Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[ColorBlindNinja]

Then start following it. Right now you're ignoring the RAW on tactics,

It's not RAW, it's recommended tactics; those aren't rules.

Beheld is ignoring the RAW on terrain,

How?

chain-gaters are ignoring the RAW on what constitutes behaving like a Player Character which transforms a monster into a PC with CR=RHD+LA.

Magically summoned allies don't add to CR.

And all of that just so you can threaten a measly Core Fighter who nobly isn't exploiting what's RAWly given to all PCs. That's just a pathetic showing.

What's pathetic is that team Fighter has to jump through hoops and distort the rules in a futile effort to win a debate.

Edit:

a measly Core Fighter who nobly isn't exploiting what's RAWly given to all PCs.

Fighters abusing UMD, Fighters abusing Magic Items, Fighters abusing Tower Shields. Care to retract that statement?

[Tainted_Scholar]

chain-gaters are ignoring the RAW on what constitutes behaving like a Player Character which transforms a monster into a PC with CR=RHD+LA.

Whoa whoa, back up there. What the #%$[ are you talking about!? How does chain gating turn the Planetar into a PC? By what rule basis are making that claim? That has seriously got to be the single weakest argument I've seen thus far in this thread.

[Anthrowhale]

No, the Fighter is unaware of the Planetar's existence when it appears, the Planetar can take a 5-foot step through the Gate as soon as it casts it. That begins the Surprise Round.

Starting state: Fighter is unaware.
Planetar casts gate -> Fighter becomes aware of gate.
Planetar steps through gate -> Fighter becomes aware of Planetar.
Combat starts. Is the Fighter aware of the Planetar? Yes. Therefore, the Fighter is not surprised.

The Fighter still has to move over 1,500' to get out of range. Edit: Of both spells, that is.

Just plain wrong. The only way to reach these dimension is to imagine that the fighter is underneath the Planetar on the edge of effect then it crosses the entire diameter (680'+680'=1360') of the AOE to the far edge, then moves 275' further. Instead of this, the fighter can just move 275' the other direction.

Emphasis mine; that implies you thought that the Planetar is hunting down the Fighter. Unless I misunderstood what you meant?

Yes. I find it implausible that Planetars take missions to assassinate evil-killing fighters.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself; Contact Other Planes tells the Planetar where the Fighter is, so it can see him.

You should never expect wrong claims to work. You said:

The Planetar is using Contact Other Planes to locate the Fighter so he can use Discern Location.

Contact Other Planes does not help you use Discern Location because it does nothing to satisfy the prerequisites for Discern Location.

[Beheld]

Whoa whoa, back up there. What the #%$[ are you talking about!? How does chain gating turn the Planetar into a PC? By what rule basis are making that claim? That has seriously got to be the single weakest argument I've seen thus far in this thread.

He actually believes that monsters using their treasure, as they are explicitly defined as doing in the Monster Manual, counts as them "becoming PCs" too.

[Anthrowhale]

His confusion about Surprise Rounds, SLA casting times, how Mummies fear aura's work, ect.

W.r.t. Surprise rounds, you are wrong.

W.r.t. SLA casting times, eh. The SRD "gets it wrong" here so I believe I may be forgiven.

No idea what you are talking about w.r.t. Mummy fear aura.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Contact Other Planes does not help you use Discern Location because it does nothing to satisfy the prerequisites for Discern Location.

Deer Gods Anthrowhale, will you take a minute to actually read what you quote?

He said "The Planetar is using Contact Other Planes to locate the Fighter so he can use Discern Location"

The Planetar uses C.O.P. to track down the Fighter, and then once he's seen him he use Discern Location to keep tabs on him and wait until the Fighter is vulnerable.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Starting state: Fighter is unaware.
Planetar casts gate -> Fighter becomes aware of gate.
Planetar steps through gate -> Fighter becomes aware of Planetar.
Combat starts. Is the Fighter aware of the Planetar? Yes. Therefore, the Fighter is not surprised.

Gate != Planetar.

Just plain wrong. The only way to reach these dimension is to imagine that the fighter is underneath the Planetar on the edge of effect then it crosses the entire diameter (680'+680'=1360') of the AOE to the far edge, then moves 275' further. Instead of this, the fighter can just move 275' the other direction.

If you don't stop ignoring my posts I'm not responding to you. If the Fighter isn't farther than 1,500' away, he isn't out of range of either spell. He has to be 1360' away to be out of Control Winds, he has to be 270' from the edge to be out of Holy Smite range; total 1630'.

Edit: Here's a diagram:

< = Control Winds
H = Holy Smite

HHH<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

If the Fighter is standing anywhere an H or a < is, he can be effected with Holy Smite. The Planetar can easily move within the effect (probably faster, or as fast as the Fighter). Unless the Fighter can move a total of 1630', he's in an AoE of a spell.

