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2017-06-26, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- In the Playground, duh.
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2017-06-26, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I understand your frustration, Jormengand, but until we settle the underlying principles (e.g. whether it's better to judge fighter based only on class features or by all available character options), this argument is just talking past each other.
What I see needing to be argued is, "why is it better to test fighter with all character options" and, "why is it better to test fighter based on class features alone?"
To me, it seems clear that it depends on what you're testing FOR.
Raw ability against an encounter? All character options should be considered.
Comparative power relative to other classes? Only options unique to fighters should be considered.
We need to be careful not to conflate these two measurements.
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2017-06-26, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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- Omaha, NE
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
There aren't any class features unique to a Fighter in 3rd/3.5 edition of D&D. The Fighter only gets access to bonus feats as a class feature. I suppose you could look at Fighter only feats, but they're not anything special when you consider what feats other classes have access to that they don't. Weapon Specialization gives +2 damage. Maximized Spell increases all damage from a spell to its maximum. I don't think there are any feats that maximize the damage that a Fighter does when he swings his sword, even just a certain number of times per day. That doesn't mean that a Fighter is useless. It also doesn't mean that a Fighter isn't fun to play. But, honestly, Fighter is a better class to dip into, versus taking up to level 20.
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2017-06-26, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2017-06-26, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
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2017-06-26, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Oh, earlier on one of these goons was arguing that diplomacy on commoners was meant to be able to get oddly-specific information on a wizard from them, even if said wizard systematically wiped their memories.
(There was also a bit about how you supposedly can't astral project from the moon, and of course the ongoing argument about whether a fighter can kill a pit fiend without a real character's help which can generally be summarised as "No".)
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2017-06-26, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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- Omaha, NE
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Seriously, there's no need for name calling in these forums. Someone disagreeing with you is no reason for putting them down personally. The argument was that you could gather information about Wizards. Who you could get it from wasn't the point, just that there is a system built for getting information about enemies, and it would be stupid to go into a fight against someone without any information on them. The idea of a Wizard systematically wiping the memories of everyone who had ever seen them came up as a result of the suggestion that the Fighter would gather information before the fight, which is a very silly notion. Also, people have suggested a few builds that show a Fighter can kill a Pit Fiend, if allowed access to the magic items that they should be allowed access to. Why you're taking this so personally, I will never know.
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2017-06-26, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The main thing I will say on this topic is something I have said many times before - a Balor with perfect knowledge of the Fighter coming his way and who also has prep time to raise an army of minions and otherwise prepare the battlefield is a harder encounter than the MM Balor was designed to represent. Treating the static CR number in the Manual or Bestiary like it is gospel when no other aspect of the game's design is treated that way (and hell, we all know how accurate CR numbers themselves can be, while we're at it) is going to result in nothing but more flamewars and locked threads until the end of time.
Yes, Wizards and Clerics are superior. That has absolutely jack squat to do with the question "Can a level-appropriate Fighter with level-appropriate WBL take down a Balor/Pit Fiend." However true "Wizards do it more easily" might be, it has no bearing on the actual question.
I agree but would take it a step further: that underlined bit is completely irrelevant to the game unless you're running, I dunno, some kind of PvP Arena or something that 3.P clearly wasn't designed for.Last edited by Psyren; 2017-06-26 at 11:18 AM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-06-26, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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2017-06-26, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
It does seem rather clear that the Op proved the original premise, and a little petty to start complaining about a permanented level 1 spell.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-06-26, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
If the original premise was "Wizards and magic items are great", then sure. If the original premise was "Anyone can be good if you give them a ton of magic stuff", then sure. If the premise was "Fighters are a real class which actually does things", then no. The fact that "I'm building my fighter well!" is far less valuable than "I'm giving my fighter neat magic stuff!" is kinda proof of the fact that fighters don't do their job properly.
Also, the original original premise, lest we all forget (or lest we all never have known in the first place because this argument has gone on too long) is "A standard fighter in a standard game of D&D 3.5 doesn't do his job properly", not "Borderline-TO fighters don't do their job properly".
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2017-06-26, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
If a core only build borders on TO, same as using the actual rules for the game, then there´s no helping you.
