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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    I caught the point. I just passionately disagree with it. When you have a single person doing something, it's almost always voluntary (I remain convinced the Retcon to Prof X were he was mind raping everyone he came into contact with all the time to always get his way his entire life was done to spit on the idea that a single person might do a job voluntarily and thus better then the government doing it by force.). When the government does it, it's by threat of force. A detail, I note, you feel kind of like your trying to down play in order to make the argument that it's the writers being too anti government for there own good. Which is wrong. There pro government. There vehemently pro large scale government in there politics. They were just also anti one specific presidential administration and political party at the time the comic came out. Now there "if you do not agree 100% with every single facet of our politics, no exceptions, your an evil super villain Nazi.".

    All of which is why I won't give marvels comic book division my money, and the crap I'm seeing rolled out of them compared to all the cool stuff DC is doing with DC rebirth (Dr. Manhatten may be the real reason the DCU keeps getting messed with and changed randomly and rebooted in universe, Wally Wests return, Super Sons and Super/Power Woman, I could go on and on and on but you get the idea.) keeps making me feel this is a good path that I will be staying on for the forseeable future.




    Blackhawk748 : That is much more a part of the reason these plans backfire at a government level.


    Though I would argue that just cause later books are as bad/worse (Hello One More Day/Brand New Day/One Moment In Time, Hello Civil War 2, Hello Avengers Vs. X-men. (though I admit I am still waiting to hear how Ressurextion works out. That might actually help somewhat.) Hello most of the other major books since you started with your own big relaunch. ) doesn't mean we should cut civil war slack. Civil War and Avengers: Disassembled were really kind of the starting points in the main marvel canon for all of those things moving into play.
    "I Burn!"

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    I caught the point. I just passionately disagree with it. When you have a single person doing something, it's almost always voluntary (I remain convinced the Retcon to Prof X were he was mind raping everyone he came into contact with all the time to always get his way his entire life was done to spit on the idea that a single person might do a job voluntarily and thus better then the government doing it by force.).
    Wait, wait, wait.... thats an actual thing? Like...that is the stupidest thing i have ever read, which is actually impressive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

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    1. The point of that scene was that the UN was sandbagging the Avengers, rather than working with them. The way that you get 113 countries to sign something is to work it real quiet-like behind the scenes. Publicly, everyone knows "Oh yeah they're discussing superhumans" and then the results come out and everyone does a double-take. Basically, it's the TPP, but without a hacker leaking the thing. If you assume that the goal here was always to overawe the Avengers and present them with a "take it or leave superheroing" ultimatum, I can buy it.

    2-4. This is pretty unclear, but I thought the implication was that the Accords provide an epic amount of inter-governmental cooperation against superhumans, which they've all signed off on because they're terrified. So the Germans are allowed to run into other countries with advance notice, the UN is issuing shoot-to-kills, and the Accords govern where super-human captives go.

    I will absolutely give you the Secretary of State thing; Ross shouldn't have been in charge of the prison so directly, it should have been someone else. Maybe the Martin Short character, representing the UN.
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    I'll give you number one, but there's no real reason not to use the Romanian police. In most movies, this kind of thing wouldn't be a problem, but when your movie is hanging everything on the idea of nations asserting sovereignty over their territory, maybe don't have the American Secretary of State dictating policy to other countries in their own countries about events that happen in their own countries. (Ross is the one setting Tony's deadlines and authorising him to go places and he's never shown answering to anyone.)

    There should have been a committee calling the shots, like in the Avengers. But then you couldn't have the face of the Accords be Ross, so the audience could consider him a hypocrite

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Wait, wait, wait.... thats an actual thing? Like...that is the stupidest thing i have ever read, which is actually impressive.
    Charles Xavier is kind of a ****. The 616 comics have spent an awful long time saying that "Charles Xavier did a lot of bad stuff".

    The stand out example for me is, I believe, from X-Men Legacy, which reveals out he first met Wolverine: Logan was sent to assassinate Xavier. Xavier talked to him, and basically used his mind powers to plant the idea in Logan's mind that he wanted to be an X-Man... so that when Charles went to him later, he'd agree instantly.

    Of course, since his death, the pendulum has kind of started to swing back the other way again, towards the St. Xavier interpretation of things, so.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Wait, wait, wait.... thats an actual thing? Like...that is the stupidest thing i have ever read, which is actually impressive.
    Yes. This is an actual canonical retcon they did. I believe it was done right after Joss Wheadons run concluded and Civil War concluded, or right before it started and I believe it was done, though the writers won't cop to it, to whip it out and piss all over the idea that a single individual trying to help people with powers to have lives/control there ability's/not get everyone around them killed or worse because of there powers was impossible.


    But the problem was that Xavier and the X-men had been doing it for decades with out government help and often with government opposition with what on the whole would be considered a half way reasonable track record.

