Page 8 of 52 FirstFirst 12345678910111213141516171833 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 240 of 1532
  1. - Top - End - #211
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    I don't think anyone is, because we all agree that if you aren't spending your standard actions concentrating on detect magic, then you aren't getting "pinged" with knowledge of magical auras. If you stop concentrating, you stop getting information.
    I think Anthrowhale's argument is that Detect Magic isn't concentration anymore, but permanent. Thus, you don't have to concentrate every round to get info with Detect Magic.

  2. - Top - End - #212
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by logic_error View Post
    There is a simple way to resolve this:

    How about Beheld plays a PitFiend. Any other guy voluntarily plays the optimised fighter. Both get same prep time and full idea of each other's capabilities. Just decide on the WBL and the features allowed within the strict rules of Core.
    1) The requirement that the monster has to be a Pit Fiend and definitely will be is like 14 different free gifts to the Fighter. The entire point is that if you built a Schroedinger's fighter who always has the optimal build against the specific enemy he faces, that this already proves the fighter is a problem.

    2) There are still tons of issues that always have to be ironed out, like treasure for the Pit Fiend, or how detect magic (doesn't) work or how sniping works, or the actual cause of the run in and associated battlefield locations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I think Anthrowhale's argument is that Detect Magic isn't concentration anymore, but permanent. Thus, you don't have to concentrate every round to get info with Detect Magic.
    I think his argument makes no sense, because Detect Magic detects magic in an area, and you have to move that area and study the same area for 3 rounds to get the info, and studying that area takes concentration.
    Last edited by Beheld; 2017-06-29 at 11:22 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #213
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    While no one actually uses candles of invocation in real games, only someone who has never tried to buy permanencied spells in real games would ever actually contend that they are fairly plausible. Anyone who has actually tried would have quickly discovered how incredibly worthless they are, since they get auto dispelled by anything even vaguely approaching level appropriate.
    I've certainly used permanency in real games. It an expendable of unclear duration, and a 3K gp expendable is acceptable at this level. In this sense it's something like a potion, only better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Actually, it only gives cover if a line from your square passes through an object that provides cover. So you know, if the mummies don't line up in a nice long line, and the Pit Fiend is in the air, then you probably don't have cover with respect to all of them from many locations.
    I think this is your way of saying "Yes, I was wrong about the 10' requirement". You are also wrong about the line as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Or you know, you could quote the actual rules...
    I quoted from the 4th sentence of hide. The rules for sniping do not say that you are revealed---they say that you need to make another hide check with a -20 penalty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Except that you declare studying to be a move action for no reason, this has always been my point.
    That is not what you said. What you said is:
    Quote Originally Posted by beheld
    ...unless you use your standard action to detect magic every round of your life, you don't get "pinged"...
    which you are now admitting was wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by beheld
    But while we are on the subject, you actually can't Permanency Detect Magic on your fighter at all. It's literally against the rules.
    I assume you missed the explanation "(via Ring of Spell Storing)". A ring of spell storing allows a fighter to cast permanency. It's a quite standard core item.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2017-06-29 at 11:21 AM.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.

  4. - Top - End - #214
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post

    Also, magic items are expensive; are you planning on using them throughout your whole career?
    A common misconception among people who don't do PvE tests. Expenses are dwarfed by treasure gained. That's why earlier I posited that a meaningful test for lvl 20 UMD PC would be defeating one Pit Fiend per day for an extended period of time; not simply one poor fiend clobbered by lvl 20 wealth. But even so, a pit fiend is worth so much UMD ought to defeat it sustainably.

    Why be a Fighter then? Why not be a Rogue, or a Bard, or a Commoner?
    Now that's why I've been trying to focus the discussion on the Fighter's features since page one, but for some reason newcomers keep reframing the question into a larger problem.