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2017-06-26, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-06-26, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I will, strangely enough, agree with Florian here. I didn't think the example builds should have used combining or intelligent magic items, but mostly they're just fighters who take a bunch of feats to make them better at shooting arrows, buy a magic bow and arrow to shoot arrows better, and buy magic armor and other gear to have decent defenses. None of the magic items are particularly insane either, I suppose the most "egregious" thing is the robe of eyes which is unusual on a fighter, but it's a core magic item and it provides a very potent detection mode. It's also been shown to work without the intelligent item.
I guess we could make a core fighter and core commoner and see how the commoner does in comparison? I'm guessing not super great.Last edited by Zanos; 2017-06-26 at 01:01 PM.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2017-06-26, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The entire argument started when I said "Standard build core fighters don't do their job properly in 3.5", whereupon multiple posters threw a fit and posted multiple, non-standard core fighters in 3.5 and said "But you know if you allowed core/PF/custom items this would be even stronger" as though any of that proved their point. Yes, if you stack items on a fighter and give it stuff specifically to kill pit fiends, it can kill pit fiends. Sometimes. At length. But it can't without extreme difficulty, and no-one seems to understand that the majority of forumites don't play the game the way normal people do and therefore "Oh, I guess I'll carry around the best magic items in the game, carefully arrayed in such a way so as to optimally counter a pit fiend in this very optimised way" isn't how real people play the game.
And assuming PF unless the thread specifically limits it to 3.5 by tags is really stupid because there's a 3rd tag, a PF tag, and no 3.5 tag.
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2017-06-26, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
So, to finish off your point, what do you see a Fighter's job as? Because, the typical assumption (that I've seen) from players is the job of the Fighter is to stand between the enemy and those with fewer hit points, and hit it with something sharp/hard/pointy, while those with fewer hit points deal out more damage from behind his cover. And, it certainly isn't to solo Pit Fiends. I mean, you start these conversations on this forum and they always spiral out of control and turn into a shouting match that Wizards can do all the stuff a Fighter can do with a few spells, and then devolve further into just slinging insults. If Fighter isn't your preferred class, that is fine. But, honestly, at what point would you even admit that the Fighter was just built to be a physical combatant, and in that aspect, they do just fine? There's a reason that Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers are frequently called the meat shields.
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2017-06-26, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I will, strangely enough, agree with Florian here. I didn't think the example builds should have used combining or intelligent magic items, but mostly they're just fighters who take a bunch of feats to make them better at shooting arrows, buy a magic bow and arrow to shoot arrows better, and buy magic armor and other gear to have decent defenses. None of the magic items are particularly insane either, I suppose the most "egregious" thing is the robe of eyes which is unusual on a fighter, but it's a core magic item and it provides a very potent detection mode. It's also been shown to work without the intelligent item.
The entire argument started when I said "Standard build core fighters don't do their job properly in 3.5", whereupon multiple posters threw a fit and posted multiple, non-standard core fighters in 3.5 and said "But you know if you allowed core/PF/custom items this would be even stronger" as though any of that proved their point. Yes, if you stack items on a fighter and give it stuff specifically to kill pit fiends, it can kill pit fiends. Sometimes. At length. But it can't without extreme difficulty, and no-one seems to understand that the majority of forumites don't play the game the way normal people do and therefore "Oh, I guess I'll carry around the best magic items in the game, carefully arrayed in such a way so as to optimally counter a pit fiend in this very optimised way" isn't how real people play the gamethnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-06-26, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The fighter's job is to fight, and they should be able to put out a decent bit of damage as well as to take damage, rather than just being the get-in-the-way machine. The problem with the fighter even if you do see being in the way as their job is that enemies can just walk past the fighter with relative impunity a lot of the time, and it gets worse once you're fighting in three dimensions or the enemy has ranged attacks that do something.
And whether you see the fighter's job as to fight or to get in the way, often it's very easy to summon or become something that's better at fighting than said fighter.
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2017-06-26, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
YES.. after years of waiting it is proven You have to love them the incredible edible egg!
