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Thread: Jessica Jones
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2017-06-21, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Jessica Jones
I overall like the MCU, but I'm wondering whether to continue with the Netflix series. I felt that the first Daredevil season was some of the best-made TV I've ever seen. But while the second one was also amazingly well-crafted, it slipped from "adult-themed" to "miserable". As far as I can tell, the only thing Daredevil actually achieved was rescuing those people kidnapped by the Hand in the final episode. The rest was just failure, misery and doom.
And I like Jessica herself, but... the show is about a woman recovering from horrible abuse by a guy who's more Ted Bundy than supervillain, who goes around constantly committing petty acts of extreme cruelty. I mean... an innocent girl forced to murder her parents is way up there on the human misery pole, and daily life depresses me enough without exposing myself to fictional horribleness.
Given what I've said, should I even continue watching JJ, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and Defenders?"Is this 'cause I killed the hippie? Is that even illegal?"
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2017-06-21, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
The Marvel Netflix shows are high quality, but generally not feel-good television.
Daredevil Season 1 has some really good character work in it, but is mostly about Matt Murdock being miserable, with a bit of The Kingpin doing stuff. Matt Murdock is certainly a superhero, but the message is basically "Being a Superhero sucks, a LOT".
Jessica Jones is amazing television but, as you noticed, it's not particularly "Fun". Jessica Jones is not a superhero, and her life sucks, a lot.
Luke Cage might be more your speed. It's got a much more optimistic tone than the other shows. Sure, there's some underlying themes of injustice and systemic corruption, but Luke doesn't have the self-destructive impulses of either Jessica or Matt. Luke's life might suck a bit, but he's certainly a Superhero, and the show generally celebrates that.
I heard Iron Fist was terrible, and did not watch it.
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2017-06-21, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
JJ was satisfying, for me at least. You should finish the series, it gets better. Luke Cage was ok, but I was disappointed a bit by the final arc of the series. Iron Fist was a huge disappointment from an action standpoint. It has some good moments, but they wasted a ton of potential with the characters and setting from a story perspective, and a rushed filming schedule resulted in some underwhelming set pieces.
I'm guessing some of the Iron Fist plot is going to connect to the Defenders plot, so that's the only reason I'd say to watch it.
Of course I'm going to watch Defenders. There's too much potential for those characters playing off one another, and for awesome action pieces combining their abilities. It could be disappointing, too, there is a lot of room to underwhelm me in that department - but I think the poor handling of Iron Fist in his own series will be mitigated by the fact that he'll be in an ensemble this time. And I think, hope, pray, that the action choreography and fight training was given more attention for Defenders than it was in Iron Fist.
edit: after reading a bit about what they're doing with Defenders, I'm not so sure Iron Fist's plot is going to tie into it. So it might not be necessary at all. It also is only going to be 8 episodes rather than 13, so it's not quite so much of an investment of time to check it out when it comes out in a couple months.Last edited by Thrudd; 2017-06-21 at 04:10 PM.
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2017-06-21, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
No
Daredevil pretty much set the benchmark. All of the shows have some really sketchy writing. The actors usually aren't the problem. They needed more time to get better scripts and work on the fight choreography. Luke Cage has some good moments though.
Fyi. You might want to retitle this thread. Jessica Jones has some pretty ardent defenders the have HUGE blinders on.Last edited by Kyberwulf; 2017-06-21 at 04:05 PM.
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2017-06-21, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
JJ lost any goodness it had when Kilgore (?) came on screen. After that it's just pathetic, really.
I'm in a minority when I feel LC got better once they got the boring small-time mob bosses out of the way and brought on the hammy crazy guy, a villain much more suited to a superhero story than the other two. Cage himself was far more interesting and sympathetic than JJ as a character.
IF was pretty much a waste of time. The characters were boring, the plot was a mess and, most importantly, failed to convey the feeling that he was good at fighting, which is the single worst thing a show about the Marvel's best unarmed combatant can do.
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2017-06-21, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-21, 08:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
I enjoyed DD the first season but got bored with the too many ninjas in the second. JJ was ok but needed a tighter (or better) script. LC was ok for the first three or four episodes however I disliked the main big bad at the end. I really didn't like the Iron Fist character and therefore the show. BIG NOTE: I am not a comic book fan so perhaps this affects my view.
