Base Class Contest Chat Thread V: I Scored at the Top of My Base Class

[Gideon Falcon]

The next contest theme should be "Time is on our side (No it isn't)!", which is about being late to everything and having terrible time management skills and just generally being a millennial.

[Silva Stormrage]

1st; The Azure Sandweaver; To be honest, this is probably one of my favorite entries that I've seen in any of these contests in a while. I'm a big fan of invoker-based classes in general, and this class has a lot going for it both with and without it's invocations. My main concerns with it would be some minor concerns with regards to the mechanics behind Sands of Time and questions as to whether the class has enough invocations on its list given it's large number of invocations known, but these are fairly minor gripes overall.

Thanks! what concerns do you have with Sands of Time out of curiosity?

I do have ~80 invocations which is ~10-15 more than warlocks have (Though Warlocks get about half as many invocations overall). Still you are probably right since a not insignificant chunk of the invocations I have now are fairly flavor/research orientated which might not be relevant for all games. I was running out of appropriate time themed invocations though near the end XD. Maybe after this contest I will be able to think of a few more. I think ~15 per section would be a solid amount.

Also for voting, is voting generally supposed to be "Which class you personally would prefer to play" or "Which class is better designed". I am struggling between the Warper and the Zeitmeister for 1st and 2nd atm.

Warper
Pros: I would definitely prefer to play this class, it has far more utility and various abilities as well as actions per round which I generally prefer. It's gameplay is varied and it has a lot of fairly unique mechanics. It's pretty solid tier 3 that can do a variety of things but doesn't really have any broken mechanics.
Cons: As noted elsewhere due to the low amount of Chrono Powers every Warper is essentially going to be the same character mechanically. A lot of the abilities have some clunky mechanics (Flux feats that cause you to reduce damage by a third then subtract wisdom modifier is just obnoxious to calculate). The fluff overall is a bit lacking and it feels like it's lacking in a solid theme.

Zeitmeister
Pros: Solid design and it feels like a more tightly designed chassis. It's core theme and mechanics all mesh well and support each other. Feels like a spelltheif mixed with swiftblade to be perfectly honest and both of those classes are actually pretty cool.
Cons: It's not really the type of class I would generally play so that certainly factors into it. I dislike some of the mechanical choices like front loading wisdom to hit and damage and ac. It feels like for this class if I allowed it in a campaign players would just start dipping it for one-two levels to gain those bonuses if they are any kind of a wisdom gish. Zen Archery in particular. Tempus Ambulat is a class feature that is very cool but I kinda feel like is dramatically overpowered at that level. Considering you can just freeze time, grab a bunch of ingested or contact poison and apply 10 doses or some nonsense like that to an enemy in a time stop. At this level there isn't much that enemies could do to stop that. And thats not even counting the out of combat utility like stealing things.

Also as a question for Zeitmeister, do you have to provide XP or material components for spells duplicated with spell echo?

I will probably decide sometime this weekend, it just feels like both of their pros and cons in my head are about different aspects of the classes so it's hard to narrow this one down XD

[Alabenson]

Thanks! what concerns do you have with Sands of Time out of curiosity?

I'm a little leary of an ability which breaks down to "destroy any non-magical, non-adamantine object with less than 125 cubic foot volume in 10 minutes at will", which potentially obsolesces any non-magical barriers the players might run into right at level 1. At the very least I'd want to know what the effect of partially fading an object is, since the effect is described as a gradual process.

I do have ~80 invocations which is ~10-15 more than warlocks have (Though Warlocks get about half as many invocations overall). Still you are probably right since a not insignificant chunk of the invocations I have now are fairly flavor/research orientated which might not be relevant for all games. I was running out of appropriate time themed invocations though near the end XD. Maybe after this contest I will be able to think of a few more. I think ~15 per section would be a solid amount.

I may have miscounted the number of invocations you had, if you have that many than I suppose you should be fine. A rule of thumb I typically try to follow is that a class should have at least three times as many options as it can actually take.

