Request: A fix for Scout for Fighter

[Auramis]

Yes, I know, the fighter already has a martial archetype called Scout, but it was one of the earlier UAs WotC put out, and it feels very dated now, especially with the updates to both ranger and the rogue archetype for scout... but I still like being able to be a wilderness based fighter. Having said that... what are the board's thought's? Should the FScout be updated to fit the current UA theme better? Should I just play a spell-less ranger as a strength user?

I would prefer the former, if possible. The ranger is awesome... but so much of it is based off of stealth, and I don't want that.

[Secret Wizard]

Hey there!

I was pondering about this myself some time ago, and I came to the following conclusions:

1. If you want a medium armor wilderness dude, you need to look at the Barbarian, because the Fighter doesn't have anything that motivates it to go with medium armor. If you made an archetype that works well with medium or light armor in exchange for more skills... people are just going to go with light armor because of the additional emphasis on mental stats (given more skills).

2. If a Scout archetype were to work well... it would need a NATURAL incentive to invest in Strength... and a natural incentive to go with medium armor. Sadly for you, the natural incentive for medium armor, over heavy, is the possibility of not sucking at stealth.

So with this in mind I created this archetype. It's not necessarily scoutish, but I liked it:

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/S1tczxpoe

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, it still feels like a mighty solid option. A huge chunk of new skill proficiencies, a solid skill boosting option,two excellent combat maneuvers-- a to-hit bonus and possibly the best reaction defense in the game (+1d8 AC averages out to 4.5, about as good as Shield and you get Resistance if that's not enough)-- and a ribbon? On top of the Fighter's basic chassis, which is arguably the strongest in the game? You're looking mighty good there, son. You could, I guess, update Natural Explorer to match the Revised Ranger? That would probably be appropriate, and a nice little power bump.

[Auramis]

Hey there!

I was pondering about this myself some time ago, and I came to the following conclusions:

1. If you want a medium armor wilderness dude, you need to look at the Barbarian, because the Fighter doesn't have anything that motivates it to go with medium armor. If you made an archetype that works well with medium or light armor in exchange for more skills... people are just going to go with light armor because of the additional emphasis on mental stats (given more skills).

2. If a Scout archetype were to work well... it would need a NATURAL incentive to invest in Strength... and a natural incentive to go with medium armor. Sadly for you, the natural incentive for medium armor, over heavy, is the possibility of not sucking at stealth.

So with this in mind I created this archetype. It's not necessarily scoutish, but I liked it:

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/S1tczxpoe

Not a bad homebrew! It's not precisely what I'm looking for, but I'll be saving it in my folder with the other nifty homebrews I've been collecting. Thank you!

Honestly, it still feels like a mighty solid option. A huge chunk of new skill proficiencies, a solid skill boosting option,two excellent combat maneuvers-- a to-hit bonus and possibly the best reaction defense in the game (+1d8 AC averages out to 4.5, about as good as Shield and you get Resistance if that's not enough)-- and a ribbon? On top of the Fighter's basic chassis, which is arguably the strongest in the game? You're looking mighty good there, son. You could, I guess, update Natural Explorer to match the Revised Ranger? That would probably be appropriate, and a nice little power bump.

What I was doing with it was giving them Know Your Enemy from the Battlemaster for level 7 and leaving it at that. It does seem like it can be a pretty solid archetype. Just not very exciting! I had thought, without favored terrains, they'd want something skill related similar to how other fighters get skill related benefits at level 7. Is that strong?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What I was doing with it was giving them Know Your Enemy from the Battlemaster for level 7 and leaving it at that. It does seem like it can be a pretty solid archetype. Just not very exciting! I had thought, without favored terrains, they'd want something skill related similar to how other fighters get skill related benefits at level 7. Is that strong?

Eh; the Champion, Battlemaster, and Purple Dragon Knight get generally mediocre utility things at 7 and combat stuff at 3, while the EK gets a combination of combat and noncombat stuff at 3 (you can take a utility spell and/or cantrips-- eg, nabbing Find Familiar) and an excellent combat option at 7. The Scout gets a ton of utility stuff at 3rd, and an incremental upgrade to both utility and noncombat utility at 7th. Not sure what you mean by "without favored terrains," though-- they get a total of three, over the course of the campaign.