Yes. I find it implausible that Planetars take missions to assassinate evil-killing fighters.

Your quote implied the opposite.

You should never expect wrong claims to work.

You're not serious.

You said:

Contact Other Planes does not help you use Discern Location because it does nothing to satisfy the prerequisites for Discern Location.

Since apparently you don't get it:

CONTACT OTHER PLANES LETS THE PLANETAR FIND THE FIGHTER; IT ASKS QUESTIONS UNTIL IT CAN PIN DOWN HIS LOCATION. THE PLANETAR TRAVELS TOO HIM, AND THUS HAS SEEN HIM SO IT CAN USE DISCERN LOCATION.

Get it?

Edit:

W.r.t. Surprise rounds, you are wrong.

No, I'm not.

W.r.t. SLA casting times, eh. The SRD "gets it wrong" here so I believe I may be forgiven.

Fine.

No idea what you are talking about w.r.t. Mummy fear aura.

The Pit Fiend isn't in danger from the Mummies fear aura.

[emeraldstreak]

THE PLANETAR TRAVELS TOO HIM, AND THUS HAS SEEN HIM SO IT CAN USE DISCERN LOCATION.

So the monster sees the Fighter but chooses to retreat? Isn't that a defeat?

Remember, monsters don't get to live the life of PCs, and those that do become PCs of CR=RHD+LA.

[Tainted_Scholar]

So the monster sees the Fighter but chooses to retreat? Isn't that a defeat?

Did you read my post on the matter? The planetar keeps tabs on the Fighter and waits til he's sleeping.

Remember, monsters don't get to live the life of PCs, and those that do become PCs of CR=RHD+LA.

Citation needed.

[Anthrowhale]

Gate != Planetar.

This is a true irrelevant statement. Since you don't have a response, my argument stands.

If the Fighter isn't farther than 1,500' away, he isn't out of range of either spell.

The claim is formally false and your diagram is wrong. The starting diagram is:

HHH<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<P<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

Where P is the location of the Planetar and the Sniper near the center of Control winds. As the Sniper walks away we reach this diagram

HHHP<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

after 680' of traversal. Critically, this is not 1360' feat of traversal because Control Winds has an AOE with a 40'/level radius = 40*17 = 680. And then after 275' more we reach this diagram.

SHHHP<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

At this point, the Planetar cannot use Holy Smite without exposure to lethal arrow fire.

CONTACT OTHER PLANES LETS THE PLANETAR FIND THE FIGHTER; IT ASKS QUESTIONS UNTIL IT CAN PIN DOWN HIS LOCATION. THE PLANETAR TRAVELS TOO HIM, AND THUS HAS SEEN HIM SO IT CAN USE DISCERN LOCATION.

Ah, you left out the middle step where the Planetar meets the Fighter. Honestly, as long as the Planetar is peaceful, I wouldn't expect the Fighter to kill on sight in a real game. But since we seem to be operating under the assumption that both opponents are aware of each other and lethally minded the Planetar may indeed die here.

The Pit Fiend isn't in danger from the Mummies fear aura.

Yeah, I don't believe that. The Mummy's fear aura can and occasionally does paralyze the Pit Fiend. Nothing in the rules prevents this. (The Fighter is immune on account of it being a paralysis effect and hence countered by Freedom of Movement.)

[emeraldstreak]

Citation needed.

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

How does that at all back up what you say?

[emeraldstreak]

How does that at all back up what you say?

It backs up that the CR of a Planetar played like a PC and not a monster is RHD+LA.

Planetars don't have LA (aren't meant to be played as PCs under any circumstances) but if they did it would be higher than anything in the MM, so at least 10, and an appropriate all-Fighter opponent would be an Epic Character.

[Beheld]

Critically, this is not 1360' feat of traversal because Control Winds has an AOE of 40'/level = 40*17 = 680. And then after 275' more we reach this diagram.

You should read the spell before saying dumb things like always, it's a 40ft radius. Check what a Radius is.

The Mummy's fear aura can and occasionally does paralyze the Pit Fiend. Nothing in the rules prevents this. (The Fighter is immune on account of it being a paralysis effect and hence countered by Freedom of Movement.)

Except you know, that there are like 6 different ways the Pit Fiend can never even have to make a save, and even if he did have to make a save, and failed the save, paralysis literally doesn't do anything but mildly inconvenience him, because he can still greater teleport while paralyzed.

It backs up that the CR of a Planetar played like a PC and not a monster is RHD+LA.

Planetars don't have LA (aren't meant to be played as PCs under any circumstances) but if they did it would be higher than anything in the MM, so at least 10, and an appropriate all-Fighter opponent would be an Epic Character.

Here's the thing, the part people are questioning is your claim that if the Planatar:

1) Uses the treasure the MM specifically says it uses.
2) changes spells.
3) Cast spells instead of meleeing.
4) takes actions when the fighter isn't present.


that this makes it a PC. You have not provided a citation for these claims, and you never will. Because there is none.

