Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

[Alabenson]

I kept telling myself this was due today, and so I had today to work on it, but the deadline was an hour ago, wasn't it? If you'll accept a late entry, the class isn't done yet, but it's not far off. I just am not in a mental position to finish it right this moment.

Admittedly I should probably have made a note of this in the original post, but the deadline is PM not AM, so you still have about 10.5 hours or so to post your entry.

[noob]

I did not finish the mythos variant but the main version of the class is complete.

[The Kool]

Admittedly I should probably have made a note of this in the original post, but the deadline is PM not AM, so you still have about 10.5 hours or so to post your entry.

Ah, most people who do not specify are using a 24-hr format, so 10pm would be 22:00 EST

[Alabenson]

Did somebody order a voting thread?

[The Kool]

Aaaaaauuugh! Let me at least sneak in write up the missing class ability! *hurries off to do so*

[Unavenger]

Mm, meltdown happened so this contest was not a priority. Oh well.

[noob]

I think we need to get rferries and Lanth Sor to vote at least so that the contest does not ends up with a top 3 that is The Cultist of Tiamat then The Dracocleptor then the dragon.
(it would be sad if the potential candidates for first place get removed because they did forget to vote)

I am worried: Jormengad had problems and now you too.

Also since when does the base class contest considers class completion optional for getting listed in the votes?

[The Kool]

3rd: The Cultist of Tiamat; Use of theme was what ultimately pushed this class over the edge for me, but the concept for the class feels too narrow for a base class and many of the class' features are very underwhelming (I'm looking at you Chromatic Blast and Chromatic Resistance)

Narrow it was indeed, with more cook time I wanted to add some width to the class, but I couldn't figure out a good way to do so on theme given that I rushed it. And if the chromatic blast and resistance felt underwhelming to you, then I hit my balance goal perfectly. This ability was never intended to be their go-to, rather serving as a fall-back or filler option for when you need to throw some basic attacks around. Similarly, spellcasting was designed to be held in reserve because if you want a full caster, just go play a cleric or wizard. This unfortunately leaves a hole for what the class is doing when they're not dropping their few spells or filler attacks, and aren't high enough level to be ordering dragons around. Perhaps in a future iteration I'll find something to fit in here.

[noob]

Narrow it was indeed, with more cook time I wanted to add some width to the class, but I couldn't figure out a good way to do so on theme given that I rushed it. And if the chromatic blast and resistance felt underwhelming to you, then I hit my balance goal perfectly. This ability was never intended to be their go-to, rather serving as a fall-back or filler option for when you need to throw some basic attacks around. Similarly, spellcasting was designed to be held in reserve because if you want a full caster, just go play a cleric or wizard. This unfortunately leaves a hole for what the class is doing when they're not dropping their few spells or filler attacks, and aren't high enough level to be ordering dragons around. Perhaps in a future iteration I'll find something to fit in here.

Your class have a fast spellcasting progression.
Also the way you did your class is generic enough for being adaptable as being a disciple of bahamut or of chronothingie with minor changes and even have the same class do all three depending on alignment.

[The Kool]

Fast spellcasting? Not really. In fact, for the mid levels, the level of spell he can cast is actually one lower than that of a wizard or cleric. It's not until higher levels that he starts to catch back up, and he doesn't fully catch up until level 17, when he gets access to a level 9 slot at the same time as a wizard or cleric would. From there on, he gains higher slots which can either act as level 9 slots with higher save DCs, allowing him to cast more of his big guns per day (dominate 5 dragons? Don't mind if I do) or cast metamagicked versions of his lower spells. Getting a few mid level blasty spells, this class actually benefits from things like Maximize and Empower, Twin Spell too. Fireball from a 12th level slot? Yeah, how about saving vs an average of 80 damage, then doing so again, in the same round? At least that's the vision. The spells are few but pack a punch.

[noob]

Fast spellcasting? Not really. In fact, for the mid levels, the level of spell he can cast is actually one lower than that of a wizard or cleric. It's not until higher levels that he starts to catch back up, and he doesn't fully catch up until level 17, when he gets access to a level 9 slot at the same time as a wizard or cleric would. From there on, he gains higher slots which can either act as level 9 slots with higher save DCs, allowing him to cast more of his big guns per day (dominate 5 dragons? Don't mind if I do) or cast metamagicked versions of his lower spells. Getting a few mid level blasty spells, this class actually benefits from things like Maximize and Empower, Twin Spell too. Fireball from a 12th level slot? Yeah, how about saving vs an average of 80 damage, then doing so again, in the same round? At least that's the vision. The spells are few but pack a punch.