Zeitmeister
Cons: It's not really the type of class I would generally play so that certainly factors into it. I dislike some of the mechanical choices like front loading wisdom to hit and damage and ac. It feels like for this class if I allowed it in a campaign players would just start dipping it for one-two levels to gain those bonuses if they are any kind of a wisdom gish. Zen Archery in particular. Tempus Ambulat is a class feature that is very cool but I kinda feel like is dramatically overpowered at that level. Considering you can just freeze time, grab a bunch of ingested or contact poison and apply 10 doses or some nonsense like that to an enemy in a time stop. At this level there isn't much that enemies could do to stop that. And thats not even counting the out of combat utility like stealing things.

These are fair points. I tried to put limits on Tempus Ambulat to limit its in-combat utility, hence the restriction to move actions, but it sounds like I might want to tighten the restrictions on the ability to effect other creatures a bit more. My goal for the ability was more focused on out of combat utility, such as infiltration or theft, as you mentioned

Also as a question for Zeitmeister, do you have to provide XP or material components for spells duplicated with spell echo?

As the ability is currently written a strict RAW interpretation would probably be no, but that's something that I'm definitely going to change at least for XP components after voting is over.

[Silva Stormrage]

I'm a little leary of an ability which breaks down to "destroy any non-magical, non-adamantine object with less than 125 cubic foot volume in 10 minutes at will", which potentially obsolesces any non-magical barriers the players might run into right at level 1. At the very least I'd want to know what the effect of partially fading an object is, since the effect is described as a gradual process.

Hm you are right I probably should adjust that a bit. The intent IS so that they can tunnel into tombs and such but perhaps that should be an upgrade like Improved Fading. Also you are right fluff wise it shouldn't be an sudden turn to dust after 10 minutes. I will probably update it so it slowly wears down the item's hardness to 0. Every minute reduces it's hardness by 10% until 10 minutes where it hits 0 and disintegrates, that works fairly well.

[Alabenson]

2nd: Zeitmeister It was a tossup between this and the Warper for 1st. I think the Zeitmeister is a much more well designed class, the abilities flow together and it has a solid chassis. It feels like a mix between the spell thief and the swiftblade. But it has some slight issues that made me pick the Warper over it. 1) It's too frontloaded for dipping which I don't particularly like. Any zen archery build can pick this up fairly easily for a massive boost in effectiveness. 2) Most of it's combat options are either full attack or rely on your enemies or allies to cast spells for you to duplicate. Tempus Ambulat works in combat but I struggle to find a way to use it which isn't just "Dump a whole bunch of poison down their throats" which has it's own issues. Overall despite being a more concise and well built class I think the Warper is a class I would rather play.

I've been thinking about these criticisms and I have an idea as to how to address them. What I'm thinking would be to eliminate Combat Prescience from 1st level (leaving its progression at later levels the same) and instead add an ability that would work similar to sneak attack, only instead of extra damage the target would have to make a Will Save or be flatfooted for a number of rounds, with options to slow or daze the target coming online at levels 10 and 19 respectively. This would reduce the problematic dippability of the class while giving it something extra to do during combat.

[Temotei]

As far as how you should go about voting, it's always been a process left up to the voters. One person might vote for the one they'd most like to play, another might vote for one they think is the most playable, and one might vote for the one they think is the greatest achievement in homebrewing. None of them are right or wrong.

[MoleMage]

Silva, your comments about the Epoch Walker's power delivery are entirely correct. I somehow thought I had written it to increase the available SLA uses much more quickly than that on the Chaotic Epoch (the Domain Spells of the Civilized Epoch should have lined up with the Chaotic's SLAs much more closely). I also wasn't sure when I first wrote those how much power I would be able to fit into the base class, and it turned out that for the most part I could only fit utility abilities without stepping on the Epochs' toes. If I had remembered at the time, I would have gone back and put that power budget back into the Epochs; perhaps after the contest is over I'll find time to do so.

[Silva Stormrage]

As far as how you should go about voting, it's always been a process left up to the voters. One person might vote for the one they'd most like to play, another might vote for one they think is the most playable, and one might vote for the one they think is the greatest achievement in homebrewing. None of them are right or wrong.