[emeraldstreak]

You should read the spell before saying dumb things like always, it's a 40ft radius. Check what a Radius is.



Except you know, that there are like 6 different ways the Pit Fiend can never even have to make a save, and even if he did have to make a save, and failed the save, paralysis literally doesn't do anything but mildly inconvenience him, because he can still greater teleport while paralyzed.



Here's the thing, the part people are questioning is your claim that if the Planatar:

1) Uses the treasure the MM specifically says it uses.
2) changes spells.
3) Cast spells instead of meleeing.
4) takes actions when the fighter isn't present.


that this makes it a PC. You have not provided a citation for these claims, and you never will. Because there is none.

A RAW citation of the Planetar being more likely to melee than cast was provided. To satisfy this ironclad RAW requirement your side has to presume the Planetar melees (and loses, really) 51% of the time. The other 49% are still up for grabs.

Changing spells - I don't claim anything other than it resulting in not being the stock MM, which is self-evident.

4) A monster most certainly loses in retreat. So there are no 'after' actions. Still investigating taking before actions as monster and not a character.

[Beheld]

A RAW citation of the Planetar being more likely to melee than cast was provided. To satisfy this ironclad RAW requirement your side has to presume the Planetar melees (and loses, really) 51% of the time. The other 49% are still up for grabs.

Changing spells - I don't claim anything other than it resulting in not being the stock MM, which is self-evident.

4) A monster most certainly loses in retreat. So there are no 'after' actions. Still investigating taking before actions as monster and not a character.

So you have no citation for any of your claims at all. Since you still haven't given a citation for how it's breaking the rules for planatars to respond to the situation.

[Anthrowhale]

Anthrowhale, you must realize that the fighter critics side had difficulty to accept your past rules quotes, so I guess they will also have problems with these.

I do realize. This thread seems doomed to end with disagreements since ignoring rules to reach the conclusion desired is a thing. To the extent that people have mounted reasonable attacks against the fighters, that has provided good information for improving the fighter builds with the Halfling build certainly benefiting from that. But it seems like all the latest tactics are desperation TO moves involving chain-gating Titans, planar bound Efreeti's for infinite free wishes, etc... It's rather boring for me as I'm more interested in tactics that might actually see play in real games where a DM is willing to say 'no'.

One unexplored axis to consider: Are there EL 16- encounters with multiple opponents that can overwhelm a fighter? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is yes but I don't know what that encounter would be off hand. As HD decreases, the stealth advantage of the Fighter becomes more and more overwhelming, but maybe an encounter with multiple Beholders? The AM-eye could be a game-changer. Neither fighter is particularly capable of dealing with a Hellwasp Swarm, but Listen/Spot 10 implies they aren't particularly relevant.

[Lans]

Persistent image only lasts 1 min/ level, so the pit fiend can't have hundreds going at once.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I do realize. This thread seems doomed to end with disagreements since ignoring rules to reach the conclusion desired is a thing. To the extent that people have mounted reasonable attacks against the fighters, that has provided good information for improving the fighter builds with the Halfling build certainly benefiting from that. But it seems like all the latest tactics are desperation TO moves involving chain-gating Titans, planar bound Efreeti's for infinite free wishes, etc... It's rather boring for me as I'm more interested in tactics that might actually see play in real games where a DM is willing to say 'no'.

The thread is not "can a fighter beat blah if the enemies are both stupid and polite" but "can they do it at all?" Also do not sit here and point at others when both Ivanhoe and emeraldstreak have both broken/made up rules to suit their needs (and that was just recently). The only thing presented so far in the fighters favor was your build which I still feel really wants things to go their way (although to be fair you at least put in a solid effort to be self reliant which I appreciate, hence me saying this seems like a good option as part of a team). As to high end tactics: I have seen and done them in battles when it is necessary. They are a part of the game although I can appreciate your distaste for them. The Halfling sniper at least shows that it is definitely not beyond possibility in core.

One unexplored axis to consider: Are there EL 16- encounters with multiple opponents that can overwhelm a fighter? I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is yes but I don't know what that encounter would be off hand. As HD decreases, the stealth advantage of the Fighter becomes more and more overwhelming, but maybe an encounter with multiple Beholders? The AM-eye could be a game-changer. Neither fighter is particularly capable of dealing with a Hellwasp Swarm, but Listen/Spot 10 implies they aren't particularly relevant.

Assuming core? Advanced incorporeal undead seem dangerous since the fighter will need to bring specific tools just to deal with them and being immune to their shtick is not easy for a non-caster in core. Outside of core that depends on how much customization the monsters get. Lifesense and Mind sight make hiding extremely difficult and the new fighter feats are bleh but there are a ton of awesome items to help (which I admit makes it feel less like the fighter is winning and more like WBL is.)

