Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Anthrowhale]

Later Edit: I don't think you can provide magic armor enhancements to the Bracer of Armor, it's a Wondrous Item.

A&EG says that you can.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A&EG says that you can.

Isn't this a core only exercise?

[Anthrowhale]

Isn't this a core only exercise?

For the fighter build, I'm using the MIC rules and the A&EG rules. If you want to be more purist, go for it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

For the fighter build, I'm using the MIC rules and the A&EG rules. If you want to be more purist, go for it.

I was mostly joking.

I think I've more or less created a Commoner that can kill a Pit Fiend. Or at least, one that will kill a Pit Fiend more often than not.

[Anthrowhale]

I think I've more or less created a Commoner that can kill a Pit Fiend. Or at least, one that will kill a Pit Fiend more often than not.

Please detail.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Please detail.

1. Win initiative (on average Carry will succeed).

2. Use Gate scroll (again, successful on average rolls) and summon Solar.

3. Eat popcorn.

I considered using a scroll of Shades to emulate the trigger object Trap the Soul, but that's a little much.

Edit: I really should buy some CON boosting gear for better HP.

[Anthrowhale]

1. Win initiative (on average Carry will succeed).

2. Use Gate scroll (again, successful on average rolls) and summon Solar.

3. Eat popcorn.

I considered using a scroll of Shades to emulate the trigger object Trap the Soul, but that's a little much.

You win initative 57% of the time but then the Pit Fiend can ignore the Solar and Meteor Swarm you, essentially killing you every time. Even if the Solar later kills the Pit Fiend, this guarantees a draw.

It's also not entirely clear that the Solar will kill the Pit Fiend, because the Pit Fiend need only try to survive for 17 rounds and it has greater teleport with a decent hide.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You win initative 57% of the time but then the Pit Fiend can ignore the Solar and Meteor Swarm you, essentially killing you every time. Even if the Solar later kills the Pit Fiend, this guarantees a draw.

It's also not entirely clear that the Solar will kill the Pit Fiend, because the Pit Fiend need only try to survive for 17 rounds and it has greater teleport with a decent hide.

I'll just have the Solar trap the Pitfiend in a Forcecage. It has to spend an action to escape, and after that, all it can use is Quickened Fireball (LOL) and then I can just turn invisible.

Edit: Or I could use another Gate scroll; I have cash to burn. Or another scroll. Time Stop maybe?

Later Edit: Buying some CON boosts to up Carry's HP. I'll update her build in a sec.

Spoiler: Carry the Commoner Build WIP

Show

HP: 142

AC: 22

INIT: +13

STR: 6 (-2)
DEX: 29 (+9)
CON: 21 (+5)
INT: (+1)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA 34 (+12)

32 Point Buy

SAVES:

FORT: +11
REF: +15
WILL: +5

UMD: 32 total (11 ranks)

5 Ranks in Spellcraft/Decipher Script

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Skill Focus UMD
Magical Aptitude

The only items I bought (aside from the 9th level scroll) were Gloves of DEX/Cloak of CHA/Amulet of Health, and three +5 inherent bonus for DEX/CHA/CON.


Even if that scroll was Gate, I still have 230,675 GP left over.

[Beheld]

You win initative 57% of the time but then the Pit Fiend can ignore the Solar and Meteor Swarm you, essentially killing you every time. Even if the Solar later kills the Pit Fiend, this guarantees a draw.

It's also not entirely clear that the Solar will kill the Pit Fiend, because the Pit Fiend need only try to survive for 17 rounds and it has greater teleport with a decent hide.

The Pit Fiend only has to survive for one round, because then he can teleport to literally anywhere else on the plane, and the Solar won't be able to find him in 20 rounds.

The winning move is to Gate the Pit Fiend himself, and then tell him to do push ups while you coup de grace him. Probably should start by UMDing scroll of Teleport or Planeshift to get somewhere else, then do it, so that if he summoned already, that summoned Pit Fiend doesn't kill you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The Pit Fiend only has to survive for one round, because then he can teleport to literally anywhere else on the plane, and the Solar won't be able to find him in 20 rounds.

If he runs away, does that mean I win?

Otherwise, I'll just have the Solar teleport me elsewhere and I'll rest via Mage's Mansion or something.

Alternatively, I could have the Solar hunt the Pit Fiend down with divination spells.

Or, if teleporting away is a victory, can I just run away myself?

[Beheld]

If he runs away, does that mean I win?

You'd be dead, so no?

Alternatively, I could have the Solar hunt the Pit Fiend down with divination spells.

You absolutely won't be able to do that in 20 rounds.