  5. - Top - End - #215
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I've certainly used permanency in real games. It an expendable of unclear duration, and a 3K gp expendable is acceptable at this level. In this sense it's something like a potion, only better.
    I think this is your way of saying "Yes, I was wrong about the 10' requirement". You are also wrong about the line as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    That is not what you said. What you said is: which you are now admitting was wrong.
    Except that is what I said. You do not get pinged when you move within 60ft of magic unless you are concentrating every round. If you aren't concentrating, you don't get pinged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I assume you missed the explanation "(via Ring of Spell Storing)". A ring of spell storing allows a fighter to cast permanency. It's a quite standard core item.
    Did you summon a Genie to wish for the ring of spell storing that you gave your fighter for free without cost?
    Last edited by Beheld; 2017-06-29 at 11:33 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #216
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Silent(Morgan) Hill, CA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    My 2 sense on permanent detect magic in this derailed thread, after reading detect magic, permanency, and the persistent spell metamagic.

    By strict RAW It removes the need to concentrate on the spell. Since concentration is only listed in the spell duration, and no where in the context of how the spell works, once permanent you are always "studying" whatever is in the cone in front of you.

    Also, I skipped like 3 pages, is there a reason why normal wbl is not given to the fighter since every character is considered to have wbl to make them useful against correct challenge rating encounters?

  7. - Top - End - #217
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosi View Post

    But even if you meant EL, you're still wrong, because that doesn't change for party level. EL does sometimes change (for example, fighting undead without a Cleric is a higher EL encounter per the DMG). If a 1st level party fights a CR 5 monster, that's not a different EL than the same party fighting it at 10th level, the EL is just in a different position relative to the PCs and the challenge gives more XP (and is considered more difficult).
    So, if the pit fiend creates undead the encounter level is raised as the party does not include a cleric, so we should be using a level 21 fighter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    1) The requirement that the monster has to be a Pit Fiend and definitely will be is like 14 different free gifts to the Fighter. The entire point is that if you built a Schroedinger's fighter who always has the optimal build against the specific enemy he faces, that this already proves the fighter is a problem.
    Is any one really arguing whether the fighter is weak, problematic, or underpowered? I mean this entire thread is about whether a core fighter can beat a pit fiend with basically a life time of for knowledge. I mean we are basically arguing whether the fighter passes with a 59.6% grade


    2) There are still tons of issues that always have to be ironed out, like treasure for the Pit Fiend, or how detect magic (doesn't) work or how sniping works, or the actual cause of the run in and associated battlefield locations.
    also true, we could run both scenarios, or just postulate of what happens if X is ruled G way.

  8. - Top - End - #218
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Menzath View Post
    Also, I skipped like 3 pages, is there a reason why normal wbl is not given to the fighter since every character is considered to have wbl to make them useful against correct challenge rating encounters?
    I don't know why the Fighter gets more than WBL either. But apparently the fighter player decided they need more than WBL.

  9. - Top - End - #219
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2013

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    1) The requirement that the monster has to be a Pit Fiend and definitely will be is like 14 different free gifts to the Fighter. The entire point is that if you built a Schroedinger's fighter who always has the optimal build against the specific enemy he faces, that this already proves the fighter is a problem.

    2) There are still tons of issues that always have to be ironed out, like treasure for the Pit Fiend, or how detect magic (doesn't) work or how sniping works, or the actual cause of the run in and associated battlefield locations.
    I am sure that a competent player (which rules me out) with the right treasure can still do this. ANnyone else?

  10. - Top - End - #220
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    A common misconception among people who don't do PvE tests. Expenses are dwarfed by treasure gained. That's why earlier I posited that a meaningful test for lvl 20 UMD PC would be defeating one Pit Fiend per day for an extended period of time; not simply one poor fiend clobbered by lvl 20 wealth. But even so, a pit fiend is worth so much UMD ought to defeat it sustainably.
    Can the Fighter really afford to burn magic items in every encounter?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Now that's why I've been trying to focus the discussion on the Fighter's features since page one, but for some reason newcomers keep reframing the question into a larger problem.
    What does the Fighter have (besides higher BAB) that a Rogue with Fighter bonus feats doesn't?