[Eldariel]

Persistent image only lasts 1 min/ level, so the pit fiend can't have hundreds going at once.

Well, at CL 18 assuming it's just casting it casually as it goes onwards, it has 10 rounds per minute and 18 minute duration each so assuming it moves at half speed (when not teleporting), it can have 180 active at any given time - and since Outsiders don't sleep, it can have this up all day every day to all eternity. However, right after teleporting or while doing other stuff it'll lose a portion of its illusions but even 80 is more than good enough to essentially negate anybody without True Seeing. Of course, the Pit Fiend itself has no real reason to ever be visible, since it also has CL 18 Invisibility at will and making Images or Creating Undead does not break it. And spell-likes lack components so it's not revealing its position through their use (verbally or otherwise).

[Kallimakus]

The thread is not "can a fighter beat blah if the enemies are both stupid and polite" but "can they do it at all?" Also do not sit here and point at others when both Ivanhoe and emeraldstreak have both broken/made up rules to suit their needs (and that was just recently). The only thing presented so far in the fighters favor was your build which I still feel really wants things to go their way (although to be fair you at least put in a solid effort to be self reliant which I appreciate, hence me saying this seems like a good option as part of a team). As to high end tactics: I have seen and done them in battles when it is necessary. They are a part of the game although I can appreciate your distaste for them. The Halfling sniper at least shows that it is definitely not beyond possibility in core.



Assuming core? Advanced incorporeal undead seem dangerous since the fighter will need to bring specific tools just to deal with them and being immune to their shtick is not easy for a non-caster in core. Outside of core that depends on how much customization the monsters get. Lifesense and Mind sight make hiding extremely difficult and the new fighter feats are bleh but there are a ton of awesome items to help (which I admit makes it feel less like the fighter is winning and more like WBL is.)

Ah sleep, my eternal enemy. The question is indeed 'can the fighter defeat a Pit Fiend' at all. In my opinion, yes, assuming it uses its standard tactics. Otherwise, it depends on the scenario. If it has a homefield advantage (Persistent images up, bunch of undead), the Pit Fiend likely wins. In an arena situation without preparation, I think that the Fighter side of the argument is stronger, with the Pit Fiend either dying or retreating (more than 50% of the time).

Re: Played like a PC: If it is not controlled by a GM (which it is not, in this scenario), and especially if it isn't subscribing to it's usual tactics (which it should do in over 50% of the cases unless it has reason to deviate from them), I see an argument for saying it is played like a PC. I'm not making that argument, just pointing out it is there.

Re: Scry & die: I do not believe in giving the creature retroactive time. If we have the 'can a Planetar kill the Fighter' argument, the answer is 'yes, but not in a meaningful timeframe.'

Re: Purpose of the thread: The question posed, 'can a fighter defeat a pit fiend in Core Only?' was part of a larger context of 'is a fighter capable of meaningful contribution to a group in Core Only?'. And this conversation is NOT about RAW-space, but in an actual game. Talking about RAW abuse tricks like infinite wealth, infinite loops, wish abuses and so on has no bearing in this discussion as far as I'm concerned. Using any of that is basically saying that you give up. Secondly, any spell that requires GM adjudication should not be used, or should be interpreted by the opposing side of the argument for the sake of fairness.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So the monster sees the Fighter but chooses to retreat? Isn't that a defeat?

- Since it doesn't engage the Fighter, no.

- The hypocrisy is so thick you could cut with a knife; the only response the Fighter seems to have to the Planetar is to run away.

Remember, monsters don't get to live the life of PCs, and those that do become PCs of CR=RHD+LA.

The only thing that makes anything a PC is to be controlled by a player; if the DM controls it, it's an NPC, full stop.

This is a true irrelevant statement. Since you don't have a response, my argument stands.

You really are determined to not understand my points, aren't you? I'll spell it out for you:

Gate isn't a creature; being aware of it is useless. You don't know when anything is coming out of it, or if anything will ever emerge from the Gate. If the Planetar pops out of the Gate, it gets a suprise round because the Fighter didn't know it was there.

The claim is formally false and your diagram is wrong. The starting diagram is:

HHH<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<P<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

Where P is the location of the Planetar and the Sniper near the center of Control winds. As the Sniper walks away we reach this diagram

HHHP<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

Nothing says that the effect has to be centered on the Planetar; a solid surface at one end Control Winds would force the Fighter to retreat over 1,500' to escape Holy Smite and Control Winds.

after 680' of traversal. Critically, this is not 1360' feat of traversal because Control Winds has an AOE with a 40'/level radius = 40*17 = 680. And then after 275' more we reach this diagram.

Diameter is the radius *2; that's 1,360 + 270.

SHHHP<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<HHH

At this point, the Planetar cannot use Holy Smite without exposure to lethal arrow fire.