Fair enough, I was mostly curious if there was a particular intent or not.

Silva, your comments about the Epoch Walker's power delivery are entirely correct. I somehow thought I had written it to increase the available SLA uses much more quickly than that on the Chaotic Epoch (the Domain Spells of the Civilized Epoch should have lined up with the Chaotic's SLAs much more closely). I also wasn't sure when I first wrote those how much power I would be able to fit into the base class, and it turned out that for the most part I could only fit utility abilities without stepping on the Epochs' toes. If I had remembered at the time, I would have gone back and put that power budget back into the Epochs; perhaps after the contest is over I'll find time to do so.

Ya I think if you just up the power of those choices you would end up with a much more well rounded class! I look forward to seeing it when you get around to it.


Anyone have any good themes for the next contest?

[Alabenson]

Anyone have any good themes for the next contest?

Well, if we want to start discussing themes early, I could throw out Arabian Nights, Travel and Dungeons

[noob]

Metal and stacking?

[Silva Stormrage]

Well, if we want to start discussing themes early, I could throw out Arabian Nights, Travel and Dungeons

Travel and Dungeons would be interesting.

Other options,
"Reverse" (As in take a common concept and use it for the reverse. A Doctor who specializes in damage, etc)
Biology (Anything involving living creatures, plants, etc)

Also to those of you watching this thread please vote in the contest! So far only one person who hasn't entered the contest has voted!

[Alabenson]

Just a reminder, voting closes this Friday at 10pm EST, so please vote if you haven't already.

[Alabenson]

Alright, with voting closed it appears the winner is The Azure Sandshaper by Silva Stormrage, with my own Zeitmeister coming in second and The Epoch Walker by MoleMage in third. Unfortunately, as Road_Runner did not vote the Warper does not qualify to place.

So, for the next contest the votes seem to be;
Travel; 2
Dungeons; 2
Arabian Nights; 1
Metal; 1
Stacking; 1

Keep voting for the next theme, I'll probably make the new contest next week.

[khadgar567]

you now what F it one more vote for Arabian nights let see you gent can create something for the cradle of nations.

[noob]

you now what F it one more vote for Arabian knight let see you gent can create something for the cradle of nations.

Arabian knight seems cool.

[rferries]

I'll vote for Arabian Nights too!

[Alabenson]

So, for the new vote count we have:

Travel; 2
Dungeons; 3
Arabian Nights; 4
Metal; 1
Stacking; 2
Reversal: 1
Biology; 1

I'll post the new contest on Friday, so keep voting until then.

Edited to update vote counts.

[Morphic tide]

I'd go with Stacking or Dungeons, to avoid needing to relentlessly dig through wikis for the relevant stuff. I suppose I could spit out some Sha'ir-based shenanigans, like a half-caster that mixes the casting mechanic with Kensai stuff, but I'd rather not.

[Lanth Sor]

I think I'd literally make a genie.

Spoiler

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[noob]

I did not vote for Arabian nights.

[UristMcRandom]

I was about to comment and say, "wasn't there just a contest called Dungeon Plunge-In fairly recently?" but holy schnitzel that was twenty-two contests ago!

Throw my vote in for Travel or Dungeons.

[Alabenson]

Recount for the current vote totals:

Arabian Nights: 3
Travel: 3
Dungeons: 4
Reverse: 1
Biology: 1
Metal: 1
Stacking: 2

[Morphic tide]

Recount for the current vote totals:

Arabian Nights: 4
Travel: 3
Dungeons: 4
Reverse: 1
Biology: 1
Metal: 1
Stacking: 2

Noob was observing a typo of Arabian Knight, not voting for Arabian Nights:

I did not vote for Arabian nights.

[Alabenson]

Well, it appears that dungeons won, so have a new thread

[Alabenson]

Alright, so, the deadline was supposed to be this Friday, however at the moment it appears that my entry is the only one complete, so I'm going to extend everything by another two weeks unless anyone has any particular objections.