  11. - Top - End - #221
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DEMON's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    What does the Fighter have (besides higher BAB) that a Rogue with Fighter bonus feats doesn't?
    Hmm...High For save and Handle Animal and Ride for class skills?
    Fantabulous Duskblade avatar by linklele, for which I am eternally grateful.
    Previous avatars composed by Nathan, Ivius and Threeshades, for what I am eternally grateful, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  12. - Top - End - #222
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2011

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by DEMON View Post
    Hmm...High For save and Handle Animal and Ride for class skills?
    Both of which easily compensated for by more efficient use of wealth through class skill UMD, more skill points, and good old fashioned using the freed up cash for any leftover bonuses.
    Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
    Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
    Thread wins: 2

  13. - Top - End - #223
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by DEMON View Post
    Hmm...High For save and Handle Animal and Ride for class skills?
    The Fort save is nice, Handle Animal could be useful, but why would a Rogue care about Ride?

  14. - Top - End - #224
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Can the Fighter really afford to burn magic items in every encounter?
    It depends what your goals are and how efficiently you burn them. Truthfully, a fighter could go very far by buying a +30 UMD item and a Staff of Holy Word and Word of Choas and being Chaotic Good. You can kill like, mostly everything you would ever fight with that just emulating a stupidly high caster level.

    And then you could buy a new staff when you run out.

    On the other hand, anyone spending 3k on "better potion" (permancied spell) that might last you a day is probably going to run out of money really quick.

    People who carry around lots of potions and oils basically never use them, because they run into the problem where level appropriate enemies have both defenders advantage and better detection systems than PCs.

  15. - Top - End - #225
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    It depends what your goals are and how efficiently you burn them. Truthfully, a fighter could go very far by buying a +30 UMD item and a Staff of Holy Word and Word of Choas and being Chaotic Good. You can kill like, mostly everything you would ever fight with that just emulating a stupidly high caster level.
    We're allowing custom items in this discussion?

    Also, how would the Fighter achieve a high caster level with UMD? I saw nothing in the skill description to indicate that, and don't staffs have a default caster level if yours isn't higher?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    And then you could buy a new staff when you run out.
    Staves are pretty expensive. Is this Fighter also buying the other types of magic gear like save/stat boosts, flight, ect.?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    On the other hand, anyone spending 3k on "better potion" (permancied spell) that might last you a day is probably going to run out of money really quick.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    People who carry around lots of potions and oils basically never use them,
    I don't think they're cost effective, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    because they run into the problem where level appropriate enemies have both defenders advantage and better detection systems than PCs.
    Divination spells are really important at high levels, and non-casters can replicate them easily.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-06-29 at 02:05 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #226
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DEMON's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ryu View Post
    Both of which easily compensated for by more efficient use of wealth through class skill UMD, more skill points, and good old fashioned using the freed up cash for any leftover bonuses.
    They do? I wouldn't have thought so myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    The Fort save is nice, Handle Animal could be useful, but why would a Rogue care about Ride?
    Never did I say a Rogue would care about any of this (though the Fort save is indeed nice). I was just answering your question without any regards to the bigger picture. Oh right, there's also more hit points I forgot to mention in my previous post...

    Really, I don't have a stake in this argument, it's obvious not all classes were created equal (and they should have been), but the discrepancies are less visible in games where the players lack the knowledge and system mastery the long-term enthusiasts (such as many people on these forums), do.
    Fantabulous Duskblade avatar by linklele, for which I am eternally grateful.
    Previous avatars composed by Nathan, Ivius and Threeshades, for what I am eternally grateful, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Cookie cutter racial cheese aside, we should probably keep an eye on the whole "Dwarf only" bit of the OP. But hey, that's just me. Everyone feel free to throw out more op tricks that are 100% topic irrelevant. :P

  17. - Top - End - #227
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Divination spells are really important at high levels, and non-casters can replicate them easily.
    1) umd lets you emulate class feature, cleric with cl 35 is a class feature of a level 35 cleric.

    2) a staff with different spells in it is no more a custom item than a wand with different spells, and much less so than a hand of glory with wisdom and con bonuses.

    3) people say that they can use divination spells really well, but I literally gave my pcs a sword that casts commune or speak with dead once a day, and they regularly trick themselves into wrong expectations or just blow the days questions accomplishing nothing.

    I've never had anyone actually use divinations that effectively when ive challenged them to in convos like this either. They certainly aren't worthless, but in practice they are substantially overblown.

