Their first MCU appearance was in Iron Man 2.

    Agents of Shield recently did an arc that was basically a mashup of Civil War/Dark Reign and House of M, though.
    Now I have to watch Agents of Shield... Is it okay to just skip season 1? Because the early part of that show is awful to me.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    On the flip side it would be hilarious if they did it and proved, once and for all, that any and all civil war/pro government registration of supers storylines are either an idiot running the show who's going to set things up for the villains unwittingly, or a villain who's got actively malicious intent.

    Thus making sure that there WAS no "well stark had a point" defenders left. (I'm sorry, no, no he didn't. He had an obnoxious pie in the sky even by his standards dream, a god complex and a complete in ability to cope with guilt over an event he wasn't even involved in and that was horribly, horribly contrived by the writers to set what the likes of Bendez and Quesada wanted in motion.)
    Well sure he had no points, if you just ignore all the very good reasons for registration to exist.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Now I have to watch Agents of Shield... Is it okay to just skip season 1? Because the early part of that show is awful to me.
    Season one does set up a lot of stuff for what comes later. If you can struggle through the first third of the season, it does get better (starting about 'Eye Spy').

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Well sure he had no points, if you just ignore all the very good reasons for registration to exist.
    Yup. Like making sure the Inhuman hate groups have the names, addresses, phone numbers social security numbers, up to date pictures, and lists of powers of all Inhumans globally, AND there family members and friends! That was totally important! Now, let's just try to ignore that that backfired predictably and horribly and large numbers of innocent people were murdered as a direct result of this action, and focus instead on the fact that the Scientist who doesn't qualify as having powers and thus didn't qualify as having to register the same way those murder victims did created another killer AI that almost ended the world! And that Stark is responsible for doing it the first time and HE didn't have to register!




    Registration was a bad idea. It was always a horrible idea. It will always be a horrible idea. Hell, the return of people with super powers was the thing that broke Hydra and prevented them from taking complete and uncontestable control of humanity. With out powers. And with government backing and approval and resources.


    That alone should disqualify the government from ever claiming the baseline competence and benevolence required to even entertain registration as anything other then the worst possible course of action.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    For the record, I was just talking of Sanford.

    What happens in Civil War and Post-Civil War is wacky and contradictory in all the ways mentioned, hinted at, implied, or sniped at above, and probably a few ways you didn't get to.

    A reaction against Marvel Superheroes is inevitable, it happens, it always happens. As far as Nitro is concerned, his history and MO, as you discribedv it, isn't that different from the generic comic book villain...especially the part about always escaping and coming back...Only difference is that he just actually, finally, caused real mass murder and mayhem that carries grave and out of control consequences.

    It might not be like the New Warriors to go in without evacuating everyone (when it is an option) and the superhero groups may be fully-deputized and work with law-enforcement already and so on...

    None of that changes that superhero behavior is risky, often reckless by RL standards, and that they enjoy wide-latitude and autonomy from the government for their crime/terrorist/alien/monster fighting behavior.

    Also, whatever was said about whose side was right on Civil War: Doesn't Norman Osborne and HAMMER (not to mention everything else subsequent to Civil War plus the MCU) all suggest that government approval and sanction isn't such a great way to go?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Which is not readily separated because the writers did not want it to be, because it was a contrivance to push the registration narrative and there diatribe against the at that time current US president's administration.


    Yes, it was. I choose not to get everything because I was trying to have a post that could be read in a halfway reasonable period of time.


    Yes, but again, reacting to the super hero's is backwards. You don't want them to be Judge Jury and Executioner, so they go with that. They hand him over to your government, repeatedly. Meaning they are not Judging him, Not acting as Jury, and not Executing him themselves. Which was what you wanted. Restraint. Voluntary restraint at that. The authorities, then, proceed to fail, even though he is text book for execution by realistic standards you have invoked, to execute him repeatedly. So, rather then looking at the government and yelling "Why was he not offed the last 20 times they handed him over to you?!! That would have prevented this!!!" they yell at the super hero's who stopped him the last 20 times cause he finally got one lucky shot in. It's tremendously backwards.


    How is it reckless for someone who is Bulletproof, strong enough to deadlift a skyscraper, and doesn't come form this planet, to decide they wish to stop things that the cops aren't equipped to stop form rampaging about and killing/oppressing anyone they wish, but that this being is equipped to stop? How is it reckless, for a group with enough power to fight back effectively, when there planet is being overwhelmed by an organized invasion force form another planet, to say "Ok, The army and the Police are getting run roughshod over by these invaders, we are going to step in and help them to try and keep more people from being needlessly killed and to keep the aliens from doing whatever thing they are motivated to do that has them invaded." and then do so effectively?