    So there solution was to rewrite all of X-men Canon in a similar way to how they've now rewritten all of Captain America Canon in a way that frankly, were he still alive, would probably allow Jack Kirby to sue Marvel for Discrimination and Defamation. (And no, it's not just Redskull messing with Steve's head with the Cosmic Cube. They claimed that in issue 2 of that run, just so the Internet would stop loosing it's minds at them, and then, when they though no one was looking, turned it around so that it wasn't just messing with his head and it was in fact true that Rogers was a Nazi and always had been. Because that was always the true intention all along.)
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    Yes. This is an actual canonical retcon they did. I believe it was done right after Joss Wheadons run concluded and Civil War concluded, or right before it started and I believe it was done, though the writers won't cop to it, to whip it out and piss all over the idea that a single individual trying to help people with powers to have lives/control there ability's/not get everyone around them killed or worse because of there powers was impossible.


    But the problem was that Xavier and the X-men had been doing it for decades with out government help and often with government opposition with what on the whole would be considered a half way reasonable track record.

    So there solution was to rewrite all of X-men Canon in a similar way to how they've now rewritten all of Captain America Canon in a way that frankly, were he still alive, would probably allow Jack Kirby to sue Marvel for Discrimination and Defamation. (And no, it's not just Redskull messing with Steve's head with the Cosmic Cube. They claimed that in issue 2 of that run, just so the Internet would stop loosing it's minds at them, and then, when they though no one was looking, turned it around so that it wasn't just messing with his head and it was in fact true that Rogers was a Nazi and always had been. Because that was always the true intention all along.)
    Wow...... thats just sad. I knew about the Cap thing (both of them) and it made me sick. Frankly im going with the fan theory that Skull used Xavier's brain and modded Steve's memory so he "totally is a Nazi, and always has been" while not actually being a Nazi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Wow...... thats just sad. I knew about the Cap thing (both of them) and it made me sick. Frankly im going with the fan theory that Skull used Xavier's brain and modded Steve's memory so he "totally is a Nazi, and always has been" while not actually being a Nazi.
    Well, maybe if Marvel hadn't been so thick-headed about "Cap is nazi" now, entire shenanigans would be avoided.
    Heck, I even made comparison with Mark Waid's "Return of Barry Allen" and how he actually avoided "Barry is evil" now and try to actually show that he was Eobard Thawne all along.
    Oh, And wielding Thor's hammer, making Magneto as "allies" and try to make Inhumans to be sympathetic despite their Tau-like nature (Caste system and sterilization of rebels), and ignoring how Guardians of the Galaxy are guilty of entire event by staying on Earth rather than doing space stuff!
    Second, Marvel: Zeta Gundam anyone with HAMMER as super hero version of Titans?
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The thing about Superhero stories is that they can't run with the idea of Superheroes not having a reason to exist. So they always have to make the idea of registration backfire, because otherwise you can't have superhero stories.
    The Keene Act. Watchmen, of course.

    You just need to discard any expectation of continuity, or a shared, static universe. Those things will cause issues with story progression and resolution.
    I write a horror blog in my spare time.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Wow...... thats just sad. I knew about the Cap thing (both of them) and it made me sick. Frankly im going with the fan theory that Skull used Xavier's brain and modded Steve's memory so he "totally is a Nazi, and always has been" while not actually being a Nazi.
    If I recall right on the Nazi Cap thing, and I may be wrong as again, I refuse to give these books my money because the very suggestion is infuriating and the real meta reasons it's being done I find more so, the argument there making on round 2 is that in the original timeline, the Nazi's won WW2 by a landslide, and Blond Haired Blue Eyed sympathizer to the cause Steven Rogers was a Nazi super soldier program success.

    And then just before the final blow was struck, the allied got there hands on The Cosmic Cube. And used it's powers to change reality so that Rogers was a Patriotic American in full support of the US and it's allies, and thus change the course of history so that the Nazi's lost the war.

    And that now Skull has restored Caps memories of the real timeline, and there working to "fix" it and change it back to what it was suppose to be.

    All of this so Joe Quesada and the books current writer and editor can all made the bold statement that anyone who disagrees with there politics on any level on any issue to any degree for any reason what so ever is intrinsically a fascist Nazi white supremacist and should be treated such. (Namely, beating in the streets, shouted down, no platformed and not allowed anything and regarded as sub human trash, ext.).

    Not like differences of opinion ever happened in politics in all of human history with out one side being evil after all.





    BeerMug Paladin : Resolutions can and do happen in them however. They usually just require some amount of effort on the part of the writers. Which right now we frankly are not seeing from marvel and haven't for years now.
    "I Burn!"