  18. - Top - End - #228
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    1) umd lets you emulate class feature, cleric with cl 35 is a class feature of a level 35 cleric.
    Wow. I'll have to add that one to my personal list of cheesy tricks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    2) a staff with different spells in it is no more a custom item than a wand with different spells, and much less so than a hand of glory with wisdom and con bonuses.
    Won't all those magic items add up quickly? Plus, spamming those spells won't work on everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    3) people say that they can use divination spells really well, but I literally gave my pcs a sword that casts commune or speak with dead once a day, and they regularly trick themselves into wrong expectations or just blow the days questions accomplishing nothing.
    I was thinking of spells like Scrying and Discern Location. Spells like Commune take a bit for finesse to use well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    I've never had anyone actually use divinations that effectively when ive challenged them to in convos like this either. They certainly aren't worthless, but in practice they are substantially overblown.
    The potential is certainly there.

    But when we're talking about Fighter UMDing staffs to emulate CL 35 Holy Word/Blasphemy/ect. spells, we left typical play some time ago.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-06-29 at 02:29 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #229
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Can the Fighter really afford to burn magic items in every encounter?
    Yes. The outcomes of all PvE gauntlets, and of all PvP arenas, point to consumables being too cheap for the power (and consequently treasure) derived from them.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    What does the Fighter have (besides higher BAB) that a Rogue with Fighter bonus feats doesn't?
    A Rogue with Fighter feats isn't the one in the PHB. The moment you walk into all 1st party supplements (let alone all 1st&3rd party supplements) the Pit Fiend's odds dwindle.

    Mind you, no one here is attempting to re-tier the Fighter above the Rogue. The discussion is about Fighter v Pit Fiend, and right now is focused on Core without UMD/custom items (which is only one the nine boxes on the table on page 1 of this thread).

  20. - Top - End - #230
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Yes. The outcomes of all PvE gauntlets, and of all PvP arenas, point to consumables being too cheap for the power (and consequently treasure) derived from them.
    I'm not really impressed that the Fighter can win a few battles by throwing money at the problem until it goes away. I was talking about the viability of such tactics in an actual campaign.

    Also, what sort of UMD stratagems did you have planned?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    A Rogue with Fighter feats isn't the one in the PHB. The moment you walk into all 1st party supplements (let alone all 1st&3rd party supplements) the Pit Fiend's odds dwindle.
    I wasn't aware we're talking about Core only. Regardless, dragging 3rd party books into this discussion seems like a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Mind you, no one here is attempting to re-tier the Fighter above the Rogue. The discussion is about Fighter v Pit Fiend, and right now is focused on Core without UMD/custom items (which is only one the nine boxes on the table on page 1 of this thread).
    So, how's the Fighter faring?
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-06-29 at 03:23 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #231
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Yes. The outcomes of all PvE gauntlets, and of all PvP arenas, point to consumables being too cheap for the power (and consequently treasure) derived from them.
    Well I mean, for one shots, consumables are supposed to cost 10 times as much. So if we were really using the rules that are presented, presumably the fighter's consumable budget of 83.89k gold would therefore be multiplied by 10 and come out to 838.9k gp worth of consumables.... Or you know, more than WBL all on it's own.

  22. - Top - End - #232
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Well I mean, for one shots, consumables are supposed to cost 10 times as much. So if we were really using the rules that are presented, presumably the fighter's consumable budget of 83.89k gold would therefore be multiplied by 10 and come out to 838.9k gp worth of consumables.... Or you know, more than WBL all on it's own.
    Maybe some dips into Incarnate or Totemist would help replicate some magic gear. That, or taking Shape Soulmeld.