Only if the area is that big, and if it is, what does the Fighter do? He runs away; because he can't handle a CR 16 monster playing to its strengths.

Ah, you left out the middle step where the Planetar meets the Fighter.

No I didn't, you just weren't paying attention.

Honestly, as long as the Planetar is peaceful, I wouldn't expect the Fighter to kill on sight in a real game.

The Planetar is going to be invisible, and it's going to leave as soon as it spots the Fighter.

But since we seem to be operating under the assumption that both opponents are aware of each other and lethally minded the Planetar may indeed die here.

I don't recall the Fighter knowing about the Planetar.

Yeah, I don't believe that. The Mummy's fear aura can and occasionally does paralyze the Pit Fiend. Nothing in the rules prevents this. (The Fighter is immune on account of it being a paralysis effect and hence countered by Freedom of Movement.)

- Unless the Pit Fiend saves, then it can't be effected for 24 hours.

- Unless the Pit Fiend doesn't stand within 30', then it isn't affected.

I repeat; if you don't stop ignoring/distorting my points, I will not respond to your posts. Stop doing that, it's rude and makes you look bad.

[Rhyltran]

Gate isn't a creature; being aware of it is useless. You don't know when anything is coming out of it, or if anything will ever emerge from the Gate. If the Planetar pops out of the Gate, it gets a suprise round because the Fighter didn't know it was there.[/B]

By definition you aren't surprised if you know that something is coming from a certain direction and you're armed, poised, and ready for that thing to pop out. Going by this every military ever, including SWAT, are always caught by surprise when setting up in a hallway waiting for an enemy to make their move despite knowing where the enemy is going to be coming from.

If the gate is capable of being spotted, and the fighter has his bow and arrow at hand, drawn, and is aiming at the gate by definition he isn't going to be surprised when the enemy steps through. He may not know what the enemy is but that is irrelevant. Enemy steps through, initiative is rolled, and the combat begins. It's no different if the player said to the DM "The moment I see any movement from the gate I'm going to fire." how can that be a surprise?

Now if the planetar is invisible that's one thing but it isn't a surprise round otherwise. The argument "You don't know when it's coming or if it'll ever come" is irrelevant. Unless the planetar reveals itself after the Fighter decides to let his guard down because he's given up about anything coming through. Up until that point.. he's armed and ready for action.

[Kallimakus]

The only thing that makes anything a PC is to be controlled by a player; if the DM controls it, it's an NPC, full stop.

If the DM controls it, it uses printed tactics unless it knows better, which it doesn't. In my opinion anyway, since this is a hypothetical DM (not me, and not you). Since that's what the rules say. And the tactic is, as pointed out, reasonably good.

You really are determined to not understand my points, aren't you? I'll spell it out for you:

Gate isn't a creature; being aware of it is useless. You don't know when anything is coming out of it, or if anything will ever emerge from the Gate. If the Planetar pops out of the Gate, it gets a suprise round because the Fighter didn't know it was there.

The gate is not a creature, but you must take a standard action to concentrate to keep it open. So even going by your (wrong) interpretation of how surprise works, the Planetar will need to concentrate on its surprise round. The fact that the Gate appears would mean that the fighter has weapons drawn, and potentially whatever True Seeing/whatever up. Surprise round does not insert an extra round into combat. It is an extra round that occurs before combat.

EDIT: The way I see it, there are three legal ways for this to occur:
1) Surprise when the Planetar initiates combat: It uses the surprise round to cast Gate, 5ft steps through, and regular rounds begin after.
2) Surprise after casting Gate
a) The Planetar takes a Standard action to concentrate on the Gate, 5ft steps through. Normal rounds continue
b) Planetar does not take a Standard action to concentrate on the gate, which closes, stranding the Planetar on a different plane. Try again later?

Nothing says that the effect has to be centered on the Planetar; a solid surface at one end Control Winds would force the Fighter to retreat over 1,500' to escape Holy Smite and Control Winds.

If you place most of the effect to one side, the fighter will move to the other. In order to most inconvenience the fighter, you want to centre it on him. Any other position results in a shorter distance out of it. Hence, the greatest distance the fighter ever needs to move is radius, not diameter (unless the space is very odd and/or the fighter literally has his back against a 1000ft long wall)

Only if the area is that big, and if it is, what does the Fighter do? He runs away; because he can't handle a CR 16 monster playing to its strengths.

He does not abandon combat, and is free to continue his journey

The Planetar is going to be invisible, and it's going to leave as soon as it spots the Fighter.

Does it know what the fighter looks like? What are the odds of it picking the wrong creature?

I don't recall the Fighter knowing about the Planetar.

He will once the creature gets close enough for a good look, if he has See invisibility or just a lucky spot.

- Unless the Pit Fiend saves, then it can't be effected for 24 hours.

By that mummy. And how many were you proposing again?

- Unless the Pit Fiend doesn't stand within 30', then it isn't affected.

Since it can create them from further away, it can indeed avoid it. The mummies are still under no obligation to follow the Pit Fiend or obey it. True, them behaving according to their own nature will generally work for the Pit Fiend, but it is a flaw regardless. Assuming they do whatever is convenient for the Pit Fiend is Fiat.

I repeat; if you don't stop ignoring/distorting my points, I will not respond to your posts. Stop doing that, it's rude and makes you look bad.

You ignore theirs or misunderstand them just fine, I think?

[ColorBlindNinja]

By definition you aren't surprised if you know that something is coming from a certain direction and you're armed, poised, and ready for that thing to pop out.

No, the Planetar is taking a free action to step through the Gate. You also don't know when something is emerging from the Gate, or if anything will pop out at all.

Going by this every military ever, including SWAT, are always caught by surprise when setting up in a hallway waiting for an enemy to make their move despite knowing where the enemy is going to be coming from.

D&D != Real Life.

If the gate is capable of being spotted, and the fighter has his bow and arrow at hand, drawn, and is aiming at the gate by definition he isn't going to be surprised when the enemy steps through.

Yes he is, because the Fighter isn't given a chance to react before the Planetar steps though the Gate. This also isn't how the rules work.

He may not know what the enemy is but that is irrelevant. Enemy steps through, initiative is rolled, and the combat begins. It's no different if the player said to the DM "The moment I see any movement from the gate I'm going to fire." how can that be a surprise?

Because the Fighter doesn't know what a Gate is? Because spotting the Gate isn't the same thing as being aware of the Planetar?

Now if the planetar is invisible that's one thing but it isn't a surprise round otherwise.

Which the Planetar can easily do.

The argument "You don't know when it's coming or if it'll ever come" is irrelevant. Unless the planetar reveals itself after the Fighter decides to let his guard down because he's given up about anything coming through. Up until that point.. he's armed and ready for action.

This isn't how the rules work; the Fighter doesn't know what Gate is, he can't do anything (he doesn't get a turn) until the Planetar appears, and thus, is surprised.

[Rhyltran]

No, the Planetar is taking a free action to step through the Gate. You also don't know when something is emerging from the Gate, or if anything will pop out at all.

That's not how a surprise round works. He doesn't know when something is emerging but he's ready for when it does. As long as he's waiting for something to emerge he's not going to be surprised.

D&D != Real Life.

Regardless the analogy still works.

Yes he is, because the Fighter isn't given a chance to react before the Planetar steps though the Gate. This also isn't how the rules work.

No, he doesn't. He gets to react after initiative is rolled. In which case the Planetar is dead because it was stupid enough to gate in range of a character who can kill it in a single full round action.

Because the Fighter doesn't know what a Gate is? Because spotting the Gate isn't the same thing as being aware of the Planetar?

The fighter is level 20. By now he probably knows what a gate is. He may not know what version of gate it is and may not know everything that can come out of a gate but he's well aware of the fact that there's essentially a portal above him and there's very likely something coming through. You get on people for assuming monsters are stupid. You don't get to assume the Fighter is stupid.

Which the Planetar can easily do.

Sure. The Fighter may or may not have true seeing up as well by the time it steps out. Depending on what he has on him, how long it takes the Planetar to leave, etc.

This isn't how the rules work; the Fighter doesn't know what Gate is, he can't do anything (he doesn't get a turn) until the Planetar appears, and thus, is surprised.

The Fighter does know what gate is because he isn't an idiot. Going by the same logic the Planetar doesn't realize the Fighter is powerful or important. He doesn't know the Fighter. In fact, going by this logic, and if you want to go the lack of any foreknowledge whatsoever how does the Planetar discern the location of someone he doesn't even know exists? In which case both combatants completely pass each other by unless they walk in on a card gaming session in the woods.

Regardless the Planetar has chosen a poor mode of combat and dies due to his terrible gate strategy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the DM controls it, it uses printed tactics unless it knows better, which it doesn't. In my opinion anyway, since this is a hypothetical DM (not me, and not you). Since that's what the rules say. And the tactic is, as pointed out, reasonably good.

The Planetar will know better, it's not stupid, and the default tactics suck.

The gate is not a creature, but you must take a standard action to concentrate to keep it open. So even going by your (wrong) interpretation of how surprise works, the Planetar will need to concentrate on its surprise round. The fact that the Gate appears would mean that the fighter has weapons drawn, and potentially whatever True Seeing/whatever up. Surprise round does not insert an extra round into combat. It is an extra round that occurs before combat.

The Planetar takes a 5-foot step as soon as the Gate opens and steps through it; it gets a surprise round.

If you place most of the effect to one side, the fighter will move to the other.

Thus, he will have to move 1,500+ feet to get out of range of both spells.

