Advice on dealing with a bitter TPK

[Trolleitor]

I'm DMing a D&D inspired on Greek mithology, last session the group was divided (one member of the party the members was on another city).

They've been working for a mad sorceror king as double agents, this sorceror king placed 3 big "Arcane Crystals of Hecate" around town, this crystals are on the middle of the street, heavily guarded by the city military.

The city military is acting weird, their skin is pale and their eyes are bloodied. They answer in a monotone fashion and have an obvious hive mind.

Around the city the mad magic of the sorceror is spawning nightmares that attack farms, farmers and their crops. Anyone that says something bad about this king sorceror is taken away by the military and sacrificed for more magical power.

All this was telegraphed to the players.

The players give the sorceror king a magical creature, more powerful than him, so he can sacrifice her to gain her powers. They tried to use her as bait to prepare an ambush. They convinced him that he needed more guards (the group) and the king, his guards (10 of this zombie-like-soldiers) and the players descended below the palace into the prisons.

The sorceror king impaled the magical with and used his magic to keep her alive and gain her powers. He was in a trance during this 10-20 minutes ritual.

The players decided to attempt to kill the king while he was in a trance.

I ruled that he didn't expected their betrayal, so they can surprise the king and his minions. I also ruled that the "semiconsciuos" state of the trance will grant them with advantage on auto-crit on their attacks.

They rolled initiative and the king won the initiative, he was surprised anyways, so he didn't take any actions, (but he still had 3 legendary actions).

The fighter burned everything on him, dropping the king to 0 hp, and the monk hit him twice, to force 3 death saving throw failures.

The problem at this point was the pillars, at the start of each round where the sorceror king is at 0 hp or dead, one pillar sacrifice every living soul in a radius of 200 meters and revive the king at half his hp (which is 35).

Everything went downhill from here, and made a really anticlimatic TPK. The king insulted the PC's and casted hold person (on a level 3 slot) on both players, paralizying them.

They failed their first save, and their save at the end of each of their turns, for 3 rounds.

Each round 3-4 of the guards attacked the PC on the enclosed space, hitting between 1 and 2 hits and making an autocrit.

The players felt helpless, probably an unfair situation and their rolls sucked so hard in a way that I never saw before.

They eventually dropped to 0 hp, and ruled that the guards though that their targets were dead. So they started to move the "corpses" to a room full of decaying bodies.

The monk failed 3 death saving throws, 2 of them with advantage (inspiration)

At the end the monk rolled 10 times under a 11 (he needed a 11 to pass the saving throw)

The other player, the fighter, passed 3 death saving throws and failed one, he wake up hours later.

I told the monk player that he can roll a new PC and that we can see if his character can escape from the underworld (on this world if you die you can try to escape the underworld anyways)

I'm wondering.

Was this an unfair situation or a Leeroy Jenkins situation?
Did you had problems with save or suck spells? Should I stop making sorcerors with hold / dominate / **** you up spells?
What would yo do in that situation?

[Unoriginal]

Your players had a plan, managed to trick the king, and killed him before he could react.

I don't see how it could *possibly* be seen as a Leeroy Jenkins situation.

There is no death saving throws for NPCs.

The problem is that you decided those pillar things could revive the king, apparently several times.

Save or sucks spells aren't really a problem, but I don't see how those two PCs were up to the task of killing an OP sorcerer king who has ways to come back to life mid-fight and several Legendaries unless tricking him. And they did so.

It doesn't seem a balanced encounter to me, at all.

If I *had* to play this encounter, like, if you'd drop me in your DM chair just before the fight and I could do no other changes, I'd have made that the creature the king was trying to sacrifice would break free and attack him, making it easier for the PCs.

Anyway, you said it was a bitter TPK. How did the players react afterward?

[Coffee_Dragon]

The problem at this point was the pillars, at the start of each round where the sorceror king is at 0 hp or dead, one pillar sacrifice every living soul in a radius of 200 meters and revive the king at half his hp (which is 35).

So these pillars one-shotted the PCs to revive the king? Did they know this would happen?

[Unoriginal]

So these pillars one-shotted the PCs to revive the king? Did they know this would happen?

From what I understand the pillars weren't into the room

[Trolleitor]

The Pillars were around the city, they encountered this kind of pillar before (they're called shards of Hecate). The shards that they found so far made people worship the crystal, transmute animals and give them intelligence, use the pillar to make magic weapons, and channel the pilar to enhance their spells (four diferent situations and locations but overall pillar looks the same and each one tend to make different stuff).