Of course, even the plan where you gate the Pit Fiend still fails if he kills you with fireballs from behind a Persistent Image and you can't see him.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You'd be dead, so no?

I'd planned to just go elsewhere if it teleported away.

You absolutely won't be able to do that in 20 rounds.

Not in Core.

Maybe I should use the Shades, Trap the Soul trigger object idea...

Edit:

Of course, even the plan where you gate the Pit Fiend still fails if he kills you with fireballs from behind a Persistent Image and you can't see him.

I'd better pick up a Gem of Seeing. I should have bought one anyway.

[Beheld]

I'd planned to just go elsewhere if it teleported away.

You spend action gating. It spends action killing you. Solar spends action trying to kill Pit Fiend, if it fails, Pit Fiend leaves.

You are dead. You lose, Pit Fiend is alive, and returns in 19 rounds if he cares.

Not in Core.

I mean, unless your plan involves teleporting to a location where you already know a weird is who will either do everything for you for no reason, or who you previously uh... did something? I don't even know if you can mind control a Weird, probably Mind Rape would work? You aren't going to be able to divine the Pit Fiends location.

[Anthrowhale]

The Pit Fiend doesn't have a high probability 1-round kill now, but there is a significant probability. Quickened Fireball + Meteor Swarm inflicts 140 expected damage 25% of the time and 122.5 damage 75% of the time. Adding fire resistance seems like a good idea.

The gate spell only succeeds 80% of the time so the odds of winning initiative and getting the gate off are only 46%.

The Fear aura makes you run for 18 rounds with probability 95% so the Pit Fiend can teleport next to you and then force you to run. The AOO when you run will be bite which has a 75% chance of killing. Even if it doesn't the fear lasts for one round longer than the Gate spell so the Pit Fiend could can play teleportation tag with the Solar for 17 rounds, then reestablish fear and execute AOO bites until death.

[Anthrowhale]

...The winning move is to Gate the Pit Fiend himself, and then tell him to do push ups while you coup de grace him...

This does not work. Gate says:

...unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate...

If you specify a particular Pit Fiend it is (by definition) unique.

[logic_error]

It's not unique. The idea here is to kill a pitfiend. Not the pitfiend.

[Anthrowhale]

It's not unique. The idea here is to kill a pitfiend. Not the pitfiend.

Beheld said 'the Pit Fiend' as in the one that you face in an encounter. I agree the tactic works if you want to kill some arbitrary Pit Fiend.

[Beheld]

This does not work. Gate says: If you specify a particular Pit Fiend it is (by definition) unique.

What Gate actually says is:

By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

A Particular Pit Fiend is not a unique being. It's a particular being.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You spend action gating. It spends action killing you.

Doesn't the Solar get initiative count?

Solar spends action trying to kill Pit Fiend, if it fails, Pit Fiend leaves.

You are dead. You lose, Pit Fiend is alive, and returns in 19 rounds if he cares.

I'm pretty sure the Pit Fiend can't kill me in one round.

I mean, unless your plan involves teleporting to a location where you already know a weird is who will either do everything for you for no reason, or who you previously uh... did something? I don't even know if you can mind control a Weird, probably Mind Rape would work? You aren't going to be able to divine the Pit Fiends location.

Why would I bother with all that? I'll use Shapechange to turn into and Elemental Weird.

I should be able to find the Pit Fiend without too much difficulty in that case. None of its SLAs are going to help much.

Honestly, this is more or less my strategy:

Once the Solar hits the field, it'll use Miracle to emulate Forcecage and trap the Pit Fiend. Or I could UMD Time Stop, Forcecage and Dimensional Lock, but that seems like a lot scrolls to buy.

If the Pit Fiend escapes via teleport, I'll have the Solar Wish up a scroll of Simulacrum and I'll use it to create another Solar. Repeat until I have an army.

Edit: I'll turn invisible if the Pit Fiend stays and tries to fight.

Or, I could just try using Shades to emulate the trigger object variant of Trap the Soul to win the fight 80% of the time (assuming I win initiative).

Edit:

Updated Build

Spoiler: Carry the Commoner Build WIP

Show

HP: 142

AC: 22

INIT: +13

STR: 6 (-2)
DEX: 29 (+9)
CON: 21 (+5)
INT: (+1)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA 34 (+12)

32 Point Buy

SAVES:

FORT: +11
REF: +15
WILL: +5

UMD: 32 total (11 ranks)

5 Ranks in Spellcraft/Decipher Script

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Skill Focus UMD
Magical Aptitude

Gear:

Amulet of Health
Gloves of DEX
Cloak of CHA
Manual of Bodily Health
Manual of Quickness of Action
Tome of Leadership and Influence
Scroll of Gate
Gem of Seeing
Wand of Improved Invisibility

134,675 GP left over.