Edit:
Also, I have a couple of questions / concerns regarding the Mirecarver's Slime Grenade ability.
* I'm assuming the number in parentheses is the maximum spell level the mirecarver can create into a slime grenade, but it doesn't seem to specify that in the text.
* I'm a little leery of giving the class mostly unrestricted access to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, even if their access does cap out at level 7 spells. Of particular concern abuse-wise is the fact that as written it appears that the mirecarver could effectively cast any spell as a standard action. As such, you may want to consider limiting their slime grenade ability to spells with casting time of 1 standard action or less.

[Silva Stormrage]

Oh wow I thought the deadline was the 12th for some reason. Whoops, the most recent Fire Emblem game has gotten me distracted XD.


You are correct on the formatting, I will have to go through and edit that to be more clear.

Nice catch on the casting time issue. They should only be able to duplicate spells that have a cast time of a standard action or less.

The overall balance should be somewhat high but they also 1) Can't use metamagic on their slime grenades, 2) Can't use immediate or swift action spells as anything other than standard actions 3) Shouldn't be able to use spells with longer than one round casting time. and 4) are limited to what is essentially bard spellcasting progression.

Benefits of their system include 1) Ability to use personal range buffs on other creatures, 2) Ability to use one round spells as standard actions and 3) more consistent use of their highest level spells.

Considering the balance point for the Mirecarver is tier 2 I think thats fair.

Also they don't have access to the entire spell list they are still restricted by the spells they learn/can find in the adventure. While in many campaigns this is a wide list DM's do still have the option of restricting spell access to some degree.

[Alabenson]

Since it caps out at 7th level spells and given its limited number of slime grenades I think the mirecarver is fine power-wise as long as the casting time issue is resolved, since that would be the main avenue I'd see for serious potential abuse.

My only other concern wouldn't be so much about power as it would how the slime grenade ability would interact with spells that either don't have a clear target or area of effect (like most divination spells) or those whose area of effect extends out from the caster (i.e. spells with an area that's a line or a cone).

[Lanth Sor]

Sworn Service (Su): The Aide gains a bond with their master that goes beyond mere desire to serve. The aide chooses a single master any further class features that reference the master are in reference to the chosen master. Changing master is an expensive process taking a 1 hour ritual and 50g x Aide Character Level². While the master no further than 1/2 a move action away, the aide is treated as adjacent to the master. The Master gains twice the normal benefit form aid actions preformed by the Aide. The Aide takes a -10 penalty to d20 roll that oppose or impede their master, and half all damage dealt to them

What innate issues can you think come form this ability. I feel like I may be opening a Irrationally large can of worms with this as written. Specifically the bold italicized line, is of concern.

[Alabenson]

What innate issues can you think come form this ability. I feel like I may be opening a Irrationally large can of worms with this as written. Specifically the bold italicized line, is of concern.

The most pressing question I would have would be what precisely is the master supposed to be, e.g. who/what could qualify as a master, what is the significance of being a master, is this meant to be a major mechanical aspect of the class or is this more of a fluff element, etc.)

Regarding the highlight portion specifically, my major question would be what the purpose of that ability would be. Does the class offer special benefits for being adjacent to the master, or is the purpose to allow the aide and master to cast touch range spells on each other from a distance?

[Lanth Sor]

The most pressing question I would have would be what precisely is the master supposed to be, e.g. who/what could qualify as a master, what is the significance of being a master, is this meant to be a major mechanical aspect of the class or is this more of a fluff element, etc.)

Regarding the highlight portion specifically, my major question would be what the purpose of that ability would be. Does the class offer special benefits for being adjacent to the master, or is the purpose to allow the aide and master to cast touch range spells on each other from a distance?

Whoever the ritual is preformed with can be the master. Only one person at a time can be the master. Several class feature will be dependent on proximity to the master. The master will have a unique position of power over the aide, due to the massive penalty the aide takes against them. The class was partly inspired based on serfs, slaves, indentured servants, hirelings, supports(Is it wrong to pick up girls in a dungeon), bodyguards, squires, maids, butlers, etc.

Yes, allowing for touch spells and aid another was intended, basically the role of familiar. My biggest concern is feats or similar effects that increased effectiveness because of it.