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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Right. Permanency Reduce Person is just below the 3K gp cutoff for routine spellcasting services.
    Yes, we understand that NPC wizards are powerful. I'm glad we're agreeing that "Bribe a wizard to help you do it" is now the best way to defeat a pit fiend as a fighter.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    I understand your frustration, Jormengand, but until we settle the underlying principles (e.g. whether it's better to judge fighter based only on class features or by all available character options), this argument is just talking past each other.

    What I see needing to be argued is, "why is it better to test fighter with all character options" and, "why is it better to test fighter based on class features alone?"

    To me, it seems clear that it depends on what you're testing FOR.

    Raw ability against an encounter? All character options should be considered.

    Comparative power relative to other classes? Only options unique to fighters should be considered.

    We need to be careful not to conflate these two measurements.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    There aren't any class features unique to a Fighter in 3rd/3.5 edition of D&D. The Fighter only gets access to bonus feats as a class feature. I suppose you could look at Fighter only feats, but they're not anything special when you consider what feats other classes have access to that they don't. Weapon Specialization gives +2 damage. Maximized Spell increases all damage from a spell to its maximum. I don't think there are any feats that maximize the damage that a Fighter does when he swings his sword, even just a certain number of times per day. That doesn't mean that a Fighter is useless. It also doesn't mean that a Fighter isn't fun to play. But, honestly, Fighter is a better class to dip into, versus taking up to level 20.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Yes, we understand that NPC wizards are powerful. I'm glad we're agreeing that "Bribe a wizard to help you do it" is now the best way to defeat a pit fiend as a fighter.
    I think paying for a permanent spell that can be explicitly cast on others is within the realm of sanity, unlike the ExFighter which is just a pure display of "look at this phenomenal power I got by paying a wizard."
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    This is mostly because I'm not going to believe that evil outsiders can't melt steel fighters, the moon astral projections were faked and we should wear tinfoil commoners to protect against mind control.
    I don not have a clue as to what is going on exactly. But the image of wearing tinfoil commoners is the 2nd greatest image I have ever had from these forums.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    I don not have a clue as to what is going on exactly. But the image of wearing tinfoil commoners is the 2nd greatest image I have ever had from these forums.
    Oh, earlier on one of these goons was arguing that diplomacy on commoners was meant to be able to get oddly-specific information on a wizard from them, even if said wizard systematically wiped their memories.

    (There was also a bit about how you supposedly can't astral project from the moon, and of course the ongoing argument about whether a fighter can kill a pit fiend without a real character's help which can generally be summarised as "No".)
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Oh, earlier on one of these goons was arguing that diplomacy on commoners was meant to be able to get oddly-specific information on a wizard from them, even if said wizard systematically wiped their memories.

    (There was also a bit about how you supposedly can't astral project from the moon, and of course the ongoing argument about whether a fighter can kill a pit fiend without a real character's help which can generally be summarised as "No".)
    Seriously, there's no need for name calling in these forums. Someone disagreeing with you is no reason for putting them down personally. The argument was that you could gather information about Wizards. Who you could get it from wasn't the point, just that there is a system built for getting information about enemies, and it would be stupid to go into a fight against someone without any information on them. The idea of a Wizard systematically wiping the memories of everyone who had ever seen them came up as a result of the suggestion that the Fighter would gather information before the fight, which is a very silly notion. Also, people have suggested a few builds that show a Fighter can kill a Pit Fiend, if allowed access to the magic items that they should be allowed access to. Why you're taking this so personally, I will never know.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    The main thing I will say on this topic is something I have said many times before - a Balor with perfect knowledge of the Fighter coming his way and who also has prep time to raise an army of minions and otherwise prepare the battlefield is a harder encounter than the MM Balor was designed to represent. Treating the static CR number in the Manual or Bestiary like it is gospel when no other aspect of the game's design is treated that way (and hell, we all know how accurate CR numbers themselves can be, while we're at it) is going to result in nothing but more flamewars and locked threads until the end of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    Of course the character that has all the same advantages PLUS more powerful spellcasting is going to be superior to any given task, unless you can find something unique to the noncasting class that is superior to the caster's spells. Good luck with that, btw.
    Yes, Wizards and Clerics are superior. That has absolutely jack squat to do with the question "Can a level-appropriate Fighter with level-appropriate WBL take down a Balor/Pit Fiend." However true "Wizards do it more easily" might be, it has no bearing on the actual question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pleh View Post
    To me, it seems clear that it depends on what you're testing FOR.

