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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    I never discussed readied actions because you weren't invisible before? When you used your first round to full attack, the obvious move was to move over and disarm. Once you went for the dust of greater invis, all that's important is stalling out that effect, which is focused on walls of ice. I haven't been in a position to discuss readied actions since. But yes, there's a pretty simple readied action that ends your attack, also, if you are doing anything within range of the Pit Fiend, which is almost automatic after wall of ices come up, the second attack provokes AoO for disarm.
    The problem with duck and cover is that you break the combat into multiple encounters, implying the Sniper gets extra surprise attacks. We would have to actually play things out, but a sequence like:
    1. Surprise(Multiattack)
    2. Win initiatve + Ring of Invisibility+Movement
    ... leaves the Pit Fiend in a poor situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Unlikely to work in that 1) quick draw doesn't let you draw during an AoO as it is not your turn so no free actions. 2) In the case of a Pit Fiend or balor, you need that weapon to be holy.
    (2) can be more cheaply dealt with using an oil of align weapon instead.
    (1) I think you are right, so stealth is the right choice.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2017-07-16 at 07:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    The problem with duck and cover is that you break the combat into multiple encounters, implying the Sniper gets extra surprise attacks. We would have to actually play things out, but a sequence like:
    1. Surprise(Multiattack)
    2. Win initiatve + Ring of Invisibility+Movement
    ... leaves the Pit Fiend in a poor situation.
    Casting wall of ice doesn't create a new encounter. And already it's absurd that you are claiming you get a surprise attack at all in the random teleported to cage room scenario.

    In any kind of actual adventuring scenario, like the dungeon, the Pit Fiend will get the ability to disarm you with his superior environmental manipulation and mobility before you get an attack at all.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Casting wall of ice doesn't create a new encounter. And already it's absurd that you are claiming you get a surprise attack at all in the random teleported to cage room scenario.
    You misunderstand: casting wall of ice and then waiting many rounds without any engagement creates a new encounter.

    Another alternative is of course using the ring initially and saving the dust for later.

    Incidentally, I also figure out an approach to dealing with a disarm attack. A silver arrow prepared with align weapon that's in hand can be used as an improvised dagger in the AOO to stab the Pit Fiend.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    I'm still curious to see how a fighter with ranks exclusively in Hide, Stealth, and Move Silently is able to tell what to prepare for. No Knowledges makes Pit Fiends indistinguishable from any of the other CR 20 threats. Or even CR 1 threats. Pit Fiends, Balors, Dragons, and even the odd Tarrasque are all well outside the halfling's scope of knowledge, so there should be at least one round for the fighter devoted to trying to figure out which of the monsters (that he metagamingly already knows how to beat) that he's actually fighting. Is he sure this isn't just another zombie? Go ahead, make that knowledge roll.

    And no, free action "the party wizard tells the fighter" isn't a valid answer.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    There are no fortitude saves---Control Winds is "magic that usually impedes movement" so Freedom of Movement applies. The shut down of ranged attacks is the relevant bit.
    Indeed it is, as you have an archer build.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You misunderstand: casting wall of ice and then waiting many rounds without any engagement creates a new encounter.
    No, it really doesn't. If you cast Resilient Sphere and then buff up, that doesn't make the fight you fight after buffing "a different encounter" it means you used Resilient Sphere to buy time to buff for this encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Another alternative is of course using the ring initially and saving the dust for later.
    If you use the ring, then you are no threat as previously indicated. I can't wait for the 400th dumb metagame trick that I'm thinking of now that you will eventually come up with. Just so you know, when you do: My answer is "this is why adventuring is important, and the Pit Fiends objectively superior environmental and mobility control is important."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Incidentally, I also figure out an approach to dealing with a disarm attack. A silver arrow prepared with align weapon that's in hand can be used as an improvised dagger in the AOO to stab the Pit Fiend.
    1) You still need Weapon Finesse to have a chance in hell of hitting and quick draw to draw it, so we are deep into the redesigning your fighter for the 35th time land.
    2) While I appreciate your solution to the problem "I'm spending metagaming information my character doesn't have against literally the only level appropriate monster I have even the slightest chance against because I designed my character to fight just this one enemy and then spend three times as much on consumables for this fight as the rules expect and I'm still losing" is "what if I metagamed even harder and used even more consumables!"

    At the point where you feel the need to apply 5 potions during the invis you get from a completely different consumable, I refer you to the previous problem that many of the potions and oils you rely on have durations and so far you have proposed no method of actually bringing the fight to the Pit Fiend during the short durations of your attempts.