Additionally, I enjoy Agents of Shield.
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2017-06-21, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
Differing opinions? On MY Internet? It's more likely than you think.
I quite liked Jessica Jones, but...yeah. If the first episode squicked you with how evil Kllgrave is, the rest of the show may not be for you. He only gets worse from there, and the show as a whole is rather devoid of fluffy bunnies. I found it refreshingly different from the rest of the superhero genre which has started to become repetitive, but at the same time the show was grim enough to make me hesitate at watching it again. I certainly know I'll never look at David Tennant the same way.
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2017-06-21, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-21, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
I think people tried to explain that last time Kyberwulf made a thread on JJ. He basically ignored it and ranted about how horrible it was, ignoring counter arguments and claiming everyone who disagreed was wrong, biased, or delusional in some way.
Easiest just not to waste your typing fingers.Last edited by Dienekes; 2017-06-21 at 08:37 PM.
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2017-06-21, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
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2017-06-21, 09:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
JJ isn't really a superhero show though, it's a noir drama with superpowers dealing with rape, manipulation, and unhealthy ways of living with trauma. If you go in expecting Jessica to be a heroic figure, like I'm guessing Kyberwolf did if I remember the past threads correctly, you're probably not going to like what you see. Jessica has PTSD she's trying to treat with drinking problem and does her best to avoid dealing with it because (my interpretation here) seeking any kind of help would mean she's not as in control of her life as she has to convince herself she is not to hang herself. It's much more complex than for example Iron Man 3 (which I like, but different genre) where Tony has PTSD and a drinking problem and solves all of that with a big epiphany and bonding with a random kid. Or agents of SHIELD (which I also like) where dealing with mental trauma is the sub-sub plot of one episode and even severe brain damage goes away in a few months. That's ok because we don't want those shows or movies for deep drama we watch them for cool action and witty dialogue.
Is it a perfect show? Not at all but for what it actually is I think it's very good. If you're not looking for a bleak and kind of depressing show then don't watch it, go read the Wikipedia synopsis for shared universe plot points and then go watch Luke Cage. I don't think it's quite as good as JJ or Daredevil season 1 but it's a damn good show nonetheless. It's also a lot more lighthearted than JJ (which is weird because a ton more people die in Luke Cage), Luke is more of a straight up good guy, the villains are just deep enough to be fun without depressing you with their evil (Cottonmouth is a damn good villain, Mariah, Shades and Diamondback are much more cookie cutter but they do the job of raising the stakes). It's also got a kickass soundtrack, lot's of jazz, r&b and oldschool rap. Then do yourself a favour and don't watch Iron Fist. Or maybe watch the first episode to know who everyone is, trust us it doesn't get significantly better (other than Ward, Ward is cool. And his dad is a goofy character but probably the best performance in the series), then go read the synopsis to be ready for the Defenders. Oh and go watch the drunken master fight on youtube. It's by far the best fight scene in it.
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2017-06-21, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
I find it immensely amusing that someone can say that I do things and it's somehow bad WHILE doing the exact same thing they are claiming I do.
Funny thing about counter arguments. You don't have to accept them. You make them, and then someone else can make up their mind on who is right. Yeah, I do think people are wrong and biased about the show. Delusional I never said. That's a word used to bias others about my opinions. As is saying I ranted.
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2017-06-21, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
You said people had blinders on about it, that is fairly close to calling people delusional. Not the same but close.
On the topic at hand though...Jessica Jones has some very nice written, handles some adult topics in mature ways, and is all-solid show that maybe you should check out. That said, Jessica Jones herself isn't very likeable to me and that put a big damper on the show cause she comes off as an ******* to me but she is also the main character.
Definitely check out Luke Cage.Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.
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2017-06-21, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
JJ and Luke Cage are both fairly weak series but they have some good stuff in them that makes them still worth watching. Iron Fist is on the low end of the four series particularly because the low down to earth grounded feel of the other three series conflicts really badly with a story about a child found in the deep cold mountains and raised in a magical alien city trapped in another dimension where he is taught martial arts and is then taught to harness his ki by a dragon whom he defeats in mortal combat wherein he plunges his hands into said dragons molten heart. He then goes tto new york and continues an ancient feud with an army of vampire worshiping magical ninjas. Lets just say that that premise does not work with the phrase "grounded" the way that the rest do. But a particular episode by The RZA is worth watching all on its own and I think its a must see for any fan of stuff like the old Shaw Brothers catalogue, the rest of the show is Iron Fist fans only. Hoping that him being around in Defenders with show runners that have talent helps.