Maybe a more regular progression(one spell level every 2 levels) would benefit this class at low level.

[The Kool]

Maybe a more regular progression(one spell level every 2 levels) would benefit this class at low level.

Probably, but I didn't want to risk it feeling like a full caster. I have, I think, four different progressions up on my personal notes.

Thought for all... Would this class work well if some blood-magic themed abilities were added in? Or is that crossing themes too much?

Another thought... I know what would work well at low levels! Rituals. Along the theme of Invocations, Rituals take time and work better with people involved. I would like to structure it in such a way that the entire party can participate regardless of class, and the result is mild buffs that are worthwhile, perhaps some divination options. Things that can be granted as class abilities usable whenever, as long as the party has time to sit down for a while. This would supplement the spell slots nicely, allowing it to be the primary spellcasting identity of the class.

[Alabenson]

Probably, but I didn't want to risk it feeling like a full caster. I have, I think, four different progressions up on my personal notes.

Thought for all... Would this class work well if some blood-magic themed abilities were added in? Or is that crossing themes too much?

Another thought... I know what would work well at low levels! Rituals. Along the theme of Invocations, Rituals take time and work better with people involved. I would like to structure it in such a way that the entire party can participate regardless of class, and the result is mild buffs that are worthwhile, perhaps some divination options. Things that can be granted as class abilities usable whenever, as long as the party has time to sit down for a while. This would supplement the spell slots nicely, allowing it to be the primary spellcasting identity of the class.

I think that could be an interesting idea, and depending on how you structured them you could even have the Rituals completely supplant the spellcasting entirely, possibly strengthening Chromatic Blast slightly to take up the slack as the class' active option in combat.

It's hard for me to really comment on the class' spellcasting, however, since you weren't able to complete a class spell list. Depending on what the spell list is comprised of the class could wind up subject to serious balance issues in either direction, which makes it very hard to gauge.

[Lanth Sor]

Second place: The Wyrm
I like the flavor, I like it a lot, but the abilities just come across all out of balance. Some mean nothing, and some are vastly overpowered and understated. This class has a lot of potential, I'd be happy to see a future revision. All in all though, the more unique flavor juuuust squeaked you into second.

Could you clarify the balance concerns.

First place: Wyrm
It is quite a cool class even through it is a bit overkill for a low op party it will fit well when compared to medium optimization party with casters or when compared to mythos classes.
Maybe there should be suggestions on how to tone it down?

Once I refine it if still needed definitely.

2nd: The Wyrm; While I think this class has a ton of potential, it has an excessive amount of resource management and several of its abilities felt a little rough.

Initially I gave it more class features then I had the brain to come up with viable options for. I wanted to add casting as its kinda core to the dragon ideal, but to much power lead me to snipping the class features. I'm thinking of making the caster/psion an archetype, and martial maneuvers are just going to baked in using the system already listed.

[Alabenson]

Initially I gave it more class features then I had the brain to come up with viable options for. I wanted to add casting as its kinda core to the dragon ideal, but to much power lead me to snipping the class features. I'm thinking of making the caster/psion an archetype, and martial maneuvers are just going to baked in using the system already listed.

I'm going to go back to my earlier suggestion that you may want to drop the caster/psion/initiator aspect and refocus on the anima / adrenaline based features. Between those you already have a gish with a very unique feel to it, but juggling those two sets of abilities plus additional casting feels like it could be a bit overwhelming for the player and overkill overall.

[The Kool]

Sure I can clarify. The Wyrm Mind, for one, allows even limited-access "casting" archetypes potentially unlimited access to new maneuvers and powers. Maneuvers as a specific example are always 'ready', removing one of the limitations of the system, with a fair number usable per encounter. Incite Primeval Instinct is rather significant in how much it applies to on top of a full BAB class. DR equal to class level when called upon is high for a base class, and sits significantly higher than the barbarian's own DR (our resident tough guy) the rest of the time. Unimpeachable strike is just... what? Auto crit on a DC that scales WAY faster than saves will. A high ceiling lets this class Ubercharge from above for massive damage, straight out of the can. Free teleportation if you're willing to keep your wealth in a few different places. Free leadership (strongest feat in the game by stupidly far) and epic leadership at 13th level. Not to mention that ability and the dominion ability are completely off-theme for the rest of the class's abilities, this entirely class is just too strong. Maybe it would work fine in actual play where you wanted to play it straight at a table where everyone else was high optimization, but it's just too strong.