    Raw ability against an encounter? All character options should be considered.

    Comparative power relative to other classes? Only options unique to fighters should be considered.

    We need to be careful not to conflate these two measurements.
    I agree but would take it a step further: that underlined bit is completely irrelevant to the game unless you're running, I dunno, some kind of PvP Arena or something that 3.P clearly wasn't designed for.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2017-06-26 at 11:18 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Oh, earlier on one of these goons was arguing that diplomacy on commoners was meant to be able to get oddly-specific information on a wizard from them, even if said wizard systematically wiped their memories.

    (There was also a bit about how you supposedly can't astral project from the moon, and of course the ongoing argument about whether a fighter can kill a pit fiend without a real character's help which can generally be summarised as "No".)
    Is it shock or denial that the goal of this whole discussion has been met and fulfilled since the OP?
    What next? Call it cheating when talking about using a potion of CLW? Get over it.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    It does seem rather clear that the Op proved the original premise, and a little petty to start complaining about a permanented level 1 spell.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    It does seem rather clear that the Op proved the original premise, and a little petty to start complaining about a permanented level 1 spell.
    If the original premise was "Wizards and magic items are great", then sure. If the original premise was "Anyone can be good if you give them a ton of magic stuff", then sure. If the premise was "Fighters are a real class which actually does things", then no. The fact that "I'm building my fighter well!" is far less valuable than "I'm giving my fighter neat magic stuff!" is kinda proof of the fact that fighters don't do their job properly.

    Also, the original original premise, lest we all forget (or lest we all never have known in the first place because this argument has gone on too long) is "A standard fighter in a standard game of D&D 3.5 doesn't do his job properly", not "Borderline-TO fighters don't do their job properly".
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    If a core only build borders on TO, same as using the actual rules for the game, then there´s no helping you.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Also, the original original premise, lest we all forget (or lest we all never have known in the first place because this argument has gone on too long) is "A standard fighter in a standard game of D&D 3.5 doesn't do his job properly", not "Borderline-TO fighters don't do their job properly".
    I don't think anyone is denying that. Unless I miss my guess, I believe Florian assumes PF unless the thread specifically limits it to 3.5 via tags (which neither this thread nor the one that spawned it have done.)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    If a core only build borders on TO, same as using the actual rules for the game, then there´s no helping you.
    I will, strangely enough, agree with Florian here. I didn't think the example builds should have used combining or intelligent magic items, but mostly they're just fighters who take a bunch of feats to make them better at shooting arrows, buy a magic bow and arrow to shoot arrows better, and buy magic armor and other gear to have decent defenses. None of the magic items are particularly insane either, I suppose the most "egregious" thing is the robe of eyes which is unusual on a fighter, but it's a core magic item and it provides a very potent detection mode. It's also been shown to work without the intelligent item.

    I guess we could make a core fighter and core commoner and see how the commoner does in comparison? I'm guessing not super great.
    Last edited by Zanos; 2017-06-26 at 01:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Unless I miss my guess, I believe Florian assumes PF unless the thread specifically limits it to 3.5 via tags (which neither this thread nor the one that spawned it have done.)
    The entire argument started when I said "Standard build core fighters don't do their job properly in 3.5", whereupon multiple posters threw a fit and posted multiple, non-standard core fighters in 3.5 and said "But you know if you allowed core/PF/custom items this would be even stronger" as though any of that proved their point. Yes, if you stack items on a fighter and give it stuff specifically to kill pit fiends, it can kill pit fiends. Sometimes. At length. But it can't without extreme difficulty, and no-one seems to understand that the majority of forumites don't play the game the way normal people do and therefore "Oh, I guess I'll carry around the best magic items in the game, carefully arrayed in such a way so as to optimally counter a pit fiend in this very optimised way" isn't how real people play the game.