    3) I'm not sure you can actually hold the same arrow for more than one round, which might be a problem, you'd have to sheathe it (move action), or fire it in the first shot you fire. Even if you did have quick draw, you would still shoot all your arrows, draw this one, but you'd already be disarmed during the AoO, when you didn't have that one aligned arrow drawn.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2017-07-16 at 11:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    No, it really doesn't. If you cast Resilient Sphere and then buff up, that doesn't make the fight you fight after buffing "a different encounter" it means you used Resilient Sphere to buy time to buff for this encounter.
    The DM would determine when encounters end and begin. It is certainly unusual to use the same initiative count for a very long period of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    If you use the ring, then you are no threat as previously indicated.
    The Pit Fiend might be lulled into thinking that, but the dust of disappearance is still there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    1) You still need Weapon Finesse to have a chance in hell of hitting and quick draw to draw it, so we are deep into the redesigning your fighter for the 35th time land.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    2) While I appreciate your solution to the problem "I'm spending metagaming information my character doesn't have against literally the only level appropriate monster I have even the slightest chance against because I designed my character to fight just this one enemy and then spend three times as much on consumables for this fight as the rules expect and I'm still losing" is "what if I metagamed even harder and used even more consumables!"
    I take it you still haven't read the analysis of consumables I did here. The build underspends on consumables compared to WOTC expectations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    3) I'm not sure you can actually hold the same arrow for more than one round, which might be a problem, you'd have to sheathe it (move action), or fire it in the first shot you fire. Even if you did have quick draw, you would still shoot all your arrows, draw this one, but you'd already be disarmed during the AoO, when you didn't have that one aligned arrow drawn.
    Extra/wrong arrows can be dropped as a free action.

    I'm more worried about Disarm when fighting a Dragon. For the Pit Fiend, it's at +38 (18+13(str)-1(size)+12(size difference)-4(light weapon)), while the Sniper is plausibly +47 (=20+2(str)+10(Locking gauntlet) +1(Competence) +2(feat) +7(Enhance) +2(size) +1(haste) +2(Morale) -4(improvised)+4(two-handed weapon)) implying that the odds of a disarm are only 14%. With a full attack using every attack for a disarm, there is about an even chance of success (49%), so it's good to avoid a full attack's worth of disarm attempts. The story is quite different with a Gargantuan Black Wyrm at +56 (=+34+12(str)-4(size)+20(size difference)-4(light weapon)).
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I'm more worried about Disarm when fighting a Dragon. For the Pit Fiend, it's at +38 (18+13(str)-1(size)+12(size difference)-4(light weapon)), while the Sniper is plausibly +47 (=20+2(str)+10(Locking gauntlet) +1(Competence) +2(feat) +7(Enhance) +2(size) +1(haste) +2(Morale) -4(improvised)+4(two-handed weapon)) implying that the odds of a disarm are only 14%. With a full attack using every attack for a disarm, there is about an even chance of success (49%), so it's good to avoid a full attack's worth of disarm attempts. The story is quite different with a Gargantuan Black Wyrm at +56 (=+34+12(str)-4(size)+20(size difference)-4(light weapon)).
    I'd be more worried about its 13th level Sorcerer casting than being disarmed.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Huh, after checking 3 pages backing and looking at expected damage numbers if your bow had it's magic suppressed I'm curious now as to what enchantments it actually has.

    Also, would you keep using different oils/arrows till you found a combination that worked since you haven't mentioned having a relevant knowledge skill to use?

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    Huh, after checking 3 pages backing and looking at expected damage numbers if your bow had it's magic suppressed I'm curious now as to what enchantments it actually has.

    Also, would you keep using different oils/arrows till you found a combination that worked since you haven't mentioned having a relevant knowledge skill to use?
    He would just cheat.