    "Oh well hulks a problem..."

    Yes, cause you keep trying to mass produce what happened to him against his will and the guy in charge of hunting him is incompetent, motivated by pure self interest, and lives to anger the man who's only dangerous when angry to further that self interest. And you want to give that man MORE power!

    "Well what about Spiderman..."


    He's on your government sanctioned team.

    "The X-men..."

    Are not considered a threat by your government sanctioned team The Avengers, and if you did something about those hate groups that want to genocide them first, you might have a leg to stand on. No, giving them better and more advanced/powerful weapons is not doing something about them. Giving them the names/addresses/phone numbers/pictures/powers lists of the mutants and there family's isn't doing something either.

    "Yeah but the Punisher..."

    Should be dealt with cause he's just some dude who use to be in the military, ahs a lot of weapons and military training with those already illegal military grade weapons, and is seriously mentally damaged. Send Ironman and Captain America to bring him in and deal with him one way or the other already.

    "And Daredevil..."

    Has a no killing rule and confirmed super powers, just less powerful ones. If you want to give him some more support on half way reasonable terms, you could probably do that. His murderous life long foe specializes in corruption however so him giving out his Identity is a none starter.








    As for that last point, that came in after an election in the US, were the candidate and political party that Joe Quesada, Brian Michel Bendez and the others who made Civil War happen and declared that Stark was morally 100% right the whole time and the hero and this was 100% right and disagreeing made you the bad guy, had been supporting, won that election. They then, knowing they'd lost half there readership already anyway over this stunt and also that having that president and party continuing the not so good stuff that had caused that leaving en mass, they did a quick thing with Osborn so that at the end, said president could be the hero and come in and suspend the act with his new executive powers.

    It wasn't "Registration was a mistake/bad idea after all. Sorry." it was "It's only evil when it's not our politics being enforced. Ours are intrinsically good in and of themselves, and there's are evil."

    Note: Suspend. Not repeal. It's still on the books in the Marvel U. Now that there party lost the most recent major national elections and given how Quesada has been acting since this all played out, frankly, I expect it's only a matter of time before it get's un-suspended and re-implemented so that they can have yet more diatribes about how anyone who disagrees with there personal politics even slightly on any issue at all is inherently evil.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Now I have to watch Agents of Shield... Is it okay to just skip season 1? Because the early part of that show is awful to me.
    The start of the show is weak and mostly episodic, yes, but towards the end of season 1 the events of Captain America: The Winter Soldier impact the plot, and suddenly it starts pulling all the plot threads together and becomes much better. A lot of stuff from the early episodes is vital to understanding the plot and characterisation in later ones.
    Last edited by Prime32; Yesterday at 08:18 AM.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Yup. Like making sure the Inhuman hate groups have the names, addresses, phone numbers social security numbers, up to date pictures, and lists of powers of all Inhumans globally, AND there family members and friends! That was totally important! Now, let's just try to ignore that that backfired predictably and horribly and large numbers of innocent people were murdered as a direct result of this action, and focus instead on the fact that the Scientist who doesn't qualify as having powers and thus didn't qualify as having to register the same way those murder victims did created another killer AI that almost ended the world! And that Stark is responsible for doing it the first time and HE didn't have to register!
    That actually happen in the comics.
    During registration, everyone who did had their info on the web for hate groups. Till the New Warriors "illegally" (since they didn't register) brought them down (website and dude doing it).

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Which is the problem with giving anything sensitive to any government in any comic. They're about as leak-proof as a colander.

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Now I have to watch Agents of Shield... Is it okay to just skip season 1? Because the early part of that show is awful to me.
    Personal Opinion: You can do an accelerated watch of Season One, and it's still fine. Better than fine, really.

    Watch the following episodes, and you're fine:

    1. Episode 1, Pilot
    2. Episode 4, Eye Spy
    3. Episode 5, Girl In Flower Dress
    4. Episode 10, The Bridge
    5. Episode 11, The Magical Place
    6. maaaaybe Episode 13, TRACKS, although really just the "Previously On" for next time is probably fine.
    7. Episode 14, TAHITI

    And then Episode 16 (End of the Beginning) and onwards for the point where the series actually gets good.

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    "Yes Men" probably should be on the list because, blah as it is, it's where Ward's true nature is shown for the first time. But you also get a fight between Elena Satine and Jamie Alexander.