  23. - Top - End - #233
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I'm not really impressed that the Fighter can win a few battles by throwing money at the problem until it goes away.
    Take a look at the treasure table in the DMG, and then at the cost of a scroll of Shapechange.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I was talking about the viability of such tactics in an actual campaign.
    Actual campaigns depend on the tastes of actual DMs (yes I've seen Fighters kill Pit Fiends in campaigns). PvE arguments however depend on the RAW, and even discounting UMD ,the Core Fighter gets ring of spellstoring and spellcasting services that, say, let him PAO himself.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Also, what sort of UMD stratagems did you have planned?
    For me, when someone doesn't understand the power of consumables (and the major gateways to it like UMD), that's a flag that person is a relative newbie to the system. I'm sure there's plenty of information online even with minmax down.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I wasn't aware we're talking about Core only. Regardless, dragging 3rd party books into this discussion seems like a bad idea.
    Certainly a bad idea for the Pit Fiend. Even within 1st party only the Fighter gets so many things: better battlefield control, much higher damage, Ikea Tarrasque options - and that's playing nice. Not nice would be his own personal armies of minions, dramatically expanded caster services exploits, all kinds of races/templates, and really heaven know's what else - and that's still without UMD/custom items.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    So, how's the Fighter faring?
    Are you convinced the non-UMD Core Fighter wins against the Pit Fiend? If not, the case isn't good enough yet.

  24. - Top - End - #234
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Take a look at the treasure table in the DMG, and then at the cost of a scroll of Shapechange.
    You might have excess cash to burn at +17, but your pockets are a lot more shallow at level 1.

    Plus scrolls of Shapechange eat into your budget for other important magic items.

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Actual campaigns depend on the tastes of actual DMs (yes I've seen Fighters kill Pit Fiends in campaigns). PvE arguments however depend on the RAW, and even discounting UMD ,the Core Fighter gets ring of spellstoring and spellcasting services that, say, let him PAO himself.
    I was talking about WBL. How many times can a Fighter pay casters to give him spells before he runs out of cash?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    For me, when someone doesn't understand the power of consumables (and the major gateways to it like UMD), that's a flag that person is a relative newbie to the system. I'm sure there's plenty of information online even with minmax down.
    That tells me nothing about how you think the UMD Fighter can win.

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Certainly a bad idea for the Pit Fiend. Even within 1st party only the Fighter gets so many things: better battlefield control, much higher damage, Ikea Tarrasque options - and that's playing nice. Not nice would be his own personal armies of minions, dramatically expanded caster services exploits, all kinds of races/templates, and really heaven know's what else - and that's still without UMD/custom items.
    So, what's to stop the Pit Fiend from starting an infinite Wish loop? Or any number of other optimized tactics it could be using?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Are you convinced the non-UMD Core Fighter wins against the Pit Fiend? If not, the case isn't good enough yet.
    What sort of strategy are we talking about? How much damage can the Core Fighter deal and how is he doing it?

  25. - Top - End - #235
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    I was talking about WBL. How many times can a Fighter pay casters to give him spells before he runs out of cash?
    Infinite amounts, as he's killing monsters and looting their treasure in-between.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    That tells me nothing about how you think the UMD Fighter can win.
    What it should be telling you is you lack basic knowledge in critical areas of the system. I'm not in the habit of writing UMD bibles on page 8 of random threats, so Google for yourself, or don't, it's all the same to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    So, what's to stop the Pit Fiend from starting an infinite Wish loop? Or any number of other optimized tactics it could be using?
    Won't be the Pit Fiend from the MM.

  26. - Top - End - #236
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Infinite amounts, as he's killing monsters and looting their treasure in-between.
    Without more details, I'm very skeptical of that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    What it should be telling you is you lack basic knowledge in critical areas of the system. I'm not in the habit of writing UMD bibles on page 8 of random threats, so Google for yourself, or don't, it's all the same to me.
    I'm appreciate if you would cease pontificating on my knowledge of 3.5.

    If you won't tell me how you're killing the Pit Fiend, why should I believe you?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    Won't be the Pit Fiend from the MM.
    Yes it is, it's just using its Wish SLA intelligently.
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-06-29 at 04:30 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #237
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    If you won't tell me how you're killing the Pit Fiend, why should I believe you?
    And why should I believe you the Pit Fiend can kill the Fighter?



    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Yes it is, it's just using its Wish SLA intelligently.
    OK, let take this non-MM Pit Fiend for a walk vs a 20th lvl PC.