    That's his only strategy. He declares that no other possible strategy is even worth considering, and if you make him not cheat you are a big poopy meany head.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I'd be more worried about its 13th level Sorcerer casting than being disarmed.
    Actually, standard NPC dragon builds don't seem all that impressive in terms of spells known.
    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    Huh, after checking 3 pages backing and looking at expected damage numbers if your bow had it's magic suppressed I'm curious now as to what enchantments it actually has.
    The build is here. The bow is +1 Holy Bane[Dragon] Bane[Outsider[Evil]].
    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    Also, would you keep using different oils/arrows till you found a combination that worked since you haven't mentioned having a relevant knowledge skill to use?
    It's certainly a possibility. Multiattack would allow testing everything at once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    He would just cheat.
    Oh, I wanted to mention one other thing that's wrong with your disarm fantasy. Even if you do disarm on a full attack (even chance), you don't end up holding the weapon---instead it falls to the ground in the Sniper's space where it can be picked up as a move action.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    That's his only strategy. He declares that no other possible strategy is even worth considering, and if you make him not cheat you are a big poopy meany head.
    Reducing objections to the point where it's "but you can't make a DC 28 knowledge[The planes] check!" is actually a quite reasonable outcome since many, many other classes will fail as well
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  12. - Top - End - #642
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Actually, standard NPC dragon builds don't seem all that impressive in terms of spells known.
    I really wonder, are you being a deceptive liar, or an idiot, when you attribute a random person with less authority and connection to D&D than the people on this forum with a build as authoritative on how standard Dragons should be built.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Oh, I wanted to mention one other thing that's wrong with your disarm fantasy. Even if you do disarm on a full attack (even chance), you don't end up holding the weapon---instead it falls to the ground in the Sniper's space where it can be picked up as a move action.
    I know it never occured to you that Pit Fiends are actually creatures with stats and stuff that can take actions, but the 18 BAB Pit Fiend does in fact get the ability to disarm "unarmed" exactly like every other character, and he could use Iterative attacks for that, and Attacks of Opportunity, even though he succeeds like 70% of the time after your 35th rebuild to give yourself a gauntlet of locking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Reducing objections to the point where it's "but you can't make a DC 28 knowledge[The planes] check!" is actually a quite reasonable outcome since many, many other classes will fail as well
    Other classes aren't garbage, so without metagaming they can still kill the Pit Fiend.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    when you attribute a random person with less authority and connection to D&D than the people on this forum with a build as authoritative on how standard Dragons should be built.
    Those builds are actually fairly similar to Draconomicon sample dragons. I believe you have very little sense of what a typical optimization level is in the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    I know it never occured to you that Pit Fiends are actually creatures with stats and stuff that can take actions, but the 18 BAB Pit Fiend does in fact get the ability to disarm "unarmed" exactly like every other character, and he could use Iterative attacks for that, and Attacks of Opportunity, even though he
    Citation? You need to be "considered unarmed" according to the Rules Compendium, and I don't think a PIt Fiend can ever be considered unarmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    succeeds like 70% of the time after your 35th rebuild to give yourself a gauntlet of locking.
    Are you going to detail how you get to 70%? Because at present you made an assertion while I actually detailed things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Other classes aren't garbage, so without metagaming they can still kill the Pit Fiend.
    In core, only the Cleric, Bard, and Wizard have these as class skills. A cleric is unlikely to take Knowledge[The Planes] since thy have very few skills. A Bard or a Wizard might although it's far from certain in practice.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Those builds are actually fairly similar to Draconomicon sample dragons. I believe you have very little sense of what a typical optimization level is in the game.
    If you want to cite Draconomicon builds as somehow authoritative, you totally can. But stop citing "a random person on the internet who is probably, frankly, anthrowhale" as an authoritative source for dragon builds. I'm not saying that dragon build is or isn't reflective of "typical optimization" I'm not sure typical optimization is even a thing, and I didn't even read the spell choices of that build.

    All I'm sure of is: 1) The Tiny Halfling Archer Fighter who Metagames and blows money on consumables guy shouldn't be telling me about how typical optimization works, and 2) When he does anyway, he shouldn't be citing to a wiki entry written by a nobody as evidence of what authoritative dragon statblocks look like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Citation? You need to be "considered unarmed" according to the Rules Compendium, and I don't think a PIt Fiend can ever be considered unarmed.
    You are now apparently arguing that a Pit Fiend doesn't have hands, and therefore can't use unarmed strikes? Really? He's unarmed when he chooses to attack unarmed, just like every other creature with hands who can attack with their hands when they aren't holding something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Are you going to detail how you get to 70%? Because at present you made an assertion while I actually detailed things.
    Your bonus with your +10 item locked guantlet is 1d20+ a number. The Pit Fiends bonus is 1d20+that number+8, as I detailed when I last detailed the bonus numbers. I don't precisely know, or care to calculate, the differential bonus of chances to know what the specific percentage chance that the Pit Fiends disarms you in an opposed roll on the first standard action attack/first attack of a full attack/attack of opportunity, but I'm estimating that with his +8 bonus over you, and opposed rolls, it's around 70% per attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    In core, only the Cleric, Bard, and Wizard have these as class skills. A cleric is unlikely to take Knowledge[The Planes] since thy have very few skills. A Bard or a Wizard might although it's far from certain in practice.
    It's like you didn't even read what I wrote. Other characters are not garbage, so they don't have to metagame. That's why Druids and Clerics and can handle a Pit Fiend without metagaming, Wizards can both handle it, and also probably have knowledge. Rogues can handle it without metagaming, and might have knowledge, but might not.