They found the first pillar when they entered the city, sorrounding the pillar were 15 foot soldiers on a ring fashion. The city generals (who were disloyal to the king) told the PC's they didn't know why the king keep the pillars around, they know the pillar were bad business. At the night dangerous spirits emerged from the pillar, making traveling the town at night dangerous.

I tend to use glyphs and things that affects relevant enemies hp unless dealth with. Usually in form of healing, temporary hp, maximum hp, etc.

The campaign has a mixture of combat as war and combat as sport. Usually combat as sport is used on dungeons, random encounters or scripted events. Combat as war is used on bosses or when players actions change the playground. The world is a sandboxy and open.

[Trolleitor]

So these pillars one-shotted the PCs to revive the king? Did they know this would happen?

The king didn't one shotted the PC's he cast hold person and paralized them for 3 full rounds, on that rounds the minions reduced the pc's to 0 hp.

[Trolleitor]

Your players had a plan, managed to trick the king, and killed him before he could react.

I don't see how it could *possibly* be seen as a Leeroy Jenkins situation.

There is no death saving throws for NPCs.

The problem is that you decided those pillar things could revive the king, apparently several times.

Save or sucks spells aren't really a problem, but I don't see how those two PCs were up to the task of killing an OP sorcerer king who has ways to come back to life mid-fight and several Legendaries unless tricking him. And they did so.

It doesn't seem a balanced encounter to me, at all.

If I *had* to play this encounter, like, if you'd drop me in your DM chair just before the fight and I could do no other changes, I'd have made that the creature the king was trying to sacrifice would break free and attack him, making it easier for the PCs.

Anyway, you said it was a bitter TPK. How did the players react afterward?

Each crystal could save him one time, forgot to say that the crystal breaks after one use. The crystal were fragile, and PC's could destroy them if they wanted, or break the cains that prevented the crystal from flying away.

The creature was knocked out by the PC's as was already chained from hands and feet to the walls (by the PC's from the king orders), the creature could uncover the PC's true identities if she were able to wake up, and had a lot of reasons to punish the PCs.

The encounter was balanced for a deadly encounter for 5 6th level characters (we usually play from 4 to 5 players from a roster of) they were 3 8th level characters (one PC was in another city as I said).

The monk felt sad, and defeated (specially the player whos PC died in such an anticlimatic way, plus his dice rolls). But moved on quite fast.

On the "Monster and Death" paragraph on PhB 198 says that "Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions" regarding death saving throws.

[Unoriginal]

So you had 2 lvl 8 PCs fight a deadly encounter for 5 lvl 6 PCs.

Well yes, it's no wonder they died.

[MrStabby]

So you have a combat as war game (outside dungeons) - so in this sense anything is "fair". The PCs knew the guy they were fighting was dangerous but failed to do their research regarding the environment, especially the crystals.

The PCs nevertheless came up with a good plan that did have a high likelihood of success, unless they rolled very poorly, which they did. When you enter any fight you accept the risks. It is reasonable to blame the DM only if the encounter was in some way or other unfair. As it is it just seems a tough break for the PCs.

Unless you were explicitly running a death-free easy game then I don't think that you did anything wrong. As for taking some of the bitterness away - maybe have an impact from their actions. Maybe each crystal that resurrected the king is depleted and frees up part of the city and weakens the kings grasp. Some effect of the assault that makes their actions have a game world effect will make the deaths more heroic.

[Trolleitor]

So you have a combat as war game (outside dungeons) - so in this sense anything is "fair". The PCs knew the guy they were fighting was dangerous but failed to do their research regarding the environment, especially the crystals.

The PCs nevertheless came up with a good plan that did have a high likelihood of success, unless they rolled very poorly, which they did. When you enter any fight you accept the risks. It is reasonable to blame the DM only if the encounter was in some way or other unfair. As it is it just seems a tough break for the PCs.

Unless you were explicitly running a death-free easy game then I don't think that you did anything wrong. As for taking some of the bitterness away - maybe have an impact from their actions. Maybe each crystal that resurrected the king is depleted and frees up part of the city and weakens the kings grasp. Some effect of the assault that makes their actions have a game world effect will make the deaths more heroic.

