Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

[Silva Stormrage]

I vote for Dungeons.

[noob]

I vote for metal.

[Silva Stormrage]

Thanks, and I would appreciate aid with those.



Frankly I initially was thinking of giving frighting presence, I haven't had much interaction with people intimidating on that level so its just an oversight thanx for pointing it out. I'll be shifting this back to frighting presence. Do you think the level 1 intimidate is a cone with leveling range of like 5ft/level cone be ok?



Its not possible to have level 20 followers unless your level 60 as I limited followers to 1/3 class level, so level 6 followers at best by 20. The allowance for massive scores is mostly intended to allow for massive armies of mooks.
Additionally you don't have direct control of them. As the ability states their more of a cult. The ability is kind of a throw back to fighters keeps in 1-2e



Could you clarify what you were referring to here?

Alright here is my general review in depth for the class.

Wyrm Presence: As noted earlier all intimidate bonuses and abilities need to take into account imperious command which turns any demoralize attempt into an incredibly powerful lockdown tool because of how easy it is to boost skill checks with items and various other abilities. I would recommend just removing the demoralize concept entirely and swap it to frightful presence or just a simple save versus shaken. Maybe have a frightful presence aura granted later and keep the cone as a "Fear" breath weapon that applies shaken as well (Stacking with the frightful presence for frightened status). For the Anima Pool, when is it refreshed? Is it per day? Per encounter?

Minor note but since we are dealing with dragons I would specify that you aren't treated as a TRUE dragon with this class feature since that opens up some seriously gamebreaking shenanigans and it is at the moment unclear. Probably not needed as the intent is fairly obvious but might be worth adding. Also specify what happens when you get targeted with an effect that only works on one of your subtypes. For a human wyrm are they immune to charm person due to their dragon type or do effects work if they can work on either dragon or their original type? Also leads to some interesting situations regarding undead wyrms (They are have both the undead and dragon types. Are they healed by negative or positive energy? Are they counted as living creatures?) But I am not sure that part is relevant to address and can be left up to the DM.

Drake's Blood: I would move the Anima pool feature here just so that the player reading the class understands both of their pools come from the same class feature and can easily find them. Minor formatting thing really. For actual mechanics I would specify what happens when 1) The creature is immune to fatigue/exhaustion/etc. 2) The wyrm is knocked unconscious, how does he get back up? Does he need to wait 5 minutes? I am not sure if being knocked unconscious due to straining yourself and pushing yourself past your limits counts as a "Rest".

Adrenaline Surge: Cool ability flavorful and really not gamebreaking. I would specify 1) The action it takes to use (I imagine free) and 2) Wether it is Ex, Su, etc.

Limit Break: Might need to explain this one a bit more for those of us not familiar with FFd20. Does the Wyrm get both of these abilities immediately or do they choose one? Are there any feats in FFd20 that work on limit breaks that the wyrm can select? Lastly they both have durations of 1 round/4 class levels and you get them at first level. That means they have 0 round durations until level 4. I would throw in a minimum 1 round duration or make it 1 + 1/4 class levels. I am also immediately hesitant for all "Cost reduced to 0" abilities but I will remind myself if thats an issue when I get to that section.

Wyrm Mind: Most of these are pretty good. However, you don't specify what ability score affects Spell/Maneuver DC or extra Spell Slots/PP's. I imagine Cha but you do need to specify it.

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• Eldritch Power: Make it so that they can use light armor at 2nd level, medium at 9th and heavy at 15th instead of slowly increasing the reduction in arcane spell failure. That makes it much easier to manage and easier to play with. You mention that the wyrm can only select a non divine class but then clarify what happens when the class isn't arcane? Is there a 9th level spellcasting class that ISN'T arcane or divine?
• Martial Adept: Okay so I assume the intent is they can only learn maneuvers from your selected schools. You didn't actually specify that and just say that they can learn maneuvers from scrolls or individuals. You later reference a limit to the number of "core" maneuvers you can have but I can't find that anywhere. You also don't specify wether or not you need to meet the prereqs for any maneuver you attempt to learn. I am not sure if that is your intent or not but I think thats pretty mandatory. Also I will note that at level 6 the wyrm is strictly better than pretty much every martial adept due to being able to cherry pick any maneuver they wish from multiple schools. I would reduce their IL to 3/4 class level. Lastly, do they gain stances? If so does the adrenaline cost not apply? Or does it apply when entering the stance?
• Psionic Mastery: Mostly good, I am frankly just curious about what list they use if they select Ardent due to them not really having a specific "Power List".