    EDIT: to be complete, even if you tried to argue that pit fiends are incapable of using unarmed strikes, you plan to pick up your bow again is not a good one. There will probably be an ice devil there as well to take his turn, if the attack of opportunity disarms you, the pit fiend spends a move action picking it up on his next turn, if the first attack of the full attack disarm you (as it is exceedingly likely to do) then pursuant to the rules, he can just stop attacking, use his move action to pick it up, and finally, if the second or third attack disarm you, he would still have 3-4 attacks left, and you bow would be an object with ac like 10 at most, and he would hit on a 2, and break it on the first attack half the time and the second attack the other half.

    Which leads to the next problem with your weapon finesse quick draw problem, aoo problem, you also need combat reflexes in addition to your entire strategy not working, because if the second disarm takes your weapon away you still lose.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2017-07-18 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    You are now apparently arguing that a Pit Fiend doesn't have hands, and therefore can't use unarmed strikes? Really?
    That is correct---A Pit Fiend does not have hands. A Pit Fiend does have claws and is always considered armed. These are the rules, and you have found no citation to the contrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Your bonus with your +10 item locked guantlet is 1d20+ a number. The Pit Fiends bonus is 1d20+that number+8, as I detailed when I last detailed the bonus numbers.
    You said "30" and 38" which is far from a convincing detailing and you missed many bonuses to the attack roll, as I detailed above.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Other characters are not garbage, so they don't have to metagame.
    As far as I can tell "metagame" to you means "use a gem of Seeing" and "attack a Pit Fiend as a Pit Fiend without making a DC 28 knowledge check". Calling every character that fails those tests "garbage" seems a bit extreme.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2017-07-18 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    That is correct---A Pit Fiend does not have hands. A Pit Fiend does have claws and is always considered armed. These are the rules, and you have found no citation to the contrary.
    An unarmed strike is not necessarily made with a hand:

    Quote Originally Posted by Actions in Combat
    Unarmed Attacks

    Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    As I now have to prove that the rules say creatures with hands can make unarmed strikes, I had to look in the MM again, and hey, just as a funny note, look what I found. A 400th nail in the coffin of the dumb argument that Anthrowhale absolutely relies on but never supports, that Pit Fiends aren't allowed to use the treasure the rules say they have.

    "Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home."

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    That is correct---A Pit Fiend does not have hands. A Pit Fiend does have claws and is always considered armed. These are the rules, and you have found no citation to the contrary.
    Look, I don't have my books on me every second, so sometimes, when you say blatant lies that even you don't believe, I just express incredulity, in the vain hope that one of these days you might to pretend to be arguing in good faith and just say "Yeah, creatures with hands can totally wield weapons, I'm not going to insist you find a rule for that even though it if were true that creatures with hands can't wield weapons, man, that would be really awkward for the character that literally can't function without a bow that I keep advocating for."

    But that said, let's continue on:

    Pit Fiends are proficient with simple and martial weapons (pg 313 MM). The entry for Pit Fiends states: "A pit fiend’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction" (pg 58). There are also about 5 different places it says that monsters that wield weapons use the same rules as players. And that monsters that combine them use primary weapons, then natural attacks as secondary weapons. The first is on Page 6.

    An Unarmed Strike is a simple weapon, therefore the Pit Fiend is proficient, the description even lists it as a "punch, headbutt, or other type of attack" so even if the Pit Fiend didn't have hands, he could still do it.

    Now technically, if I was as anal as you, I could point out that there is no rule that actually says that Pit Fiends lose their claw attacks when wielding unarmed strikes, thus giving the Pit Fiend 4 attacks to disarm with unarmed strike, then 2 claws, 2 wings, bite, and tail.

    But unlike you, I'm capable of thinking with my brain and looking at the rules in some non stupid light, so I can point to all the creatures that when they wield a weapon can't use their claws. And just reduce it 4 disarms, then if another disarm is needed 4 more, or alternatively, 3 and attacks that break the AC 10 hardness 6 HP 11 item on the ground.