EDIT: Unless you mean how the Revised Ranger version of Natural Explorer is all-in-one, rather than picking a specific terrain every few levels. In which case yeah, you should probably give them something. Although looking at it again, I wouldn't recommend adding it as-is; the combat advantages are pretty useful, and come on top of all the skills and the superiority dice... in any case. You might break it down somehow, including into specific terrains; alternately, you might drop the combat benefits and provide something new at 7th... I can't say I'm fond of just stealing a feature from another archetype, though. Maybe let them spend superiority dice on skills without expending them? It would be roughly analogous to the Guidance cantrip, after all-- +1d8/2 = 1d4, and if it's the action cost is better, it is a higher-level ability. An Expertise would be a decent substitute, too. Or a Battlemaster maneuver-- I'd certainly be tempted to spend an ASI on Martial Adept as a Scout.

[Morphic tide]

My overall thinking, after about three different half-done posts screwed over by digging into the rules, is to focus on giving the stuff needed to track and perform hit and run, without any incentive towards particular gear types on purpose. Should the mechanics support going light armor and longbow, picking at enemies while safe from retaliation great. If they support going into combat with heavy armor, a shield and a greatsword, differentiated from more typical choices by being able to freely run between enemies to sword four different blokes in one turn, also fine.

So, level 3, a basic movement speed increase. Just a flat out "You have 10 ft. extra move speed." Or a Bonus Action for Disengage and Dash, but that's just a rip off of Rogue, and Help is too teamwork dependant and demanding for most parties.(assuming most parties don't build around eachother) Meanwhile, Ready as a bonus action basically reads "have an extra action every turn, replace Opportunity Attacks with Attack action." Ally gets hit by an enemy that's been hitting them for the last two rounds? This time, the enemy gets four arrows to the face. Yea, no Ready bonus action. No bonus action in general, at least for level three.

Doing the whole "superiority dice" thing is kinda overrated for Martial Archetypes, so let's not do that. Because it's both commonly used and complicated to balance ad-hoc. Which is the only kind of balance I know, and what's appropriate for this thread.

At level 7, quite a few Martial Archetypes give utility effects. I don't see why not to follow, so let's do one extra Proficiency from Survival, Perception, Investigation and Nature, with half-proficiency to the others. For level 10, maybe this is a good spot to put Disengage and Dodge as bonus actions. Dodge gives Disadvantage to visible enemies trying to attack you and Disengage negates the Opportunity Attacks for moving around. Stuff for both "in your face" and "can't touch this." Which supports the "Scout in name only" thing I pointed out at the start.

For level 15, I'd put more movement speed as an attack-linked thing. Like, make an attack, move 5 ft. for free immediately. This gives another 15 ft. of movement right away, and another 5 ft at level 20, but with a restriction that makes it heavily support switching targets a lot or going at them from a distance. Again, ad-hoc balance, don't care what the "optimal" result is. Maybe swap this with the level 3 feature and get 20 ft. move at level 15 instead.

For level 18, I'll stick the crazy bull**** of having Ready as a Bonus Action. It's a conditional extra action each turn. You set the condition. Which can be "I'm being attacked" as the trigger for letting off a full movement or exploit the level 15 move when you attack thing to jump 15 ft. away while attacking three times. Yet again, ad-hoc balance. Not sure about balance, just sounds nice without being utterly game breaking, and there's a rule which restricts you to one Bonus Action per round, so you choose between Ready, Dodge and Disengage at this point.

Note that this is me wanting to make a new one from scratch, rather than fix the one you are looking for a fix to. Partly because I have no idea what you are looking for in terms of fixes.

[DeAnno]

If you use Revised Natural Explorer (as Mearls has suggested is current RAI on twitter), Scout is actually a very strong option, especially early on before level 7. You're an ambush/alpha strike master due to the combo of Natural Explorer and Action Surge, and you have tons of skills.