    And assuming PF unless the thread specifically limits it to 3.5 by tags is really stupid because there's a 3rd tag, a PF tag, and no 3.5 tag.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    The entire argument started when I said "Standard build core fighters don't do their job properly in 3.5", whereupon multiple posters threw a fit and posted multiple, non-standard core fighters in 3.5 and said "But you know if you allowed core/PF/custom items this would be even stronger" as though any of that proved their point. Yes, if you stack items on a fighter and give it stuff specifically to kill pit fiends, it can kill pit fiends. Sometimes. At length. But it can't without extreme difficulty, and no-one seems to understand that the majority of forumites don't play the game the way normal people do and therefore "Oh, I guess I'll carry around the best magic items in the game, carefully arrayed in such a way so as to optimally counter a pit fiend in this very optimised way" isn't how real people play the game.

    And assuming PF unless the thread specifically limits it to 3.5 by tags is really stupid because there's a 3rd tag, a PF tag, and no 3.5 tag.
    So, to finish off your point, what do you see a Fighter's job as? Because, the typical assumption (that I've seen) from players is the job of the Fighter is to stand between the enemy and those with fewer hit points, and hit it with something sharp/hard/pointy, while those with fewer hit points deal out more damage from behind his cover. And, it certainly isn't to solo Pit Fiends. I mean, you start these conversations on this forum and they always spiral out of control and turn into a shouting match that Wizards can do all the stuff a Fighter can do with a few spells, and then devolve further into just slinging insults. If Fighter isn't your preferred class, that is fine. But, honestly, at what point would you even admit that the Fighter was just built to be a physical combatant, and in that aspect, they do just fine? There's a reason that Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers are frequently called the meat shields.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    I will, strangely enough, agree with Florian here. I didn't think the example builds should have used combining or intelligent magic items, but mostly they're just fighters who take a bunch of feats to make them better at shooting arrows, buy a magic bow and arrow to shoot arrows better, and buy magic armor and other gear to have decent defenses. None of the magic items are particularly insane either, I suppose the most "egregious" thing is the robe of eyes which is unusual on a fighter, but it's a core magic item and it provides a very potent detection mode. It's also been shown to work without the intelligent item.
    There is another example build on page 2 that dont use intelligent magic items.

    The entire argument started when I said "Standard build core fighters don't do their job properly in 3.5", whereupon multiple posters threw a fit and posted multiple, non-standard core fighters in 3.5 and said "But you know if you allowed core/PF/custom items this would be even stronger" as though any of that proved their point. Yes, if you stack items on a fighter and give it stuff specifically to kill pit fiends, it can kill pit fiends. Sometimes. At length. But it can't without extreme difficulty, and no-one seems to understand that the majority of forumites don't play the game the way normal people do and therefore "Oh, I guess I'll carry around the best magic items in the game, carefully arrayed in such a way so as to optimally counter a pit fiend in this very optimised way" isn't how real people play the game
    Well.. if you want to go by how normal people play the game, then a lot of the time tier 1-2 classes will also die if fighting the Balor unprepared, since Dominate Monster/Power word Stun/Implosion are all rather nasty tricks.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    So, to finish off your point, what do you see a Fighter's job as? Because, the typical assumption (that I've seen) from players is the job of the Fighter is to stand between the enemy and those with fewer hit points, and hit it with something sharp/hard/pointy, while those with fewer hit points deal out more damage from behind his cover. And, it certainly isn't to solo Pit Fiends. I mean, you start these conversations on this forum and they always spiral out of control and turn into a shouting match that Wizards can do all the stuff a Fighter can do with a few spells, and then devolve further into just slinging insults. If Fighter isn't your preferred class, that is fine. But, honestly, at what point would you even admit that the Fighter was just built to be a physical combatant, and in that aspect, they do just fine? There's a reason that Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers are frequently called the meat shields.
    The fighter's job is to fight, and they should be able to put out a decent bit of damage as well as to take damage, rather than just being the get-in-the-way machine. The problem with the fighter even if you do see being in the way as their job is that enemies can just walk past the fighter with relative impunity a lot of the time, and it gets worse once you're fighting in three dimensions or the enemy has ranged attacks that do something.

    And whether you see the fighter's job as to fight or to get in the way, often it's very easy to summon or become something that's better at fighting than said fighter.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    "egregious"
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    "egegios"
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    "eggio"
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    "egg"
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    The fighter's job is to fight, and they should be able to put out a decent bit of damage as well as to take damage, rather than just being the get-in-the-way machine. The problem with the fighter even if you do see being in the way as their job is that enemies can just walk past the fighter with relative impunity a lot of the time, and it gets worse once you're fighting in three dimensions or the enemy has ranged attacks that do something.