    For reference: Barghest, Bearded Devil, Horned Devil, Ice Devil, Sample Half Dragon, Sample Half Fiend, Harpy, Lamia, Lizardfolk, Lycanthropes in Hybrid Form, Sahuagin (Talons instead of claws), Sauhuagin Mutants, Skeletons, Troglodyte, Troll Hunter, and Xill.

    All of which also puts paid to your incredibly stupid and deceptive lie that even you didn't believe, that clawed creatures can't wield weapons.

    Although the Sample Half Dragon and Half Fiend seems to indicate that one handing your unarmed strike still gives you one claw attack too for 9 total:

    "Full Attack: A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack."

    Although, even that is moot, because the rules for unarmed attacks are: "“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (page 96), a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with claws, fangs, and similar natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense. Not only does a monk not provoke an attack opportunity when attacking an armed foe, but you provoke an attack of opportunity from a monk if you make an unarmed attack against her."

    So in fact, the Pit Fiend is unarmed for the purposes of you know, being unarmed, and thus able to take the weapon, and is only considered armed for the purposes of provoking AoOs and being able to take them. So he can take the bow even with his claw unarmeds, so as many as 6 disarms that take the weapon before the 4 that just knock it to the ground.

    As usual, when you say something that even you don't believe, it turns out that instead of nothing that proves your wrong, there are a thousand different things.

    Also, see my edit, because you were so wrong in your last post, that I forgot some of the ways you are wrong (like if the first AoO or the first attack disarms and didn't take it away (which they do), then he just picks it up, or that the ice devil can pick it up, or that if he knocks it to the ground, he can break it in a single attack as long as he doesn't roll a 1 against an AC like 9 object.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You said "30" and 38" which is far from a convincing detailing and you missed many bonuses to the attack roll, as I detailed above.
    You haven't detailed any such thing, you made up some numbers based on your nonsense attempt to use ranged attacks as non melee weapon melee attacks, and then you never did any analysis again except to say "I should be able to make an unarmed melee attack with no weapon an get a the bonus of a weapon to hypothetical attacks" but frankly, it's kind of the height of irony for you to complain about not knowing and accounting the specific bonus of the quantum fighter of infinite potions and feats that changes build every 3 posts.

    I gave you the number based on that character sheet you had at that time, It's really not my fault if you have since, or hypothetically intent to in the future, edit the character sheet to have a different bonus. That's not me forgetting a bonus, that's you not having a bonus now.

    If I can't even possibly know what your feats are because you reserve the right to quantum change them at any moment, then how the **** am I supposed to know you attack bonuses, even before you start complaining about how you can drink a potion of "Reckbeard's Rock Hands of No Disarming" which costs 78k gp, but of course fighters carry on them and use every day because why would they not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    As far as I can tell "metagame" to you means "use a gem of Seeing" and "attack a Pit Fiend as a Pit Fiend without making a DC 28 knowledge check". Calling every character that fails those tests "garbage" seems a bit extreme.
    "Well the DM just had to look up the rules for Silent Image in the middle of this fight with a monster, so I activate my limited use True Seeing Item" is literally the most absolutely bull**** example of metagaming I can possibly imagine in the universe, and that's basically your justification for using an item when you see a wall of ice. (That is in fact, totally real if you punch it or shoot it.)

    But sure keep deliberately lying about what I said because it undermines you.

    The point is that you have to metagame, because your character definitely 100% loses, instead of only like 85% losing, if you don't metagame. But Druids and Rogues and Clerics can attack a Pit Fiend as "an enemy" and still win, because they aren't garbage.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2017-07-18 at 12:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    An unarmed strike is not necessarily made with a hand:
    That's right, but it doesn't alter the outcome.

    The relevant text from Rules Compendium is:
    Quote Originally Posted by Resolving a Disarm
    ... If you attempted the disarm while unarmed, whether you're considered armed or not, you now have the weapon or item you targeted.
    After studying this, I realized I misinterpreted it---the 'whether you're considered armed or not' clause refers to the "armed" unarmed attacks section rather than improved unarmed strike. As such, natural attacks count as "armed" unarmed attacks and the Pit Fiend "has" the weapon. I'm shaky on what it means to have the weapon after you disarm with a wing or a tail slap, but eh.

    So we're at a 14% chance of a disarm where the Pit Fiend has the weapon with a claw or a 49% chance of a disarm on a full attack when the sniper is fully buffed but visible.
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    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Edit: Special Super funny note that is absolutely hilarious.