[Lanth Sor]

Sure I can clarify. The Wyrm Mind, for one, allows even limited-access "casting" archetypes potentially unlimited access to new maneuvers and powers. Maneuvers as a specific example are always 'ready', removing one of the limitations of the system, with a fair number usable per encounter.

This is one thing i'll be reviewing the most its honestly the one thing that mechanically was the most experimental. Other then how adrenaline works.

Incite Primeval Instinct is rather significant in how much it applies to on top of a full BAB class. DR equal to class level when called upon is high for a base class, and sits significantly higher than the barbarian's own DR (our resident tough guy) the rest of the time.

My opinion on DR is its vastly underused, level 20 having 10/- if your lucky is sad and you should be ashamed of yourself. The DR here is limited by both adrenaline and in the case of Incite Primeval Instinct 1-5 rounds after hitting 50% hp.

Unimpeachable strike is just... what? Auto crit on a DC that scales WAY faster than saves will.

Yeah this one was a bit over-tuned. The DC scale was intended to represent its not something your able to avoid, but the Damage could definitely be nerfed.

A high ceiling lets this class Ubercharge from above for massive damage, straight out of the can.

The first step is getting above someone. Jumping become rather core if you take that ability. The source ability does sneak attack progression plus the height damage.

Free teleportation if you're willing to keep your wealth in a few different places.

This is mostly thematic and allows for protecting your hoard.

Free leadership (strongest feat in the game by stupidly far) and epic leadership at 13th level.

Leadership is something that is miss managed from the stories I hear, and it add a lot to a game. I always felt the idea of epic leadership was a terrible farce, it should be one thing otherwise how do kings work.

Not to mention that ability and the dominion ability are completely off-theme for the rest of the class's abilities, this entirely class is just too strong. Maybe it would work fine in actual play where you wanted to play it straight at a table where everyone else was high optimization, but it's just too strong.

Dominion is your followers becoming the enforcers of your will. An extension of the wyrm themselves. But it definitely fits my tables general power level.

I'll post the official version and include some alternatives for lower tier play.

[The Kool]

In retuning this, consider how difficult it would be to build as an ubercharger. If the answer is 'easily, with feats and WBL leftover' then you're probably aiming too high.

[Alabenson]

In retuning this, consider how difficult it would be to build as an ubercharger. If the answer is 'easily, with feats and WBL leftover' then you're probably aiming too high.

Honestly, I don't find this to be particularly useful advise. The main components of an ubercharger build can be reached by ANY functional melee class without any difficulty. The only facet of an ubercharger build that requires any sort of effort to acquire (and isn't even strictly speaking necessary to the build) would be the ability to move and make a full attack in the same round. Which, frankly, is something that should be native to every fully melee-focused class regardless.

Edit:
To elaborate, most of the function of the ubercharger's one trick comes from a combination of Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, both of which could be acquired by level 9 by just about any class with at least 3/4 BaB and Jump as a class skill. Add in a couple of bonus feats, say from starting as a human with a fighter level or two, and you can have an ubercharger able to make full attacks on a charge with DC 20 Jump check once per encounter through Martial Study and the Sudden Jump maneuver. All of this is almost entirely independent of the character's actual class.
Meanwhile, the ability to move and make a full attack is vital to almost every combat-focused build in the game, not just the uberchargers, so declaring that feature as being "aiming too high" is really a disservice to mundanes period.

Edit again:
Taking a look at the Wyrm specifically, I think you may be overstating the severity of what the Wyrm would bring to the rest of the build. True, if you combine Astride the World, Earth Fall Strike and Adrenaline Surge with the rest of a standard ubercharge build you would have a particularly mobile charger, but the extra damage a) is reliant on fighting outdoors, which can be very campaign / encounter dependent, b) doesn't come fully online until about level 11, and most importantly c) on an ubercharger extra damage is largely redundant. Keep in mind, a classic ubercharger will typically be dealing enough damage to reduce their opponents to chunky salsa after one full attack charge anyway, so having them go from -10 to -50 is actually inconsequential to that type of build. On the other hand, these abilities make more esoteric build choice potentially viable, which is something that I think should be encouraged.