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2017-06-21, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
Actually, Iron Fist fans don't have much to like in the series, either. The show does not really translate the spirit of the comics that I liked, which in part is a celebration of awesome kung fu training. The people who made the show didn't know enough or teach the actors enough kung fu to pull off anything remotely like the fighting skills we should see from "the immortal iron fist" or "the living weapon". And he barely knew how to use the actual iron fist, and basically only ever used it to punch doors open. Lame.
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2017-06-21, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
Well, the Netflix series are certainly more personal than the MCU, because they're smaller stories. In the movies, Ultron is trying to destroy the whole world, Loki is trying to conquer the whole world, Hydra is trying to control the whole world, etc.
So if "miserable" isn't your cup of tea, you'll probably feel it more because the Netflix series revolve closely around the singular characters.
In the case of Jessica Jones, there's a lot that the show tackles. In the case of Kilgrave being more like Ted Bundy, I'm not sure I agree. But I do agree that he isn't a typical supervillain, in the sense that he doesn't have big picture grandiose expansive villain plans. The man is very powerful, but he uses his powers for baser gains. It's almost like... "what if any random clever guy gained the power to control minds?". It's a smaller, tighter story, which makes it more visceral because the violence and evil is more impacting.
Jessica Jones on the flip side isn't a typical hero in that she's the victim of trauma and is largely trying to forget that experience and run away from confronting it again when Kilgrave returns. She's just trying to get by and doesn't want the responsibility of being a hero.
Both Jessica and Kilgrave could be so much more than what they are. But they're just people.
Anyways, I think Jessica Jones is hands down the best of the Netflix series, with Season 1 of Daredevil a close second. I didn't care for Luke Cage too much, even though I like the character in JJ, and I thought Iron Fist was AWFUL. I definitely suggest giving Jessica Jones another try and seeing it through to the end.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-06-21, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
Frankly all of the Marvel Netflix shows have the same biggest flaw: padding. They drag way too much in a desire to stretch things out for hour long episodes and to have as many episodes as they do. I think Luke Cage remains pretty decent and worth watching, but they could have cut literal hours out of that show and it would have been so much better for it.
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2017-06-22, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
You literally just implied everyone who liked it was delusional upthread. Admittedly, you didn't use the word, but "have blinders on" means they're ignoring reality. While delusional means: having beliefs that ignore reality.
I do suppose there's a difference though, in our statements. You insult everyone who disagrees with you. I just insulted you.
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2017-06-22, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
Dingdingdingding! Jessica Jones is a bloated, contrived mess that could've maybe been a cool 5 episode miniseries. As it is, it's a a neat kernel of a story buried under piles of boredumb with the occasional awesome moment that's not worth it. I quit halfway through and don't regret it. You should skip it too, op.
Daredevil2 also fell victim to that. All the ninja stuff was terribad and Blacksmith thing was a fart. LC fared much better than that but it was still at least 2 episodes too long. D1 is still the best of the bunch by a massive margin. Didn't watch IF, don't plan to after all the panning it got. SHIELD also stopped being about normies dealing with superpowered asshats and became a zany superheroics show that made me quit, but I'm hearing it's not bad even after all these seasons. Television writers need to understand how to write for x episodes per season and Marvel's most guys seem to completely fail at that.Founder of the Fanclub of the (Late) Chief of Cliffport Police Department (He shall live forever in our hearts)
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2017-06-22, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
I noped out of Iron Fist when I found out (strike 1) Scott Buck was the showrunner, since he's never impressed me enough to get above 'meh', (strike 2) their lead was a guy with no fighting or martial arts experience, although he tried to cram a couple years of training in, leading to... (strike 3) they went with the production equivalent of a hurry-up offense, giving them no time to fix anything or even engage in basic rewrites.
The reviews indicate I was right.