    Pit Fiend Free action Fear Aura acts as Fear Spell.
    Bone Devil Fear Aura is as Fear Spell.
    Pit Fiend can summon two Bone Devils and use his aura, then Bone Devils can use their Auras. (very small, so needs to know location)
    Fear spell "If the Will save succeeds, the creature is shaken for 1 round."
    Fear effects says: "Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead."
    Panicked: "A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear."

    So 1) You needed a Locked Gauntlet even if no one was going to disarm you, because you were going to drop your bow.

    2) If I was as completely anal as Anthrowhale and his attempts to read the rules in deliberately stupid ways, It would mean that after a bunch of free actions, you would have to no save, spend a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity to undo your locked gauntlet, and then drop the bow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    So we're at a 14% chance of a disarm where the Pit Fiend has the weapon with a claw or a 49% chance of a disarm on a full attack when the sniper is fully buffed but visible.
    God it's really annoying when you just make up nonsense numbers and lie.

    Here is your actual number according to the rules (EDIT: His actual number is even lower, because he's shaken for everything but the AoO), instead of according to made up nonsense, that you oppose the disarm check with an unarmed melee attack with a ranged weapon. If you are "fully buffed":

    +20 BAB, +2 Size, +2 Strength, -4 a non melee weapon, +2 Good Hope, +1 Haste, +1 Competence, +10 Locked Gauntlet = +34. That's your entire bonus. There are no other bonuses. You don't get bonuses from a magic item you aren't attacking with to an attack roll.

    Here is the actual set of actions that the Pit Fiend would use to take your bow away:

    0) Readied Action: Theoretically this could be a disarm, but it won't be, because there's a much better readied action.
    1) Attack of Opportunity on your second attack when you are no longer invisible. This is +38 vs +34.
    3) Turn begins, if not already disarmed (and even if you are) Free action fear aura: +22 against DC 27, because you incorrectly counted morale bonuses as stacking rather than overlapping, so a 20% chance you drop your bow and lose.
    4) Full attack of Unarmed Strike, Unarmed Strike, Unarmed Strike, Unarmed Strike (iteratives as primary weapon), Claw, Claw, Wing Attack, Wing Attack, Bite, Tail.

    The Pit Fiends attack rolls for the disarms are: +18 BAB, +13 Strength, +12 being three size categories larger, -4 light weapon, -1 Size = +38 base. -5 for each iterative, -2 for Secondary Natural Weapons.

    Plus the results of treasure that the Pit Fiend by definition gets to use, according to both his MM entry, and the MM and DMG rules for treasure, no matter how much you refuse to admit that.

    So his routine is at least +38/+33/+28/+23/+36/+36/+36/+36/+36/+36 Against your fully buffed +34, quite possibly higher.

    The rules don't actually specify what happens in a tie, so assuming you maintain your weapon in a tie.

    So the actual chances that you lose your weapon, not counting the readied attack are:

    66% AoO, 20% chance of a failed save, 66%/42.75%/22.75%/9%/57.25%/57.25%/57.25%/57.25%/57.25%/57.25% of each attack For a total chance of not being disarmed of:

    .02271851%

    For the record, it was less than 1% from just the natural weapon attacks, not even taking into account the unarmed, the AoO, and the save.

    So yes, Bad news. You probably don't keep your weapon if you let the Pit Fiend full attack you.


    If you assume that none of these attacks take the bow, and all only knock to the ground (At least unarmed and claws should take), then his next attack has a 95% chance of breaking the bow, and he repeats as many remaining attacks as he wants.

    If, for any reason, only the very last attack disarmed you, then he would just quicken fireball the bow, and I'm not sure the math, but that might very well destroy it. Also, a likely summon could pick it up or attack it and break it, or whatever.

    EDIT: Except all my math is wrong, because you have even less of a chance, since you would be shaken, and take a -2 penalty to everything post fear aura.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2017-07-18 at 09:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    I've decided to stop responding to comments which are too uncivil for a reasonable conversation.

    If anyone else has concerns about fighter vs. Pit Fiend, I'm happy to discuss with reasonable people.

    Otherwise, I'll probably try to make a summary at some point in the future. The short version is: the fighter is a very strong threat to a stock Pit Fiend. With surprise and winning initiative, which is plausible given stealth and initiative advantages, the Pit Fiend dies. If the Pit Fiend gets to act then it can plausibly win in confined areas via Wish. For more mixed settings the outcome seems less clear and much would depend in practice on the tactical interaction of the Pit Fiend and the Fighter.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I've decided to stop responding to comments which are too uncivil for a reasonable conversation.