[logic_error]

[Beheld]

At the point where your strategy involves an infinite solar army, I have to wonder why you put any of this to chance, and don't just make your infinite solar army in advance and then have them do the adventuring for you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

At the point where your strategy involves an infinite solar army, I have to wonder why you put any of this to chance, and don't just make your infinite solar army in advance and then have them do the adventuring for you.

It was more of a last resort, to be honest.

I'm playing as a level 20 core only Commoner; I really don't have very many options.

Non-core would make this a lot easier, I could just make a charging build of some type.

Edit: A UMD Fighter would have a few more options than a Commoner, but in Core, is the Fighter really that much better?

[Anthrowhale]

Again, Pit Fiend teleports next to you whether or not it wins initiative. It invokes the fear aura as a free action. There is a 95% chance that you run screaming for the duration of a possibly summoned Solar, a 95% chance that the Pit Fiend hits with an AOO bite, and an 80% chance that you die from the bite. I don't see a counter to this in the build.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Again, Pit Fiend teleports next to you whether or not it wins initiative. It invokes the fear aura as a free action. There is a 95% chance that you run screaming for the duration of a possibly summoned Solar, a 95% chance that the Pit Fiend hits with an AOO bite, and an 80% chance that you die from the bite. I don't see a counter to this in the build.

The Pit Fiend can't kill me with a single bite attack. If I get poisoned, the Solar can use its Heal SLA on me. I'm not going to get close enough for it do much to me, otherwise.

The Solar can deal some hefty damage on its first turn (around 87 on average if it gets a full attack) and then it can use Power Word Stun on the Pit Fiend to paralyze it. Next turn, it can Coup De Grace and kill it.

If the Poison and Fear are so worrisome, I'll just pick up scrolls of Hero's Feast and maybe Greater Heroism.

[Beheld]

The Solar can deal some hefty damage on its first turn (around 87 on average if it gets a full attack) and then it can use Power Word Stun on the Pit Fiend to paralyze it. Next turn, it can Coup De Grace and kill it.

Power Word Stun doesn't Paralyze, it stuns. Stunned Creatures are not helpless and therefore cannot be coup de graced. A Solar might still be able to kill the Pit Fiend, though I again think this comes down to the natural advantage of a buffed Pit Fiend being able to kill you and then leave before the Solar can kill it, especially since it will almost certainly get a surprise round on you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Power Word Stun doesn't Paralyze, it stuns. Stunned Creatures are not helpless and therefore cannot be coup de graced.

Forgot about that. It should be stunned long enough for the Solar to drop its HP below 100; then it can use Power Word Kill.

A Solar might still be able to kill the Pit Fiend, though I again think this comes down to the natural advantage of a buffed Pit Fiend being able to kill you and then leave before the Solar can kill it, especially since it will almost certainly get a surprise round on you.

If the Pit Fiend gets buffs, it's only fair that I do.

Even with buffs, I don't think the Pit Fiend can 1-shot me.

Edit:

Updated Build; I bought a scroll of Mind Blank.

Spoiler: Carry the Commoner Build WIP

Show

HP: 142

AC: 22

INIT: +13

STR: 6 (-2)
DEX: 29 (+9)
CON: 21 (+5)
INT: (+1)
WIS: 8 (-1)
CHA 34 (+12)

32 Point Buy

SAVES:

FORT: +11
REF: +15
WILL: +5

UMD: 32 total (11 ranks)

5 Ranks in Spellcraft/Decipher Script

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Skill Focus UMD
Magical Aptitude

Gear:

Amulet of Health
Gloves of DEX
Cloak of CHA
Manual of Bodily Health
Manual of Quickness of Action
Tome of Leadership and Influence
Scroll of Gate
Gem of Seeing
Wand of Improved Invisibility
Scroll of Mind Blank
Scroll of Foresight

127,850 GP left over.

Later Edit: I bought a scroll of Foresight so I can't be surprised.

[Beheld]

Forgot about that. It should be stunned long enough for the Solar to drop its HP below 100; then it can use Power Word Kill.

Also remember that the Pit Fiend has SR 32 that would apply against these various Power Words that the Solar is supposed to implement.

If the Pit Fiend gets buffs, it's only fair that I do.

That does not follow. The Pit Fiend gets buffs because of it's at will nature for the buffs, and it's superior detection suit to your PC. Not because Boccob is stopping time to buff him.