In order to most inconvenience the fighter, you want to centre it on him. Any other position results in a shorter distance out of it. Hence, the greatest distance the fighter ever needs to move is radius, not diameter (unless the space is very odd and/or the fighter literally has his back against a 1000ft long wall)

It's also possible the Fighter is boxed in.

He does not abandon combat, and is free to continue his journey

Of course he does, that's the definition of running away.

Does it know what the fighter looks like? What are the odds of it picking the wrong creature?

Look, either the Planetar knows about the Fighter and is hunting him down, or the Fighter is trying to assassinate the Pit Fiend; pick one already.

He will once the creature gets close enough for a good look, if he has See invisibility or just a lucky spot.

A lucky spot check wouldn't tell him anything except an invisible creature is near by.

By that mummy. And how many were you proposing again? Since it can create them from further away, it can indeed avoid it.

I hadn't decided on an exact number, but the Pit Fiend hardly needs to stand close to all his minions.

The mummies are still under no obligation to follow the Pit Fiend or obey it. True, them behaving according to their own nature will generally work for the Pit Fiend, but it is a flaw regardless. Assuming they do whatever is convenient for the Pit Fiend is Fiat.

The Pit Fiend has Diplomacy.

You ignore theirs or misunderstand them just fine, I think?

If I got something wrong about someone else's position, they can feel free to correct me.

That's not how a surprise round works. He doesn't know when something is emerging but he's ready for when it does. As long as he's waiting for something to emerge he's not going to be surprised.

No, the Fighter is aware of Gate (assuming he knows what it is) not the Planetar.

Regardless the analogy still works.

No it doesn't.

No, he doesn't. He gets to react after initiative is rolled. In which case the Planetar is dead because it was stupid enough to gate in range of a character who can kill it in a single full round action.

After Initative is rolled, 300 MPH winds are raging and the Fighter can't fight in melee thanks to Antilife Shell.

The fighter is level 20. By now he probably knows what a gate is.

Not unless he has ranks in Spellcraft.

He may not know what version of gate it is and may not know everything that can come out of a gate but he's well aware of the fact that there's essentially a portal above him and there's very likely something coming through.

No he isn't and it doesn't matter, he is unaware of the Planetar prior to it stepping through the Gate.

You get on people for assuming monsters are stupid. You don't get to assume the Fighter is stupid.

- The Fighter doesn't get to metagame.

- What's his INT score again?

Sure. The Fighter may of may not have true seeing up as well by the time it steps out. Depending on what he has on him, how long it takes the Planetar to leave, etc.

The Fighter won't have True Seeing up, because his Gem of Seeing will run out if he uses it all the time.

The Fighter does know what gate is because he isn't an idiot.

Spellcraft, or go home.

Going by the same logic the Planetar doesn't realize the Fighter is powerful or important.

If the Planetar is going after the Fighter, it's not going to underestimate him.

He doesn't know the Fighter.

Contact Other Planes says otherwise.

In fact, going by this logic, and if you want to go the lack of any foreknowledge whatsoever how does the Planetar discern the location of someone he doesn't even know exists? In which case both combatants completely pass each other by unless they walk in on a card gaming session in the woods.

For this scenario to work, someone has to have foreknowledge of the other; who is it, the Fighter or the Planetar?

Regardless the Planetar has chosen a poor mode of combat and dies due to his terrible gate strategy.

The Planetar wins because either the Fighter gets Holy Smat to death, or he runs away because his class sucks.

[Anthrowhale]

Assuming core? Advanced incorporeal undead seem dangerous since the fighter will need to bring specific tools just to deal with them and being immune to their shtick is not easy for a non-caster in core.

Only an Advanced Dread Wraith seems like a real foe here as nothing else advances far. A 32HD Dread Wraith would be CR 15 with 208 hp, Initiative+13, Spot/Listen of 41 and Hide of 40, Attack bonus of 24 (incorporeal touch), and a DC 35 Fort Save or 1d8 Constitution Drain. That's enough to be a real threat---there is a real chance it would do some Con drain before dieing.

[Rhyltran]

The Planetar will know better, it's not stupid, and the default tactics suck.

This is debatable given the laughable gate strategy proposed. There's been some good planetar tactics. The "Surprise the fighter via gate trick" is not one of them.

No, the Fighter is aware of Gate (assuming he knows what it is) not the Planetar.

No, he's aware of the direction an enemy is coming from and is lying in wait of said enemy. The Planetar thinks he's ambushing the Fighter but he's walking into a prepared situation. This is a neutral confrontation. Initiative is rolled normally and it dies. Going by your logic, again, waiting for enemies from a position of strength and if the enemies likewise know where you are the other party in the defensible position are going to get surprised despite knowing exactly where their opponents are coming from. This is laughable.

No it doesn't.