    If anyone else has concerns about fighter vs. Pit Fiend, I'm happy to discuss with reasonable people.

    Otherwise, I'll probably try to make a summary at some point in the future. The short version is: the fighter is a very strong threat to a stock Pit Fiend. With surprise and winning initiative, which is plausible given stealth and initiative advantages, the Pit Fiend dies. If the Pit Fiend gets to act then it can plausibly win in confined areas via Wish. For more mixed settings the outcome seems less clear and much would depend in practice on the tactical interaction of the Pit Fiend and the Fighter.
    The problem seems to be that in an arena fight you assume you have surprise, and that the number totals you give constantly fall under question.

    I'm not arguing that a fighter can't win, just that with the egregious errors you have posted calls many others things into question.

    Also the assumptions on where the enemy is(or is not) and when to use certain items seems to be under a very meta judgement.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    The problem seems to be that in an arena fight you assume you have surprise, and that the number totals you give constantly fall under question.
    Where do you see that? I don't think anyone has assumed surprise for the fighter in the arena fight discussions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    Also the assumptions on where the enemy is(or is not) and when to use certain items seems to be under a very meta judgement.
    Yeah, this is where the tactical decisions come into play.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Where do you see that? I don't think anyone has assumed surprise for the fighter in the arena fight discussions.

    Yeah, this is where the tactical decisions come into play.
    If by tactical decision you mean, use the exact arrows and oils to damage the pit fiend, without identifying it, and using a gem of true seeing when you see a persistent image but never made a will save, then yes completely tactical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    With surprise and winning initiative, which is plausible given stealth and initiative advantages, the Pit Fiend dies.
    There is an insinuation of getting surprise.

    So all in all that's what I mean by meta. We spent 3 pages on arguing on a fight scenario that wouldn't favor either side, and 10+pages on detect magic, 2 pages on disarming/sundering, and maybe 1 page of what would actually happen.

    Now I'm trying to stay impartial, but when you deny that you said something one post back, it does seem to call other things you have said into question.

    And of note and not pointed out by either side yet, the pit fiend has hide/Ms as well. He can hide from the fighter as well, not including usage of it's other skills.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    If by tactical decision you mean, use the exact arrows and oils to damage the pit fiend, without identifying it,
    1. The +5 greater magic weapon oil lasts for 20 hours so just using it at the start of the day is a reasonable policy. This is the one that really matters as far as doing damage. The others have shorter durations so their use is more tactical but in many case the identity is unnecessary for effective use. If something makes an ice wall that you need to get over, then you use the potion of fly, and if something is seeing through invisibility, use the dust of disappearance.
    2. You actually suggested a reasonable solution: just one of each arrow. There are 4 kinds of arrows and manyshot allows shooting 4 arrows, so if you try one of each in the surprise round and then use the cheapest arrow that works well for a full attack the Pit Fiend still dies.
    3. Knowledge checks to identify monsters seem obviously badly miswritten. It leads to absurdity twice:
      1. Only Bards and Wizards (if they take the right skill) in core can tell what high level monsters they are fighting? That seems implausible.
      2. You can identify a wyrmling black dragon and know that it breathes acid, but the much larger Wyrm Black dragon is unidentifiable. Eh?

      My expectation is that in typical real games, it is not played this way, and that is what I've experienced personally so it's hard for me to take the complaint seriously.
    4. D&D is a group game, not a solo game. I think it's entirely reasonable to have a fighter advised by a wizard (hopefully via Telepathic Bond) and that a fighter advised by a wizard can remain an effective character---this is my experience.



    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    and using a gem of true seeing when you see a persistent image but never made a will save, then yes completely tactical.
    Let's suppose we adopt a policy of use the gem:
    1. Whenever something appears out of nowhere.
    2. For every round of combat.
    3. Every 100' traveled by foot.

    Then, the Gem provide true seeing for 5.6 miles covered in 5 hours of 10'/round skulking or 300 rounds of combat & things appearing out of nowhere (or a mixture). That's a fair fraction of an adventuring day. I'm sure some character traverse more than 5 miles of dungeon in a day, but (again) a group of characters could easily share scouting responsibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    There is an insinuation of getting surprise. ... Now I'm trying to stay impartial, but when you deny that you said something one post back, it does seem to call other things you have said into question.
    I see, I need to qualify things more. For the cage match, no surprise was used or meant.