Usually I run campaigns were death is tied to doing very stupid things (like eating several poisons dosses on a row to see what happens, or staying on a burning alchemy lab with multiple volatile stuff for 6 rounds in a row). This was the first time that a PC death felt "cheap" to me, but was unable to think on a way to alter the outcome with a good ingame reason, the best thing I tried to do is to have the sorceror leave the room, but because they lost anyways, probably they just also felt disrespected.

And the crystals... Well yeah... Sort of... When a crystal is used it gets depleted instantly but kills a good bunch of folk around the crystal, just like nearly any magic the king used in front of them. They don't know it yet, but a few hundred of innocent people died when one of the crystal resurrected the king.

[hymer]

There is no death saving throws for NPCs.

Well, that's up to the DM.

Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit point [...].
Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.

[Clone]

Usually I run campaigns were death is tied to doing very stupid things (like eating several poisons dosses on a row to see what happens, or staying on a burning alchemy lab with multiple volatile stuff for 6 rounds in a row). This was the first time that a PC death felt "cheap" to me, but was unable to think on a way to alter the outcome with a good ingame reason, the best thing I tried to do is to have the sorceror leave the room, but because they lost anyways, probably they just also felt disrespected.

And the crystals... Well yeah... Sort of... When a crystal is used it gets depleted instantly but kills a good bunch of folk around the crystal, just like nearly any magic the king used in front of them. They don't know it yet, but a few hundred of innocent people died when one of the crystal resurrected the king.

After looking over things, this is the PCs' fault, both due to rolling poorly and them running into a tough situation. Terrible rolls is something no DM can account for, unless you randomly give advantage or something. The situation for the players was.... well it sounds stupid. Were they aware how powerful this guy was? Why did they decide to attack when they were 2-3 players down?

The only way to avoid this would be for you, as the DM, to warn the players "you know what could happen if this messes up right?". Some people dislike this, but I feel that when the players still continue what they were doing even after you warn them, they tend to accept responsibility easier.

TBH you did what you could within your DM playstyle and the players acted like fools. They didn't know some factors sure, but if they knew what this guy could do, knew he had ten guards with him, were at least a player down and STILL attacked, then there is little excuse for them. Bad rolls too of course, but they should know themselves that it was a very difficult situation.

[Unoriginal]

So you have a combat as war game (outside dungeons) - so in this sense anything is "fair". The PCs knew the guy they were fighting was dangerous but failed to do their research regarding the environment, especially the crystals.

The PCs nevertheless came up with a good plan that did have a high likelihood of success, unless they rolled very poorly, which they did. When you enter any fight you accept the risks. It is reasonable to blame the DM only if the encounter was in some way or other unfair. As it is it just seems a tough break for the PCs.

I would argue that the pillar things having the power to both spawn nightmarish undead and bring the king back to half HP was not a smooth move, in the sense that the PCs could probably not have found out about it by doing their homework.

Not that the foes shouldn't have surprises, just that this + all the rest was too much.

That being said, they could probably have won handily if they'd have more people with them, so...

[MrStabby]

I would argue that the pillar things having the power to both spawn nightmarish undead and bring the king back to half HP was not a smooth move, in the sense that the PCs could probably not have found out about it by doing their homework.

Not that the foes shouldn't have surprises, just that this + all the rest was too much.

That being said, they could probably have won handily if they'd have more people with them, so...

Possibly the Resurrection effect could have been better telegraphed, of if not the effect then the consequence. If nothing else it acts as an extra layer of security - effectively a human shield. You have a strong incentive to not rebel against the king and try and kill him if it will kill hundreds of your compatriots.

A resurrection effect is a solid defence to include in an encounter though; it keeps things fun and stops epic encounters devolving into a party of PCs trying to see how much damage they can do in one round. Boss fights should be something for all characters to participate in, not just nova builds.

The test of fairness was how much of a secret these effects were. Were there hints that the PCs didn't pick up on? If so then I would say it was fair (in a combat as war sense). Could an investigation have revealed something or at least provided a hint? If so then probably fair (exception being if it would be so obscure that the game would have stopped being fun by having to dig so deep). Even if it was a total secret is isn't always unfair, as long as it is a nasty surprise rather than an overwhelming shock.

[Kryx]

I would suggest that Hold Person played a large factor in this scenario. Paralyze being auto crits is simple too strong of a 2nd level spell imo. Sure there are saves every round, but in the hands of a melee focused PC group a big boss can be burned incredibly quickly as a result of even 1 failed save. I'm not a fan of it imposing Paralyzed. I'm going to try Restrained in my next game starting in a week or two.