Wyrm Miens: Not trying to be nitpicky here but not sure why you get these at 2nd/5th/9th/13th instead of an even 2nd/6th/10th/14th. Still some of these are way too powerful

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• Arctic Soul. Cool effect but you are essentially applying a better version of slow (A really good effect) not only on every single one of your attacks but ALSO on any enemy attacking you AND it deals nice damage on top of it. It's just too strong of an effect at level 2. Mechanical clear up that is also needed. You don't specify the damage is cold and for the saving throw listed it's not clear if it's to negate the effect, halve the damage or what exactly. It's not clear if being immune or resistant to cold makes you immune to the chilled condition. Also you made it so that the save to remove the effect is a full round action but since they are chilled they can't take full round actions... I would remove the aspect where it damages those hitting the wyrm with natural weapons and make it so that the chill effect only applies on a critical hit.
• Draconic Aura: Good
• Dragon's Breath: Good, not sure why it can't be selected at 2nd level but still fine.
• Inferno Soul. Same changes as Arctic Soul mostly. Too strong of an effect with too much damage potential. No super slow but now it has increased damage.
• Living Blizzard: Super strong low levels but fairly mediocre mid/high. I would make it so that the chill effect only applies to creatures with less than 1/2 the wyrms class level (Round up) HD. How long does the anima boost last, one turn? Also can the wyrm turn this off? Because otherwise they will kill every commoner and be unable to ever enter a city.
• Living Inferno: Same as above
• Unapproachable: Will wait to get to wyrm Domain
• Untouchable: Okay this is way too strong. With any moderate amount of optimization intimidate checks scale waaaay faster than attack rolls. This is essentially "Block Cha Mod + 1/2 Class Levels" attacks as a free action any number of times per round. Make this an immediate action so it can only be used once per round and then I would suggest making it only apply to creatures whom you have applied the shaken condition to during this encounter.
• Wings of the Wyrm: Not too strong but it's kind weird that the first level you can take this is 5th and you get a bonus at 5th level to it's maneuverability?
• Wyrm Sense: Good

Wyrm Hide: This is way too much DR at this level. You can easily get DR 5/- and by spending an easily renewed resources boost it up to DR 8/-. I would reduce the DR to half con mod plus 1/4 class levels and then the adrenaline boost increases it to 1/2 class levels.

Drake’s Blood Techniques:

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• Astride the World: Minor note here, jump checks have a clause that if you jump further than your move speed it takes multiple rounds to finish the jump. Not sure if it’s intended or not for you to take several minutes to finish jumping with this ability. Also these are some insane jump checks. I mean it’s also jump checks so I am not sure it’s really that strong either… still I can easily see Wyrms jumping 4000 feet with this at level 7. If your intent is for it to happen in one round I think it might be necessary to cut back the jump check bonus to like 10ft instead of 100.
• Earth Fall Strike: There are ways to negate falling damage entirely. If a wyrm gets one of those features at level 3 they can add 20d6 to any attack they deal if they have some method of flight (Not impossible). I would just make it so that the wyrm gets a +1 bonus to hit and damage per 10ft of downward movement on the first attack of a charge (Maximum +10 for both).
• Evade The Drake’s Breathe: What action is it to spend the adrenaline? Does this movement provoke AOO’s? As written this ability also allows you to phase through walls/floors/ceilings if those areas are closer in distance. Lastly does the movement happen before or after you pass the saving throw? It’s way too strong of an ability if you can just use it to automatically pass any reflex save. Make it so you can spend a point of adrenaline if you pass the reflex save not if you fail it.
• Intuit Danger: Good
• Irrational Stride: I am not sure what this ability does? Is it like a teleport? Could you use it to move through a wall of thorns? A solid fog? If I am reading this ability correctly it might be simpler to just say it “Grants the wyrm freedom of movement for a single round and his movement does not provoke attack of opportunities”.
• Lifeblood Unending: “Bloodied” is not a condition I am familiar with? Do you mean injured? I would probably also cap the fast healing to heal at most up to 1/2 your HP. You also don’t state how long the adrenaline increase lasts.
• Sense of the Dragon. That is a lot of senses added most not super relevant. Getting + Class level on spot checks though is massive. I would halve the bonus to the various skills.
• Unimpeachable Strike: Okay this one is a doozy. The main issue is the fact that it’s an automatic critical hit and ignores penalties to attack rolls. This means that every single wyrm is going to pick up this ability, get power attack and just start killing everything with a scythe. Seriously at level 3 you can easily get to (2d4 (Weapon) + (1.5 * 6) (STR) + 1 ( Magic Weapon) + 6 (Power Attack)) *4 = 84 damage on every swing. That instantly kills anyone at that level. I frankly would just remove this ability, auto hits are too difficult to balance in D&D 3.5. You also forgot to mention wether or not the save was to negate the attack or for half damage.
• Vengance of the Scarred Lord: I am not sure what you mean by “This is not sneak attack damage” and you didn’t specify the action to spend the point of adrenaline if there is an action.
• Wyrms Ascent. Still boosting jump checks for some reason? Not really sure why but this ability is fine.