    I was referring to other situations generally---that's the natural consequence of a high Hide+MS+Invisibility+Spot+see invisible/ethereal 120'+periodic true seeing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    And of note and not pointed out by either side yet, the pit fiend has hide/Ms as well. He can hide from the fighter as well, not including usage of it's other skills.
    Actually, I analysed this in the beginning---look under "detection and surprise". More generally, read through that section to see why the fighter has a reasonable chance of achieving surprise in many environments.
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    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Only Bards and Wizards (if they take the right skill) in core can tell what high level monsters they are fighting? That seems implausible.
    You can identify a wyrmling black dragon and know that it breathes acid, but the much larger Wyrm Black dragon is unidentifiable. Eh?
    The rules are, in fact, routinely implausible at best, and incoherent at worst.

    This isn't a very good argument in a RAW debate.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-07-20 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Where do you see that? I don't think anyone has assumed surprise for the fighter in the arena fight discussions.
    I'm just going to leave this here...
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You actually suggested a reasonable solution: just one of each arrow. There are 4 kinds of arrows and manyshot allows shooting 4 arrows, so if you try one of each in the surprise round and then use the cheapest arrow that works well for a full attack the Pit Fiend still dies.
    Last edited by nolongerchaos; 2017-07-20 at 06:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    The rules are, in fact, routinely implausible at best, and incoherent at worst.

    This isn't a very good argument in a RAW debate.
    I believe the Rules As Played do have some relevance in a debate about whether a Fighter is capable of carrying their weight in the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolongerchaos View Post
    I'm just going to leave this here...
    The reason to discuss surprise as often as I do is because that is typical consequence of Hide/Spot advantage of 23(unbuffed) to 45 (buffed), a Move Silently/Listen advantage of 16 (unbuffed) to infinity (buffed), and a Spot/Hide advantage of 6 as well as being 1 1/2 feet tall.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
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    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I believe the Rules As Played do have some relevance in a debate about whether a Fighter is capable of carrying their weight in the party.
    Notable rules as played like:

    1) "The DM has to tell me exactly what monster I'm going to fight so I can build a character that can only fight that monster and instantly loses to every other."
    and
    2) "I'm allowed to completely respec my character mid fight whenever I want."
    and
    3) "Every time an enemy monster uses an SLA that I don't like, I declare using that SLA to be against the rules and demand the DM not be allowed to do that."

    You can't say "the rules as played" to explain your metagaming during the fight, but then rely on "if any fighter ever could actually beat a Pit Fiend, then it counts, so I'm allowed to respec every time something happens that would result in my losing." to explain your metagaming before the fight.

    Those are mutually contradictory metagaming. As played, people don't get to respec 30 times mid fight. As RAW, they don't get to know everything about monsters with no checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    The reason to discuss surprise as often as I do is because that is typical consequence of Hide/Spot advantage of 23(unbuffed) to 45 (buffed), a Move Silently/Listen advantage of 16 (unbuffed) to infinity (buffed), and a Spot/Hide advantage of 6 as well as being 1 1/2 feet tall.
    The most common result of someone who says a command word every 3 minutes (Pit Fiend detects on a 1 from 300ft, 395ft on a 10) and moves 10ft per round (300ft in 3 minutes) is that the Pit Fiend hears you casting a spell, knows you are there, and responds by using his environmental control abilities such as Persistent Image to arrange for the fight before you even know he's there.

    The rules are not great in D&D for surprise rounds and such, but he knows you are there before you know he's there, and then by RAW he gets to take infinite surprise rounds until you know about him (this is stupid and no one uses it) or the DM just starts things happening in turns, and you get to keep taking your turns while he keeps using his abilities until you find out about him.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    @ Beheld- Nice point on the command word item, but could the halfing whisper it and raise the base DC to 15? I don't think the difference matters in this encounter, this is more of a general rule thing.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    @ Beheld- Nice point on the command word item, but could the halfing whisper it and raise the base DC to 15? I don't think the difference matters in this encounter, this is more of a general rule thing.
    I actually pointed out the command word thing like.... 10 pages ago or something, it's just one of the many inconvenient facts that people skip over. But as for the whispering... maybe? This is one of the areas about which the games rules are just incomplete, like three dimensions. It says you have to "speak" the word. Can you speak the word by whispering? If so, you can now whisper all verbal components to spells (and everyone always will, 100% of the time, because there is literally no benefit to speaking instead mechanically for the players of characters) and that's a worse game. I'm inclined to believe that the requirement to speak command words and verbal components does not allow for whispering.

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