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    If I recall right on the Nazi Cap thing, and I may be wrong as again, I refuse to give these books my money because the very suggestion is infuriating and the real meta reasons it's being done I find more so, the argument there making on round 2 is that in the original timeline, the Nazi's won WW2 by a landslide, and Blond Haired Blue Eyed sympathizer to the cause Steven Rogers was a Nazi super soldier program success.

    And then just before the final blow was struck, the allied got there hands on The Cosmic Cube. And used it's powers to change reality so that Rogers was a Patriotic American in full support of the US and it's allies, and thus change the course of history so that the Nazi's lost the war.

    And that now Skull has restored Caps memories of the real timeline, and there working to "fix" it and change it back to what it was suppose to be.

    All of this so Joe Quesada and the books current writer and editor can all made the bold statement that anyone who disagrees with there politics on any level on any issue to any degree for any reason what so ever is intrinsically a fascist Nazi white supremacist and should be treated such. (Namely, beating in the streets, shouted down, no platformed and not allowed anything and regarded as sub human trash, ext.).

    Not like differences of opinion ever happened in politics in all of human history with out one side being evil after all.
    See, that could be an amazing story, but a side story, not the main one. Frankly i dont think we can save the Marvel Comics, cuz they didn't just drink the political Kool Aid, its in an IV.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guigarci View Post
    "Mr. Aochev, tear down this wall!" Ro'n Ad-Ri'Gan, Bard
    Scottish Samurai done by Professor Gnoll, My Spell, My Weapon, Im a God

    My Post Apocalyptic Alternate Timeline setting: Amerhikan Wasteland

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    They can be saved. Either need a DC style reboot or, failing that, a relaunch were in all the writers and editors participating in this trash fest have been firmly fired and new blood are taking a crack at it, but it can be saved.

    Hell, I could take like, half the bad books there running right now and make them good books.

    Jane Forrester a Thor?

    Ok.

    Step 1: Play up that who is it mystery a bit longer.

    Step 2: Introduce new characters and set Jane up as the Red Herring of the group.

    Step 3: Make it a new character whom we know is worthy from things we saw during the build up arc.

    Step 4: Don't use it as an excuse to beat us over the head with your personal political philosophy.

    You now have a potentially interesting story. Particularly if you tie it in well with Angeline (the way to fix it? Hard reboot and pay whatever kings ransom it takes to get Neil Gaiman in charge and make it clear to whomever his editor is that his job is to get it out on time and correct spelling and punctuation and nothing else, and that if he does anything else he's gone same day. Then get him a GOOD artist and make it clear to that artist his job is to make Mr. Gaiman happy with the art but also to make sure it's turned in on time for the editor.), Loki as Agent of Asgard which was one of the one's you had that was working so I don't even want to think of how you blew it, and Dishonored Thor which, again, should work if you'd get your butts in gear. Tie them in well, and you could use that expanded supporting cast with 2 different flavors of redemption arc, the established Asgard cast, and being able to bounce of Mr. Gaiman's exquisite talents to craft some solid, interesting story and characters. Maybe even enough to justify this being either a permeant or at least a very, very long term change to the status quo.

    Amadeous Cho Hulk.

    More or less due what you were doing prior to killing off Banner in Civil War 2.

    Same Wilson Captain America Book.

    Play him as if he's actually been mentored by Steven Rogers. Hell, Play him like he spent an hour in a room with Rogers once and therefore DOESN'T live to be Joe Quesada's personal political mouth piece.

    America.

    Ok. Make her actually patriotic, and dail down actual politics (Hey, ok, she's Mexican immigrant if I recall right. Show maybe that there are some bad places to be in Mexico and that most places in the US would, by most reasonable people, be considered better places to live on the grounds they don't strongly resemble not only war zones, but war zones were people who give not a **** about warcrimes are fighting on both sides. Just off the top of my head as a thing for one or two issues to make the basic point of why.).

    Also, give her a personality outside of her politics and her race+gender+sexual orientation+ superpowers. Cause there are B and in some cases C characters in long running Shonen Anime that are better written and more fleshed out then this woman at this point and that's unacceptable for a title main character at this length of run time. Cause, if you did that, you could have all the things you want out of this, you just have to stop beating people in the face till there black and blue and bleeding from it.

    Come on. Quirks. Hobby's. Some ACTUAL imperfections. Work with me here I want to like this concept but your making it impossible marvel!



    I could go on but I think I've made my point.
    "I Burn!"

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Unfortunately, MH1, I think the point made is that you should probably give up comics for the sake of your health.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Marvel MCU HAMMER and Norman Osbourne

    Now why would I give Bendez and Quesada and the rest of that lot that kind of satisfaction?

    Particularly since I already stopped buying marvel when Civil War 1 happened and everytime I look back Quesada does or says something that reminds me why I won't give them my money.

    And then instead I go buy Super Sons.
    "I Burn!"

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