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Which is the problem with giving anything sensitive to any government in any comic. They're about as leak-proof as a colander.
    Important part underlined. Governments fail partly because the genre convention requires the problems be solved by people in colourfull tights, and partly because many writers have a beefs against their governments which leaks into their stories.

    There are stories and settings which lack these traits and hence manage a less negative take on the subject. Men In Black movies are a great example. The MIBs register and monitor all aliens and alien tech. They deport, imprison and kill illegal aliens. They mindwipe people, stash weapons in civilian homes and just in general perform every dirty trick associated with evil government MIBs. Yet they're the heroes, and everything they do is ultimately portrayed as necessary for the common people to live their lives.

    The first movie even has a joke based on this: when J asks which government they work for, K replies they're 100% privately funded. That's a jab aimed squarely at the sort of anti-government paranoia which pervades the genre. Because what the MIBs do is still exactly what you'd expect a government bureaucracy to do.

    The same applies to Superheroes. Hey, guess who first thought up a system for tracking down and registering mutants in Marvel? Charles Xavier. You know, founder of X-men? One of the chief good guys? And this was treated as a good thing and indeed, Xavier had many great points about how tracking down mutants to offer them sanctuary and education on their powers would benefit the common good.

    Somehow, when an individual philantrope privately does a thing, it's a good thing and the good aspects are focused on. But when it's a government doing the thing, it's a bad thing and the bad aspects are focused on. But it's not like the act itself is different. It's not like the plotlines which follow are even different. Cerebro used to get hacked every other weekend, or Xavier turned evil, or what have you. Right now, in the Wonder Woman thread people are arguing for the merits of Batman having info on and plans to take down Justice League without telling them. Well if Batman has reason to do it, any government worth its salt has reason to do it. You can't argue Batman was a better guy to do it, because ultimately his plans were stolen by the bad guys too!

    That's the bottom line. Regardless of whether something would be a good idea, it will fail for the sake of drama if it being successfull would remove too much of the drama. Solutions are only allowed to last at the end of the story, and superhero universes have no definite end. Registeration fails to be effective for the same reasons Joker never gets the chair and Reed Richards is useless and Peter Parker has to sell his marriage to the Devil so he'll be conviently single and penniless.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Yes, but again, reacting to the super hero's is backwards. You don't want them to be Judge Jury and Executioner, so they go with that. They hand him over to your government, repeatedly. Meaning they are not Judging him, Not acting as Jury, and not Executing him themselves. Which was what you wanted. Restraint. Voluntary restraint at that. The authorities, then, proceed to fail, even though he is text book for execution by realistic standards you have invoked, to execute him repeatedly.
    The simple fact that he was brought in by unsanctioned vigilantes not following any due process of law is almost certainly enough to ensure any halfway competent lawyer can get him released.

    That's really the only point for registration, if you want to be involved in law enforcement you need to be trained in all the procedures of law enforcement, which is far more than just "duff up suspect, put in cell", chains of custody of individuals and evidence, preservation of crime scenes, and so on ensure that the due process of law is followed (the process of law is more important than any individual case.)
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; Today at 02:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    The process of law is more important than any individual case.
    This isn't really true in the Superhero genre, where individual cases are frequently world- or even existence-threatening.

    Part of the appeal of the Marvel movies for me has been that they do a decent job of giving this a nuanced examination, though. In Cap 3: Civil War it's even a major plot point. Steve has good reasons to be wary of too much oversight given the events of his previous movie. But he makes his own case look bad when he lets his bromance with Bucky get in his head and goes after Zemo, breaking practically every law in existence, only to find out the threat upon which he predicated his actions didn't exist.
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    This isn't really true in the Superhero genre, where individual cases are frequently world- or even existence-threatening.
    Those tend not to be law enforcement problems though.

    Quite a lot of what superheroes do is law enforcement, The Vulture isn't going to destroy the world if nobody stops him. He might rob a bank, if he gets lucky.

    Superheroes should, by rights, either restrict themselves to saving the world or if they want to go into law enforcement, should become trained professionals and abide by the professional standards of law enforcement.

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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    "Law enforcement" doesn't really stop anywhere, the scope and nature of laws just changes. Stopping Vulture is a matter of criminal law, stopping the Winter Soldier is a matter of international law. That's a chief difference between comicbook Civil War and the movie, actually. The comic event seemed very focused on USA domestic issues (because that's where many of the most famous heroes live) and though touched upon, the international level felt more of a sidenote. Meanwhile, the movie works primarily on the international level.
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