Wyrm Horde: Cool ability, what happens if some of the horde is stolen so that it no longer is valued at 100 * class level squared? Do you stop being able to open a portal back to your base? Also why is it a first level spell. It should be at least 7th because of greater teleport? The only real change is I would probably push this back to 8th or 9th level. Same level as wizards and such start to be able to teleport long distances.

Wyrm Domain: Already mentioned this previously but ya I would just make it frightful presence.

Wyrm’s Dominance: Okay you are right that I missed the level cap. It’s still obscene. You should be very careful with any pre epic character getting anything like Epic Leadership. And you made it scale much much much faster than leadership score since you can easily with optimization get intimidate up to +90 at this level. With just a rough estimate with moderate optimization I was able to get ~100-200 level 4 characters. Besides the logistical nightmare of using them in combat that also renders any enemy not immune to spells instantly dead from magic missile spam.

Leadership also has the problem of being instantly banned at most tables I have seen. If you want to give the wyrm a majestic and leadership like quality I would instead give them bonuses to diplomacy and a limit amount of charm/dominate person effects. You could also give them Landlord from Stronghold Builder’s Guide as a bonus feat. That feat gives you money that you can only spend on a “Stronghold”, make it so that the wyrm can only use it to enhance or defend their lair.

Soul of the Wyrm: Remember how I said True Dragon’s mess everything up? Ya I wouldn’t recommend giving yourself the true dragon type explicitly. There are a lot of shenanigans that can be done with that, though most of them don’t matter really at 20th level. It might be fine but I am still hesitant towards any feature that gives that XD.


Sorry for being overly critical in my review but I do think it’s a great concept it just has a few balance points that I think need fixing. As for the abilities scattered about comment that seemed to be less of an issue once I gave it more of an in-depth look. When I first looked over the class it looked like it had 5 different sections for abilities (Limit Breaks, Wrym Meins, Wrym Minds, and Drakes Blood Techniques) which used two different pools of resources. I think in play though it would be mostly straightforward, though I wouldn’t recommend it to a player who doesn’t want any complexity beyond a fighter. I look forward to seeing a rework if you agree with any of my suggestions

[Lanth Sor]

I'll be addressing the concerns in the repost. Some changes will be in the form of ACF with notes to DM about use if they wish to disallow mechanics like leadership.

Originally I had miens and techniques at alternating even/odd levels.

[Alabenson]

On a similar note, when I repost the Dracocleptor I'm thinking of chancing the ray version of their breath weapon to simply deal double normal damage (dealing triple damage under Ambush Breath). Overall that should be a reduction in damage output while still making the single-target ray a useful trade-off.

[Alabenson]

Well, voting is officially closed. The winner of 1st place is The Cultist of Tiamat by The Kool, followed by a tie between The Draconian by rferries and The Wyrm by Lanth Sor.

As I said earlier, I'll put up the next contest on the 12th, until then people can continue to vote for the theme they would prefer. As for an update on the votes so far:

Dungeons: 3
Metal: 3
Arabian Nights: 2
Time: 2
Poetry: 1
Martial: 1
Fruits/Vegetables: 1
Travel: 1
Shadows: 1

[Unavenger]

I vote time, because 3-way ties are fun.

[Lanth Sor]

A Time Dungeon of Metal

[noob]

A Time Dungeon of Metal

we quest for a metal made of time in that dungeon!
Or "this metal music about dungeons is atemporal"

[MrNobody]

I don't know if i'll manage to partecipate but i vote time too.

I have in mind a rogue-like timestealer... maybe i'll gather (steal?) the time to write it down!

[Alabenson]

And with 4 votes the winning theme for this contest is...Time!

Congratulations, have a contest thread

[The Kool]

I do believe I will participate this time. Currently envisioning a time warrior type, a bit different from the one already posted, very very nasty at higher levels.

[Lanth Sor]

Silva a suggestion about "Dark", I have taken to rewording it as Esoteric as that is more the vein it encompasses, being only really dark for standard warlocks.

[Alabenson]

Well, the zeitmeister is essentially finished. I'm particularly curious what people think of the capstone, which might need a little polishing to clarify how it works.

[The Kool]

Aaaaaand I hereby retire my attempt at this, as being too similar to yours. That capstone is too similar to what I was aiming for.