    The Pit Fiend's first move would be start the wish chain. However, any PC that gets more than 1 Wish per year (in any way - includes at least 6/9 boxes in the Fighter table) will Wish for the Pit Fiend's wish to fail. These PCs will either

    - almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
    - outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

    After that, they'll have a Wish renewal before the Pit Fiend and will complete the wish chain first. So for more than 1 Wish/year Pit Fiend got crushed.

    For those with less than 1 Wish/year - say non-caster, non-UMD Pazuzu-fans, it's better to wish for the chain immediately. And again:

    - almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
    - outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

    and ultimately complete the chain faster, even by being first in the same turn, and still destroy the Pit Fiend.

  28. - Top - End - #238
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    And why should I believe you the Pit Fiend can kill the Fighter?
    Because I never claimed that.


    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    OK, let take this non-MM Pit Fiend for a walk vs a 20th lvl PC.

    The Pit Fiend's first move would be start the wish chain. However, any PC that gets more than 1 Wish per year (in any way - includes at least 6/9 boxes in the Fighter table) will Wish for the Pit Fiend's wish to fail.
    That is not a safe use of Wish. Also, why wouldn't the Pit Fiend have started the Wish loop long ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    These PCs will either

    - almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
    - outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency
    If this non-MM Pit Fiend is abusing Wish, why wouldn't it have Contingencies and high initiative bonuses?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    After that, they'll have a Wish renewal before the Pit Fiend and will complete the wish chain first. So for more than 1 Wish/year Pit Fiend got crushed.
    I repeat, why would the Pit Fiend wait to start the Wish loop until combat begun?

    Quote Originally Posted by emeraldstreak View Post
    For those with less than 1 Wish/year - say non-caster, non-UMD Pazuzu-fans, it's better to wish for the chain immediately. And again:

    - almost certainly act before the Fiend due to their insanely better options to improve initiative
    - outright act before the Fiend due the likes of Craft Contingency

    and ultimately complete the chain faster, even by being first in the same turn, and still destroy the Pit Fiend.
    Wish loop abuse by both sides makes this contest rather pointless, as neither side will be able to hurt the other.

    You never posted any tactics for the Fighter, UMD or no. Why should I believe that the Fighter beats the Pit Fiend, again?
    Last edited by ColorBlindNinja; 2017-06-29 at 04:52 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #239
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Berlin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by ColorBlindNinja View Post
    Without more details, I'm very skeptical of that claim.
    IŽll give you an PF answer, but donŽt fret, the item creation rules and their pricing didn't change between editions (youŽd get the same result using the MiC).
    Our basic archery Fighter needs only use 4 basic wands with spells weŽd get from either the Paladin, Antipaladin or Ranger list, so nothing fancy - IŽm sure youŽll find equivalent spells in 3,5 that will prove to be more powerful, as usual..
    - Saddle Surge
    - Celestial/Infernal Healing, Greater
    - Named Bulled, Greater
    - Litany of Righteousness

    That 2x 4th and 2x 2nd, an initial investment of 72K for fully charged wands with 40 charges. Using this a pre-combat buffs, thisŽll cost us 1,8K in charges to gain a whopping 600 DPR for a first strike.
    Compare that to the 60K+ loot for the Pit Fiend.

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Virgo Supercluster
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    IŽll give you an PF answer, but donŽt fret, the item creation rules and their pricing didn't change between editions (youŽd get the same result using the MiC).
    Crafting doesn't cost XP in PF, but that's probably not what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    Our basic archery Fighter needs only use 4 basic wands with spells weŽd get from either the Paladin, Antipaladin or Ranger list, so nothing fancy - IŽm sure youŽll find equivalent spells in 3,5 that will prove to be more powerful, as usual..
    - Saddle Surge
    - Celestial/Infernal Healing, Greater
    - Named Bulled, Greater
    - Litany of Righteousness

    That 2x 4th and 2x 2nd, an initial investment of 72K for fully charged wands with 40 charges. Using this a pre-combat buffs, thisŽll cost us 1,8K in charges to gain a whopping 600 DPR for a first strike.
    Compare that to the 60K+ loot for the Pit Fiend.
    As far as I can tell, none of those spells are in 3.5.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •