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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    The next contest theme should be "Time is on our side (No it isn't)!", which is about being late to everything and having terrible time management skills and just generally being a millennial.
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  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    1st; The Azure Sandweaver; To be honest, this is probably one of my favorite entries that I've seen in any of these contests in a while. I'm a big fan of invoker-based classes in general, and this class has a lot going for it both with and without it's invocations. My main concerns with it would be some minor concerns with regards to the mechanics behind Sands of Time and questions as to whether the class has enough invocations on its list given it's large number of invocations known, but these are fairly minor gripes overall.
    Thanks! what concerns do you have with Sands of Time out of curiosity?

    I do have ~80 invocations which is ~10-15 more than warlocks have (Though Warlocks get about half as many invocations overall). Still you are probably right since a not insignificant chunk of the invocations I have now are fairly flavor/research orientated which might not be relevant for all games. I was running out of appropriate time themed invocations though near the end XD. Maybe after this contest I will be able to think of a few more. I think ~15 per section would be a solid amount.

    Also for voting, is voting generally supposed to be "Which class you personally would prefer to play" or "Which class is better designed". I am struggling between the Warper and the Zeitmeister for 1st and 2nd atm.

    Warper
    Pros: I would definitely prefer to play this class, it has far more utility and various abilities as well as actions per round which I generally prefer. It's gameplay is varied and it has a lot of fairly unique mechanics. It's pretty solid tier 3 that can do a variety of things but doesn't really have any broken mechanics.
    Cons: As noted elsewhere due to the low amount of Chrono Powers every Warper is essentially going to be the same character mechanically. A lot of the abilities have some clunky mechanics (Flux feats that cause you to reduce damage by a third then subtract wisdom modifier is just obnoxious to calculate). The fluff overall is a bit lacking and it feels like it's lacking in a solid theme.

    Zeitmeister
    Pros: Solid design and it feels like a more tightly designed chassis. It's core theme and mechanics all mesh well and support each other. Feels like a spelltheif mixed with swiftblade to be perfectly honest and both of those classes are actually pretty cool.
    Cons: It's not really the type of class I would generally play so that certainly factors into it. I dislike some of the mechanical choices like front loading wisdom to hit and damage and ac. It feels like for this class if I allowed it in a campaign players would just start dipping it for one-two levels to gain those bonuses if they are any kind of a wisdom gish. Zen Archery in particular. Tempus Ambulat is a class feature that is very cool but I kinda feel like is dramatically overpowered at that level. Considering you can just freeze time, grab a bunch of ingested or contact poison and apply 10 doses or some nonsense like that to an enemy in a time stop. At this level there isn't much that enemies could do to stop that. And thats not even counting the out of combat utility like stealing things.

    Also as a question for Zeitmeister, do you have to provide XP or material components for spells duplicated with spell echo?

    I will probably decide sometime this weekend, it just feels like both of their pros and cons in my head are about different aspects of the classes so it's hard to narrow this one down XD
    Last edited by Silva Stormrage; 2019-06-01 at 02:07 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Thanks! what concerns do you have with Sands of Time out of curiosity?
    I'm a little leary of an ability which breaks down to "destroy any non-magical, non-adamantine object with less than 125 cubic foot volume in 10 minutes at will", which potentially obsolesces any non-magical barriers the players might run into right at level 1. At the very least I'd want to know what the effect of partially fading an object is, since the effect is described as a gradual process.

    I do have ~80 invocations which is ~10-15 more than warlocks have (Though Warlocks get about half as many invocations overall). Still you are probably right since a not insignificant chunk of the invocations I have now are fairly flavor/research orientated which might not be relevant for all games. I was running out of appropriate time themed invocations though near the end XD. Maybe after this contest I will be able to think of a few more. I think ~15 per section would be a solid amount.
    I may have miscounted the number of invocations you had, if you have that many than I suppose you should be fine. A rule of thumb I typically try to follow is that a class should have at least three times as many options as it can actually take.

    Zeitmeister
    Cons: It's not really the type of class I would generally play so that certainly factors into it. I dislike some of the mechanical choices like front loading wisdom to hit and damage and ac. It feels like for this class if I allowed it in a campaign players would just start dipping it for one-two levels to gain those bonuses if they are any kind of a wisdom gish. Zen Archery in particular. Tempus Ambulat is a class feature that is very cool but I kinda feel like is dramatically overpowered at that level. Considering you can just freeze time, grab a bunch of ingested or contact poison and apply 10 doses or some nonsense like that to an enemy in a time stop. At this level there isn't much that enemies could do to stop that. And thats not even counting the out of combat utility like stealing things.
    These are fair points. I tried to put limits on Tempus Ambulat to limit its in-combat utility, hence the restriction to move actions, but it sounds like I might want to tighten the restrictions on the ability to effect other creatures a bit more. My goal for the ability was more focused on out of combat utility, such as infiltration or theft, as you mentioned

    Also as a question for Zeitmeister, do you have to provide XP or material components for spells duplicated with spell echo?
    As the ability is currently written a strict RAW interpretation would probably be no, but that's something that I'm definitely going to change at least for XP components after voting is over.
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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    I'm a little leary of an ability which breaks down to "destroy any non-magical, non-adamantine object with less than 125 cubic foot volume in 10 minutes at will", which potentially obsolesces any non-magical barriers the players might run into right at level 1. At the very least I'd want to know what the effect of partially fading an object is, since the effect is described as a gradual process.
    Hm you are right I probably should adjust that a bit. The intent IS so that they can tunnel into tombs and such but perhaps that should be an upgrade like Improved Fading. Also you are right fluff wise it shouldn't be an sudden turn to dust after 10 minutes. I will probably update it so it slowly wears down the item's hardness to 0. Every minute reduces it's hardness by 10% until 10 minutes where it hits 0 and disintegrates, that works fairly well.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    2nd: Zeitmeister It was a tossup between this and the Warper for 1st. I think the Zeitmeister is a much more well designed class, the abilities flow together and it has a solid chassis. It feels like a mix between the spell thief and the swiftblade. But it has some slight issues that made me pick the Warper over it. 1) It's too frontloaded for dipping which I don't particularly like. Any zen archery build can pick this up fairly easily for a massive boost in effectiveness. 2) Most of it's combat options are either full attack or rely on your enemies or allies to cast spells for you to duplicate. Tempus Ambulat works in combat but I struggle to find a way to use it which isn't just "Dump a whole bunch of poison down their throats" which has it's own issues. Overall despite being a more concise and well built class I think the Warper is a class I would rather play.
    I've been thinking about these criticisms and I have an idea as to how to address them. What I'm thinking would be to eliminate Combat Prescience from 1st level (leaving its progression at later levels the same) and instead add an ability that would work similar to sneak attack, only instead of extra damage the target would have to make a Will Save or be flatfooted for a number of rounds, with options to slow or daze the target coming online at levels 10 and 19 respectively. This would reduce the problematic dippability of the class while giving it something extra to do during combat.
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  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    As far as how you should go about voting, it's always been a process left up to the voters. One person might vote for the one they'd most like to play, another might vote for one they think is the most playable, and one might vote for the one they think is the greatest achievement in homebrewing. None of them are right or wrong.
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  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Silva, your comments about the Epoch Walker's power delivery are entirely correct. I somehow thought I had written it to increase the available SLA uses much more quickly than that on the Chaotic Epoch (the Domain Spells of the Civilized Epoch should have lined up with the Chaotic's SLAs much more closely). I also wasn't sure when I first wrote those how much power I would be able to fit into the base class, and it turned out that for the most part I could only fit utility abilities without stepping on the Epochs' toes. If I had remembered at the time, I would have gone back and put that power budget back into the Epochs; perhaps after the contest is over I'll find time to do so.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei View Post
    As far as how you should go about voting, it's always been a process left up to the voters. One person might vote for the one they'd most like to play, another might vote for one they think is the most playable, and one might vote for the one they think is the greatest achievement in homebrewing. None of them are right or wrong.
    Fair enough, I was mostly curious if there was a particular intent or not.

    Silva, your comments about the Epoch Walker's power delivery are entirely correct. I somehow thought I had written it to increase the available SLA uses much more quickly than that on the Chaotic Epoch (the Domain Spells of the Civilized Epoch should have lined up with the Chaotic's SLAs much more closely). I also wasn't sure when I first wrote those how much power I would be able to fit into the base class, and it turned out that for the most part I could only fit utility abilities without stepping on the Epochs' toes. If I had remembered at the time, I would have gone back and put that power budget back into the Epochs; perhaps after the contest is over I'll find time to do so.
    Ya I think if you just up the power of those choices you would end up with a much more well rounded class! I look forward to seeing it when you get around to it.


    Anyone have any good themes for the next contest?
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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Anyone have any good themes for the next contest?
    Well, if we want to start discussing themes early, I could throw out Arabian Nights, Travel and Dungeons
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  10. - Top - End - #430
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Metal and stacking?

  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    Well, if we want to start discussing themes early, I could throw out Arabian Nights, Travel and Dungeons
    Travel and Dungeons would be interesting.

    Other options,
    "Reverse" (As in take a common concept and use it for the reverse. A Doctor who specializes in damage, etc)
    Biology (Anything involving living creatures, plants, etc)

    Also to those of you watching this thread please vote in the contest! So far only one person who hasn't entered the contest has voted!
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Just a reminder, voting closes this Friday at 10pm EST, so please vote if you haven't already.
    If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.

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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Alright, with voting closed it appears the winner is The Azure Sandshaper by Silva Stormrage, with my own Zeitmeister coming in second and The Epoch Walker by MoleMage in third. Unfortunately, as Road_Runner did not vote the Warper does not qualify to place.

    So, for the next contest the votes seem to be;
    Travel; 2
    Dungeons; 2
    Arabian Nights; 1
    Metal; 1
    Stacking; 1


    Keep voting for the next theme, I'll probably make the new contest next week.
    If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.

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  14. - Top - End - #434
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    you now what F it one more vote for Arabian nights let see you gent can create something for the cradle of nations.
    Last edited by khadgar567; 2019-06-15 at 09:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    you now what F it one more vote for Arabian knight let see you gent can create something for the cradle of nations.
    Arabian knight seems cool.
    Last edited by noob; 2019-06-15 at 06:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    I'll vote for Arabian Nights too!

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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    So, for the new vote count we have:

    Travel; 2
    Dungeons; 3
    Arabian Nights; 4
    Metal; 1
    Stacking; 2
    Reversal: 1
    Biology; 1

    I'll post the new contest on Friday, so keep voting until then.

    Edited to update vote counts.
    Last edited by Alabenson; 2019-06-18 at 12:43 PM.
    If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.

    When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.

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  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    I'd go with Stacking or Dungeons, to avoid needing to relentlessly dig through wikis for the relevant stuff. I suppose I could spit out some Sha'ir-based shenanigans, like a half-caster that mixes the casting mechanic with Kensai stuff, but I'd rather not.
    My most liked class, thematically, is the Artificer. Make free items! (fail by RAW to)Hold up the setting! Have access to every magic item...
    My most liked class, mechanically, is the Bard. I sing the enemy to death! (at level 21)I talk you into a suicidal fanatic! I need to cheese rules that make me sing as I fight or talk to get things done...

    I prefer t2 over anything else, because t2 lets you become anything. I think Psionics is more versatile than magic.

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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    I think I'd literally make a genie.
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  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    I did not vote for Arabian nights.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    I was about to comment and say, "wasn't there just a contest called Dungeon Plunge-In fairly recently?" but holy schnitzel that was twenty-two contests ago!

    Throw my vote in for Travel or Dungeons.
    Last edited by UristMcRandom; 2019-06-19 at 11:58 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Recount for the current vote totals:

    Arabian Nights: 3
    Travel: 3
    Dungeons: 4
    Reverse: 1
    Biology: 1
    Metal: 1
    Stacking: 2
    Last edited by Alabenson; 2019-06-21 at 04:27 PM.
    If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.

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  23. - Top - End - #443
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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    Recount for the current vote totals:

    Arabian Nights: 4
    Travel: 3
    Dungeons: 4
    Reverse: 1
    Biology: 1
    Metal: 1
    Stacking: 2
    Noob was observing a typo of Arabian Knight, not voting for Arabian Nights:
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    I did not vote for Arabian nights.
    My most liked class, thematically, is the Artificer. Make free items! (fail by RAW to)Hold up the setting! Have access to every magic item...
    My most liked class, mechanically, is the Bard. I sing the enemy to death! (at level 21)I talk you into a suicidal fanatic! I need to cheese rules that make me sing as I fight or talk to get things done...

    I prefer t2 over anything else, because t2 lets you become anything. I think Psionics is more versatile than magic.

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    Default Re: Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

    Well, it appears that dungeons won, so have a new thread
    If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.

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