[The Kool]

All good points, and I know I'm at least heavily influenced by early 3.5 balance and not late 3.5 balance like many people are.

That said, I just really really appreciate that rant being immediately followed by the first line in your sig

[Lanth Sor]

New suggestions?
Veggies - You wont believe our tales.
Fruits - Its all in the basket.
Rolli Polie Olie - He's Short, he's Smart, He's Round
Super Heroes/Villains - From Eye Beams to Batarangs.
Dungeons - I like to hide from dragons in ...
Poetry - An Ode to Poe
MEETAAALLL!!!! YEOAH!!!!!!! - As metal book just came out.
A Martial Matter - in spirit of reopening the Martial Adept threads.

[noob]

How about a constructs or crafting theme?
(although it might fit into metal)

[The Kool]

I like "Metal", "Dungeons", and "Fruits and Veggies". No suggestions of my own at this time.

[Alabenson]

Well, while we're waiting for the voting to finish, I'll toss out a few suggestions of my own;
Travel
Shadows
Arabian Nights
Time

[Lanth Sor]

I have an Inquiry. Is rewritting a abandoned work of another author acceptable?
Specifically for shadow I'd want to do the umbramandex

[Alabenson]

I have an Inquiry. Is rewritting a abandoned work of another author acceptable?
Specifically for shadow I'd want to do the umbramandex

I'd say that would heavily depend on how thoroughly you intend on rewriting the class in question; borrowing a few elements to round out your class or using the basics as a foundation for an entirely new class would probably be alright, but if you're just finishing an incomplete work than I'd say it could run afoul of the "Can't be previously posted" rule.

[Lanth Sor]

Fair enough.

5. Dungeons - I like to hide from dragons in ...
4. Poetry - An Ode to Poe
3. MEETAAALLL!!!! YEOAH!!!!!!! - As metal book just came out.
1. A Martial Matter - in spirit of reopening the Martial Adept threads.
2. Time

have my votes

[Lanth Sor]

3: Wrym. I like the mechanics and options of this class the best but it has some serious balance issues.

Thanks, and I would appreciate aid with those.

7th level auto demoralize anyone within range basically means that with a moderate amount of optimization and imperious command anyone within that aura is cowering forever. Let alone their automatic 30ft cone of the skill at level 1.

Frankly I initially was thinking of giving frighting presence, I haven't had much interaction with people intimidating on that level so its just an oversight thanx for pointing it out. I'll be shifting this back to frighting presence. Do you think the level 1 intimidate is a cone with leveling range of like 5ft/level cone be ok?

Plus they get EPIC LEADERSHIP AT 13th!?!?! And the ability to have their leadership score equal their intimidate bonus? Skills can be boosted sky high and at 13th level you can easily have level 20 "Followers" around you with this feature.

Its not possible to have level 20 followers unless your level 60 as I limited followers to 1/3 class level, so level 6 followers at best by 20. The allowance for massive scores is mostly intended to allow for massive armies of mooks.
Additionally you don't have direct control of them. As the ability states their more of a cult. The ability is kind of a throw back to fighters keeps in 1-2e

Several other abilities are worded a bit unclearly and the class has a bunch of cool mechAanics spread over ~4 different sections. If the class was cleaned up and underwent some heavy rebalancing it would of easily taken top slot for me.

Could you clarify what you were referring to here?

[Alabenson]

So, while we wait for the voting to wrap up (in retrospect I think having voting last 4 weeks was a little excessive but live and learn), I'm going to tally up the votes we have for the next theme.

Crafting: 1
Metal: 2
Dungeons: 2
Fruits/Vegetables: 1
Travel: 1
Shadows: 1
Arabian Nights: 1
Time: 2
Poetry: 1
Martial: 1

So, looking over this it looks like the three that are pulling ahead of the group so far are Metal, Dungeons and Time. I'll leave voting to continue until 4/12 when I'll post the new contest with the winning theme so until then keep voting.

[rferries]

I vote for Arabian Nights! Also I think in future we should have a limit on how many theme votes we get (though we might be able to make an unlimited number of theme proposals).