Later Edit: I bought a scroll of Foresight so I can't be surprised.

That doesn't work. You have to actually use the scroll before you know you are going to run into the Pit Fiend, which is not something you can really do. Also, you should be giving all these consumables 5x cost, though I'm sure you still have giant piles of money.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Also remember that the Pit Fiend has SR 32 that would apply against these various Power Words that the Solar is supposed to implement.

That might actually be a problem. On average rolls the Solar doesn't quite penetrate SR 32. If I could give a +1 to CL (Orange Ioun Stone?) that would work.

If I can fix that problem, Holy Word should blind/deafen the Pit Fiend.

That does not follow. The Pit Fiend gets buffs because of it's at will nature for the buffs, and it's superior detection suit to your PC. Not because Boccob is stopping time to buff him.

I was thinking of hours per level buffs. Mind Blank lasts 24 hours, for example.

Also, the only buffs that Pit Fiend has are Invisibility and Magical Circle/Good.

That doesn't work. You have to actually use the scroll before you know you are going to run into the Pit Fiend, which is not something you can really do.

The Pit Fiend can't buff then, since it's SLAs last 10 min/level and 1 min/level respectively.

Also, you should be giving all these consumables 5x cost, though I'm sure you still have giant piles of money.

I was under the impression that we weren't using that rule.

[Beheld]

To be clear, do you want to actually run this per my offer?

That might actually be a problem. On average rolls the Solar doesn't quite penetrate SR 32. If I could give a +1 to CL (Orange Ioun Stone?) that would work.

I'm sorry, no? Did anyone think that was actually a good idea? You don't get a 100% kill rate with a save or die, or a 0%, depending on the DC, you get a range, there is a reason we roll things. This applies to SR and attack rolls too.

I was thinking of hours per level buffs. Mind Blank lasts 24 hours, for example.

I agree, you can definitely have Mindblank. You can have anything you have the ability to put up all the time, and will put up all the time.

Also, the only buffs that Pit Fiend has are Invisibility and Magical Circle/Good.

It also has Create Undead, Persistent Image, and Unholy Aura.

The Pit Fiend can't buff then, since it's SLAs last 10 min/level and 1 min/level respectively.

It has at will abilities. It uses them every 10 minutes or 100 minutes, and then has them always on. If you have enough scrolls of Foresight to use them as soon as they run out, even using one shot rules, you can totally have it on all day.

I was under the impression that we weren't using that rule.

Antho said he refuses to use that rule, because he wants to spend 80k on consumables including the ones that define his character.

That's not a very good reason.

It's a one shot, you aren't going to face 26 encounters and collect treasure from them and have less gold if you over use consumables. You are going to face one entire enemy, and then get all your stuff magically replenished before facing a different encounter (including your life should you die) so consumables are objectively way better for one encounter, hence the one shot rule.

[ColorBlindNinja]

To be clear, do you want to actually run this per my offer?

I hadn't planned to actually run this encounter. I was just attempting to stat up a Commoner that can kill a Pit Fiend.

Edit: What was that offer, exactly?

I'm sorry, no? Did anyone think that was actually a good idea? You don't get a 100% kill rate with a save or die, or a 0%, depending on the DC, you get a range, there is a reason we roll things. This applies to SR and attack rolls too.

A single test run won't prove much. I'm interested in average results. If you test over and over, what's the most probable outcome?

I agree, you can definitely have Mindblank. You can have anything you have the ability to put up all the time, and will put up all the time.

Very well.

It also has Create Undead, Persistent Image, and Unholy Aura.

Unholy Aura I can see, but the Pit Fiend can't control the undead it creates.

I have a Gem of Seeing, so Persistent Image won't help much.

It has at will abilities. It uses them every 10 minutes or 100 minutes, and then has them always on. If you have enough scrolls of Foresight to use them as soon as they run out, even using one shot rules, you can totally have it on all day.

I get it. I doubt most of those buffs will help the Pit Fiend that much.

Antho said he refuses to use that rule, because he wants to spend 80k on consumables including the ones that define his character.

That's not a very good reason.

It's a one shot, you aren't going to face 26 encounters and collect treasure from them and have less gold if you over use consumables. You are going to face one entire enemy, and then get all your stuff magically replenished before facing a different encounter (including your life should you die) so consumables are objectively way better for one encounter, hence the one shot rule.

I see. Simulacrum army is starting to sound better by the minute...

Edit:

Another reason I'm not so eager to run a play test is that D20s hate me.

I swear half of my rolls are under 10.