It is unless characters in D&D are so brain dead that all conventional military tactical knowledge is invalid. If characters, in universe, are that stupid suddenly it makes complete sense why despite their magical prowess the planetar would prefer to use a great sword in combat. In which case it also dies.

After Initative is rolled, 300 MPH winds are raging and the Fighter can't fight in melee thanks to Antilife Shell.

After initiative is rolled the Fighter goes first because the Planetar wasted it's time going through a gate and walking into a prepared fighter. The Planetar is dead and doesn't cast anything.

Not unless he has ranks in Spellcraft.

Or the player has seen it before because his fighter is level 20 and such spells have been common for a long time at this point. Again, identifying what portal or what gate might be beyond the fighter but it tdoesn't take a rocket scientist to know "Portals usually lead to other places and creatures use portals to ambush and snack on yummy fighters."

No he isn't and it doesn't matter, he is unaware of the Planetar prior to it stepping through the Gate.

He's ready for a creature to step through the gate. Maybe not the planetar itself but a creature nonetheless. He knows something is coming through and is prepared to take action. The planetar dies a glorious albeit very depressing death.

- The Fighter doesn't get to metagame.

- What's his INT score again?

- The planetar does?

- Probably average or slightly above average. Guess what? Average people aren't as dumb as you think they are especially when they're as experienced as a level 20 fighter.

The Fighter won't have True Seeing up, because his Gem of Seeing will run out if he uses it all the time.

Sure but we're not talking all the time. There's a very obvious portal up.

Spellcraft, or go home.

Spellcraft isn't needed. A portal is a portal. Especially in high magical settings like D&D where even the layman knows what a portal is. Again, he doesn't know it's a Gate or what version of Gate and therefore doesn't know the level of the creature coming through but the fighter has no reason not to assume, given his career, and how many monsters he's fought up until this point to not assume something is stepping through.

Better tactics or try harder.

If the Planetar is going after the Fighter, it's not going to underestimate him.

No it prefers using suicidal strategies like gating into a waiting fighter who can end him in a FRA.

Contact Other Planes says otherwise.

Using meta game knowledge in favor of the planetar.

For this scenario to work, someone has to have foreknowledge of the other; who is it, the Fighter or the Planetar?

Out of fairness you would assume it'd be mutual.

The Planetar wins because either the Fighter gets Holy Smat to death, or he runs away because his class sucks.

Or the fighter laughs at the planetar's terrible tactics?

[Kallimakus]

The Planetar will know better, it's not stupid, and the default tactics suck.

Quite the contrary. Most things in the world are so outclassed by it that the default tactics work just fine. Even if the ability is at will, it does not necessarily imply no effort. The tactics and abilities attempt (and fail, apparently) to reflect the nature of the creature in question. You choose to ignore this and go by your own judgement, rather than the rules. Do not fault others for not making the same choice. I don't fault you for yours. They are not what a creature with those abilities would do against a powerful opponent. But most of its opponents are not powerful.

The Planetar takes a 5-foot step as soon as the Gate opens and steps through it; it gets a surprise round.

I see no indication that this would be the case. Surprise round is a round in which only some creatures may act, not an extra round inserted into timeline (AFAIK, feel free to quote rules otherwise). I edited my thoughts on this on my earlier post.

Thus, he will have to move 1,500+ feet to get out of range of both spells.

What 'both spells?' As long as the Planetar is not within Control Winds, the Fighter's attack beats the Planetar's (I believe).

Of course he does, that's the definition of running away.

I worded it poorly. He is free to sit out the duration. Running away means abandoning the battle. He runs away and gets to try again, this time against the Planetar that has expended some of its spells. That, or the Planetar runs away to get more. So the encounter might be a dull, hours-long thing, but it is only over when one side abandons the fight. Or we can say that Planetar wins round one, but has to either fight the Fighter again until it can defeat it, or run away.

The Pit Fiend has Diplomacy.

A skill that uses GM adjudication and is therefore out of this discussion, I believe.

After Initative is rolled, 300 MPH winds are raging and the Fighter can't fight in melee thanks to Antilife Shell.

I do not believe this is the case. See my previous post

No he isn't and it doesn't matter, he is unaware of the Planetar prior to it stepping through the Gate.

Which he will either do during or after the surprise round, by my interpretation of Surprise rules.

If the Planetar is going after the Fighter, it's not going to underestimate him.

But why is it going after the fighter? Why does it cast the first Divination/contact other plane/whatever to start learning about this fighter? Because doing that smells of metagaming. In general Divination seems like a metagaming tool to me. You get knowledge IC about stuff you know of only OOC if played like I usually see it suggested. Like here.

Contact Other Planes says otherwise.

Why did the Planetar cast it?

For this scenario to work, someone has to have foreknowledge of the other; who is it, the Fighter or the Planetar?[/QUOTE]

No they don't. A chance encounter is possible as well, or should be, according to the rules. Assumed, in fact, I think?