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2017-06-22, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
I liked Jessica Jones a lot. Lots of head games, lots of cat and mouse. The underlying themes are rape and recovery, which can cause some viewers a fair amount of discomfort. These themes are handled very well, if you can deal with the squick.
Daredevil Season 1 was a lot of fun -- but mainly due to the stellar supporting cast. I made it about halfway through season 2, then found I had better things to do with my time.
Luke Cage is great early on. The second half of the series went full blacksploitation. I didn't care much for the main villain, but several of the supporting cast were still quite good.
Iron Fist is disliked by many. I finally sat down and watched it last weekend. It wasn't bad, aside from the ending. It just isn't nearly as compelling as other Netflix originals in the MCU.Last edited by Leewei; 2017-06-22 at 11:18 AM.
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2017-06-22, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-22, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
I've seen them all and would rank them as
Daredevil Season 1
Luke Cage
Jessica Jones
Daredevil Season 2
Iron Fist
I think one of the problems people have with both LC and JJ is that they're not fitting to the normal MCU focus, and that the first Daredevil season had a level of quality that was completely unexpected. Most of the MCU, including Daredevil, is focused on individuals who have a very heroic direction to their characters, with defined goals and a clear way to accomplish those goals. However Luke Cage and Jessica Jones are heroes who would really rather not be, with nebulous goals that they stumble towards through the series... and if you're not expecting that in your hero story, that will look like padding. Because those scenes are exploring the characters, who the vast majority of people hadn't heard of prior to the series' releases, instead of moving the plot closer to the climax and ending of "consecutive normal punches" with a side dish of subterfuge. There was certainly some cruft, but most of Jessica Jones was a fair introduction to who she is.
I'm not saying there isn't some "padding" in these properties - For example, one of the reasons the first season of Agents of Shield feels like a bit of a mess due to the big reveal being tied to Captain America: Winter Soldier. When the Movie was moved back slightly, and the tv series pilot was moved forward slightly, they needed spare episodes in the early-middle area to fill time, which is why it starts strong, gets weak, then gets strong-but-rushed near the end. Even the second season of Daredevil has certain things that needed to be shoved in to make the other properties make sense, which is one of the reason that it's a bit bloated, especially in the middle.
Iron Fist has a myriad of its own issues.
I do wonder, however, if the reaction to each of the storylines would be different if they a single show with 5 seasons, named Marvel's Manhattan.
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2017-06-22, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
"That's a horrible idea! What time?"
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2017-06-22, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
re: padding
I'm a huge fan of Jessica Jones, but I do think it went on longer than it needed to. Towards the end, it becomes obvious that the conflict should have been resolved already and you do find yourself wondering why the show is still going on.
That said... I still like it a lot!Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2017-06-22, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
My ranking of the shows:
3 hits:
Jessica Jones (my favourite overall)
Luke Cage (had my favourite protagonist)
Daredevil Season 1 (had my favourite antagonist)
2 misses:
Daredevil Season 2 (actually struggled to care enough to finish this one)
Iron Fist (just a bit of a mess, overall, albeit with a few moments of quality)
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2017-06-22, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
In that sense, it was very forward-thinking. Logan is a traditional western film that happens to have superheroes in it. Powerless was a show about people who, while not having superpowers themselves, that live in a world where that's a thing. Although not a superhero movie, Rogue One was a war drama that happened to be in the Star Wars universe. We're finally getting to the point where genre films can skip the handholding expositional frame, and just be themselves without having to be stuck in the idiosyncratic framework of that genre.
And it isn't universal. The Daredevilseasons were very much superhero fare. Iron Fist would have been basically the first season of Arrow (with a fist, instead of, well, arrows) if it had been... well, if it had been good. BVS still showed the Wayne parents die (... again) and we're likely to see Spiderman's origin re-re-re-reimagined in Spiderman Homecoming...
Although I could be wrong, and it's just a "high school coming of age" movie that happens to have a superhero in it. If so, GREAT!
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2017-06-22, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
On that theme:
Captain America: TFA and Wonder Woman were both (highly sanitised) war movies with superheroes in them.
Captain America: WS was a political thriller with superheroes in it.
etc
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2017-06-22, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Jessica Jones
"That's a horrible idea! What time?"
T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".