In my version, the warrior is a full BAB class and has various focus on speeding up and slowing down, some limited ability to wind back time on themselves for removing conditions and damage, but the speeding up is the core ability. Starting with a haste effect, eventually growing into a full second turn every round, and maybe even a third (though that's probably just OP). I do like yours, mine would wind up different, but I think it's similar enough to be maybe not worth detailing.

[MoleMage]

It's been a while since I did any homebrew for 3.5, and the concept itself is a little bit of a mixed bag, so this class is probably all over the place, but the first early draft of the Epoch Walker is out there. I plan to finish the other three Epochs next, then work on filling out the many dead levels with stuff though I'm not sure what stuff as yet, then finally write the fluff. Interested to hear how the concept is received though.

[Silva Stormrage]

Silva a suggestion about "Dark", I have taken to rewording it as Esoteric as that is more the vein it encompasses, being only really dark for standard warlocks.

Ya I was going to see if there was a fitting time word because ya "Dark" invocations reaaaally don't fit the theme much. Dark was just a placeholder for now.

[MoleMage]

Ya I was going to see if there was a fitting time word because ya "Dark" invocations reaaaally don't fit the theme much. Dark was just a placeholder for now.

Eternal, or Timeless both seem fitting, if you still wanted to go the class-specific invocation tier names.

[Silva Stormrage]

Eternal, or Timeless both seem fitting, if you still wanted to go the class-specific invocation tier names.

Ooooh I do like timeless. Thanks!

Also Lanth Sor... we seem to have similar ideas. That being an invocation/psionic class which can spend "Temporal" points to improve their invocations and other abilities...

I am somewhat surprised since I thought I was being original when I had this thought and there aren't many psionic invocation type classes.

[Lanth Sor]

I'm a big advocate for "Kill Vancian Magic" and like resource management. As a result a lot of my design includes point systems. I have been playing around with a tweak to the warlock that uses "Demonic Power™" to augment invocations, but make the base ones ok with out investment, ala 5e cantrips. But my idea is more going to be about seeing all of time and application of knowledge or finding the right knowledge, Plus T.A.R.D.I.S. is just fun.

[rferries]

I've been racking my brains for inspiration but I'm going to sit this one out I think. However I eagerly anticipate the Timelord!

[MoleMage]

Just to prove to myself that I haven't forgotten it, an update to the Epoch Walker is up! I added most of the descriptives and class basics (still need to do skills) in rough format, and also added the Savage Epoch (the defensive fighting choice to match with Primordial's offensive). That leaves Primitive and Civilized still to go plus filling out missing levels.

[Silva Stormrage]

Nice! We only have three entries that look like they will be finished so I hope everyone finishes theirs.

On that note I finished the rough draft of my Azure Sandweaver. Now I just need to edit for wording and balance issues (Aiming for well built sorcerer level). If anyone is confused about how an ability works let me know so I can clarify/edit it. Clarity of writing is not my strong suit and there are a lot of weird abilities in this class XD.

Also I ran out of space in my invocations section so I had to make another post at the bottom of the thread sorry. Not sure if there was a better way of handling that. I probably should of reserved a third post.

[MoleMage]

Last two Epochs have effects and skills, and one of them has feats. I think I can still make this deadline.

EDIT: Feats for Primitive Epoch and two new features. Still have more dead levels than I'd like, but it's getting better. I can make this deadline.

[Alabenson]

Alright, with the contest deadline coming up this Friday we appear to have about 3 completed entries. With that in mind, would anyone like to have an extension, or should we just move on?

[Silva Stormrage]

I have a friend who is about ~95% done with an entry atm. He should be done by the deadline but knowing him he will finish it pretty close to the deadline...

[Alabenson]

I have a friend who is about ~95% done with an entry atm. He should be done by the deadline but knowing him he will finish it pretty close to the deadline...

If that's the case I think I'll push back the deadline by a week to the 31st so your friend has enough time to finish since I'd prefer to have at least 4 completed entries.

[Silva Stormrage]

If that's the case I think I'll push back the deadline by a week to the 31st so your friend has enough time to finish since I'd prefer to have at least 4 completed entries.

Well I did say he would finish close to the deadline

If you want to revert the challenge to the previous deadline feel free since he has finished his entry.

[Alabenson]

Well I did say he would finish close to the deadline

If you want to revert the challenge to the previous deadline feel free since he has finished his entry.

I don't I'm going to revert it, one week isn't too much time to wait for those who are already finished, and if there is someone who was planning on making use of that extra week I don't want to take it away from them.

[Alabenson]

Get ready to rock the voting thread