    And whether you see the fighter's job as to fight or to get in the way, often it's very easy to summon or become something that's better at fighting than said fighter.
    Would you rather have your summoned creature, or your summoned creature and a Fighter, between you and the enemy? Yes, summoning is an exceptionally powerful ability. There are summoned creatures that can cast spells and tank. A summoned creature can act as a healer. Summoning is powerful. But, if you can summon a creature, your enemy can dispel it. Fighters can't be dispelled. And, at what point is the Fighter not fighting? The whole Commoner vs Fighter thing is silly, because a Fighter will always be hitting easier, more often, and harder, even given the same equipment. Fighters have a higher BAB, WAY more hit points, and a ton more feats, allowing them to specialize in specific fighting styles. Give a Fighter a Polearm, and some tripping abilities, chances are they can completely protect people, and prevent movement past them.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    Would you rather have your summoned creature, or your summoned creature and a Fighter, between you and the enemy?
    I'd rather have my summoned monster, and my friend's animal companion, and my friend's summoned nature's ally, and my friend who is now also a tiger because screw it, why not? Fighters don't cut it compared to summoned creatures, most of the time.
    Last edited by Jormengand; 2017-06-26 at 02:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    The entire argument started when I said "Standard build core fighters don't do their job properly in 3.5", whereupon multiple posters threw a fit and posted multiple, non-standard core fighters in 3.5 and said "But you know if you allowed core/PF/custom items this would be even stronger" as though any of that proved their point. Yes, if you stack items on a fighter and give it stuff specifically to kill pit fiends, it can kill pit fiends. Sometimes. At length. But it can't without extreme difficulty, and no-one seems to understand that the majority of forumites don't play the game the way normal people do and therefore "Oh, I guess I'll carry around the best magic items in the game, carefully arrayed in such a way so as to optimally counter a pit fiend in this very optimised way" isn't how real people play the game.
    Then I stand corrected, if your point was limited to core 3.5 fighters then I totally agree. However:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    And assuming PF unless the thread specifically limits it to 3.5 by tags is really stupid because there's a 3rd tag, a PF tag, and no 3.5 tag.
    If you say "Fighters can't beat balors" in this subforum with no system, then yes, people are going to post about the system where that is a falsehood. Especially when the solution to the problem is as simple as "hey, use this, it's free!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I'd rather have my summoned monster, and my friend's animal companion, and my friend's summoned nature's ally, and my friend who is now also a tiger because screw it, why not? Fighters don't cut it compared to summoned creatures, most of the time.
    The spells required to, say, hedge the Fighters out of melee or banish them all to another plane tend to be much higher than the ones for summons though. And if we're talking core only, summons are extremely weak anyway.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2017-06-26 at 02:32 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Then I stand corrected, if your point was limited to core 3.5 fighters then I totally agree. However:

    If you say "Fighters can't beat balors" in this subforum with no system, then yes, people are going to post about the system where that is a falsehood. Especially when the solution to the problem is as simple as "hey, use this, it's free!"
    I did mention that it was 3.5 originally, and also PF is a different system than 3.5 (It's a bit like saying "Well, in this homebrew fix of 3.5, fighters are good!" Wait, no, it's exactly like saying that) so people repeatedly attempting to bring it up isn't really helpful. Fighter in 3.5 and fighter in PF are different classes, and more importantly than the relatively minor numbers bonuses that PF gave to the fighter directly, all the stuff the fighters can get as peripherals is a lot better than 3.5, because they're two different systems.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I'd rather have my summoned monster, and my friend's animal companion, and my friend's summoned nature's ally, and my friend who is now also a tiger because screw it, why not? Fighters don't cut it compared to summoned creatures, most of the time.
    I seriously don't know where your hatred for the Fighter comes from, but at every point that you add on, I continue. Would you rather have your summoned monster, your friend's animal companion, your friend's summoned nature's ally, and your friend who is now a tiger; or, your summoned monster, your friend's animal companion, your friend's summoned nature's ally, your friend who is now a tiger, and a Fighter? Extra Fighters, especially played by people who can adequately position them to take full advantage of terrain, and their weapons, are always useful, even if they're not putting out 300+ damage every round to every enemy. And, if the player isn't playing them effectively it's the player's fault. So, play your Wizard summoner, and only buff yourself and your summoned pets instead of the party. The Fighter will still be able taking the damage that you could have been taking instead.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I did mention that it was 3.5 originally, and also PF is a different system than 3.5 (It's a bit like saying "Well, in this homebrew fix of 3.5, fighters are good!" Wait, no, it's exactly like saying that) so people repeatedly attempting to bring it up isn't really helpful. Fighter in 3.5 and fighter in PF are different classes, and more importantly than the relatively minor numbers bonuses that PF gave to the fighter directly, all the stuff the fighters can get as peripherals is a lot better than 3.5, because they're two different systems.
    To be fair, when looking at the core system, they're practically identical.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I did mention that it was 3.5 originally, and also PF is a different system than 3.5 (It's a bit like saying "Well, in this homebrew fix of 3.5, fighters are good!" Wait, no, it's exactly like saying that) so people repeatedly attempting to bring it up isn't really helpful. Fighter in 3.5 and fighter in PF are different classes, and more importantly than the relatively minor numbers bonuses that PF gave to the fighter directly, all the stuff the fighters can get as peripherals is a lot better than 3.5, because they're two different systems.
    "PF = homebrew fix" is a pretty bad analogy, there is just about no homebrew that gets the kind of widespread audience that Paizo has. That's really all that a system boils down to when you get right down to it - WotC 1st-party stuff is only valuable because it's a language we all speak from having the books (especially core) ourselves. Pathfinder is the same. Like deities and GMs, these rules only matter because enough of us think they matter.

    I do wonder though if you are at all interested in a solution, rather than just posting to vent. (Which, if that's the case, go right ahead - just keep in mind that since this is a discussion forum you'll probably get suggestions and solutions anyway, rather than just mute commiseration.)


    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Jette View Post
    I seriously don't know where your hatred for the Fighter comes from, but at every point that you add on, I continue. Would you rather have your summoned monster, your friend's animal companion, your friend's summoned nature's ally, and your friend who is now a tiger; or, your summoned monster, your friend's animal companion, your friend's summoned nature's ally, your friend who is now a tiger, and a Fighter?
    I would rather have another druid than a fighter. I would rather have a freaking adept than a fighter, especially at high levels because the adept is now a freaking dragon. I would rather have someone who is actually good at doing a fighter's nominal job, than a fighter. Is the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I do wonder though if you are at all interested in a solution, rather than just posting to vent. (Which, if that's the case, go right ahead - just keep in mind that since this is a discussion forum you'll probably get suggestions and solutions anyway, rather than just mute commiseration.)
    I created the Veteran. I think I have a solution: play something which isn't a fighter. But in order to make the solution work you do at least somewhat have to convince people there's a problem.
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    You know, it would be really meta if I sigged this.

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    is it just me.. or when reading Jormengand's posts you cannot help but picture the fighter getting blasting by whatever red magic of pure rage and wrath his avatar is throwing at off screen?


    also

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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    is it just me.. or when reading Jormengand's posts you cannot help but picture the fighter getting blasting by whatever red magic of pure rage and wrath his avatar is throwing at off screen?
    I mean, you can add "Truenamer" to the list of classes which are better than fighters if you like, because that's what class the person in the avatar is.

    Also I'm not a "He".
    Blood, Sweat and Tiers: Epic Adventures in a World of Grievous Power Imbalance My homebrew.
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    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I would rather have another druid than a fighter. I would rather have a freaking adept than a fighter, especially at high levels because the adept is now a freaking dragon. I would rather have someone who is actually good at doing a fighter's nominal job, than a fighter. Is the point.
    The point is that you don't like the Fighter, and have given no real reason why. The point of the Fighter is to fight, to defend, and to absorb damage. All of that is useful. So, answer me this, and don't deflect: when your Wizard is out of spells for the day, and all their contingencies are gone; no more summoning, or buffing, or teleporting away; would you rather have a Fighter standing between your Wizard and the enemy, or just get killed? Because even at level 20, the Wizard only has between 23 and 83 hit points, plus Con. And, we all know that enemies can tear through that in a single round with ease.

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