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2017-06-26, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Would you rather have your summoned creature, or your summoned creature and a Fighter, between you and the enemy? Yes, summoning is an exceptionally powerful ability. There are summoned creatures that can cast spells and tank. A summoned creature can act as a healer. Summoning is powerful. But, if you can summon a creature, your enemy can dispel it. Fighters can't be dispelled. And, at what point is the Fighter not fighting? The whole Commoner vs Fighter thing is silly, because a Fighter will always be hitting easier, more often, and harder, even given the same equipment. Fighters have a higher BAB, WAY more hit points, and a ton more feats, allowing them to specialize in specific fighting styles. Give a Fighter a Polearm, and some tripping abilities, chances are they can completely protect people, and prevent movement past them.
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2017-06-26, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Last edited by Jormengand; 2017-06-26 at 02:27 PM.
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2017-06-26, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Then I stand corrected, if your point was limited to core 3.5 fighters then I totally agree. However:
If you say "Fighters can't beat balors" in this subforum with no system, then yes, people are going to post about the system where that is a falsehood. Especially when the solution to the problem is as simple as "hey, use this, it's free!"
The spells required to, say, hedge the Fighters out of melee or banish them all to another plane tend to be much higher than the ones for summons though. And if we're talking core only, summons are extremely weak anyway.Last edited by Psyren; 2017-06-26 at 02:32 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-06-26, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I did mention that it was 3.5 originally, and also PF is a different system than 3.5 (It's a bit like saying "Well, in this homebrew fix of 3.5, fighters are good!" Wait, no, it's exactly like saying that) so people repeatedly attempting to bring it up isn't really helpful. Fighter in 3.5 and fighter in PF are different classes, and more importantly than the relatively minor numbers bonuses that PF gave to the fighter directly, all the stuff the fighters can get as peripherals is a lot better than 3.5, because they're two different systems.
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2017-06-26, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I seriously don't know where your hatred for the Fighter comes from, but at every point that you add on, I continue. Would you rather have your summoned monster, your friend's animal companion, your friend's summoned nature's ally, and your friend who is now a tiger; or, your summoned monster, your friend's animal companion, your friend's summoned nature's ally, your friend who is now a tiger, and a Fighter? Extra Fighters, especially played by people who can adequately position them to take full advantage of terrain, and their weapons, are always useful, even if they're not putting out 300+ damage every round to every enemy. And, if the player isn't playing them effectively it's the player's fault. So, play your Wizard summoner, and only buff yourself and your summoned pets instead of the party. The Fighter will still be able taking the damage that you could have been taking instead.
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2017-06-26, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-06-26, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
"PF = homebrew fix" is a pretty bad analogy, there is just about no homebrew that gets the kind of widespread audience that Paizo has. That's really all that a system boils down to when you get right down to it - WotC 1st-party stuff is only valuable because it's a language we all speak from having the books (especially core) ourselves. Pathfinder is the same. Like deities and GMs, these rules only matter because enough of us think they matter.
I do wonder though if you are at all interested in a solution, rather than just posting to vent. (Which, if that's the case, go right ahead - just keep in mind that since this is a discussion forum you'll probably get suggestions and solutions anyway, rather than just mute commiseration.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2017-06-26, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I would rather have another druid than a fighter. I would rather have a freaking adept than a fighter, especially at high levels because the adept is now a freaking dragon. I would rather have someone who is actually good at doing a fighter's nominal job, than a fighter. Is the point.
I created the Veteran. I think I have a solution: play something which isn't a fighter. But in order to make the solution work you do at least somewhat have to convince people there's a problem.Last edited by Jormengand; 2017-06-26 at 02:45 PM.
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2017-06-26, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
is it just me.. or when reading Jormengand's posts you cannot help but picture the fighter getting blasting by whatever red magic of pure rage and wrath his avatar is throwing at off screen?
also
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2017-06-26, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- In the Playground, duh.
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2017-06-26, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The point is that you don't like the Fighter, and have given no real reason why. The point of the Fighter is to fight, to defend, and to absorb damage. All of that is useful. So, answer me this, and don't deflect: when your Wizard is out of spells for the day, and all their contingencies are gone; no more summoning, or buffing, or teleporting away; would you rather have a Fighter standing between your Wizard and the enemy, or just get killed? Because even at level 20, the Wizard only has between 23 and 83 hit points, plus Con. And, we all know that enemies can tear through that in a single round with ease.