[Sigreid]

Well, that's up to the DM.

Actually, RAW it's player choice.

In any event, I can see why they're upset. They had a good plan. The plan worked...until it didn't. Personally, I see the resurrecting of the king back at half HP in the way you did as kind of a cheap move. Like in a video game when you defeat the boss and all of a sudden you have to do it again. If the king were stunned or something for a round or two and unable to take offensive actions, I mean he was just dead after all, it would be quite a bit different and seem a bit less like an execution of the party.

That said, I'd shrug it off if I was the player.

[Emay Ecks]

My thoughts align with MrStabby and Unoriginal. From the sounds of it, the players had no idea he could resurrect. If I want players to realistically be able to learn about something, I make sure there are at least 3 possible places/clues they could research/learn that information, any less and I am denying them information.

Not to mention, coming back from the dead is incredibly difficult and taxing. If this guy could just come back from the dead and start firing off third level spells, that's incredibly overpowered. Here's some 5th edition resurrection spells and their limitations:

-Revivify (3rd level spell) takes 1 action and restores at 1 hp. Must be cast within 1 minute of death, and is a touch spell.
-Resurrection (7th level spell) takes 1 HOUR to cast and gives the target -4 to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Additionally the target can't cast spells, and has disadvantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. Also a touch spell.
-True Resurrection (9th level spell) again takes 1 HOUR to cast (and 25k gold) and is a touch spell.

So from the sounds of it, your crystals cast an incredibly powerful, incredibly long range revivify, that doesn't take an action because it occurred at the start of the round.

If I was you here's some things I might've have done differently:
-Resurrection would occur after the fight, so that the PCs would walk home thinking themselves victorious, but the BBEG survives.
-Resurrection would take at least a full round, so the BBEG wouldn't have his turn whenever he comes back.
-BBEG has some kind of disadvantage or debuff after coming back from the dead.

Now that the party is dead here's what I'd do:
-The townspeople now notice that the crystal just murdered several hundred of them. While it is tragic the heroes died, they are recognized as martyrs leading to a revolution in the city.
-The magical creature has been released due to the distraction during the fight, and is now wreaking havoc for the BBEG.

[Armored Walrus]

Sounds to me like the players themselves aren't bitter about it, and you have a means for that player to eventually, possibly get that character back if they want to. Sometime players beat the odds on the dice - sometimes in the favor, sometimes against. That's part of the uncertainty that gives combat its meaning.

I would bet that when your next session starts, there will be no bitterness remaining, and your game will go on just fine - with the party having some knowledge they didn't have before, and a powerful enemy that is now on to their ruse. Sounds like an interesting campaign; one worth rolling up a new character to continue playing.

[BurgerBeast]

I don't personally see anything wrong with it.

I understand that it sucks, for the PCs and for you, so... yeah, that sucks. But I'll tell you what would suck a lot worse: giving them the victory when you know they actually lost.

First and foremost: the PCs did not need to do this. They were not railroaded into this fight. They picked it. This is why I don't care if the fight is "balanced." If you try to kill a king, there is no obligation for the game world to morph to match your level. Beyond this, they knew they were three two. They chose to take this fight on with three two. They picked the odds.

Second: 5e is swingy. It can suck, but that's the game. Had the hold person saves succeeded, from the sounds of it, they would have had a chance to win.

Third: since you had created these mechanics ahead of time, it's fair. If you had decided, upon the king's death, to change the crystals so that they have this property, then that would be unfair. It was fair.

-----

I just want to reiterate: I think it was fair. However:

(1) I think it would have been nice if you somehow tipped the PCs off, once the king was dead, that he was going to be resurrected. Some magical fluff to remind them that he would rise again... because the PC who wasted his/her actions forcing failed death saves could have been given the chance to not waste his/her actions. Action economy is critical, and only more so when there are only two PCs in the fight.

PCs do not typically think NPCs get death saves (but you are correct to give them to him), but it's pretty bad if you, as a PC, take measures to ensure he's dead, only to find it was futile.

(2) Out of curiosity, did you roll initiative for the crystals? I think this would have been a nice touch. If every initiative count 13 (or whatever), the crystals pulsed with their magical energies, this would have been a good, constant reminder to the PCs that they were up against a particularly nasty challenge that is connected to the crystals.

Both of the above are just suggestions to "get more" out of it. I don't think they are required to make the challenge fair. If anything, D&D needs more TPKs. PCs play with the assumption that they are entitled to survive and the world should be bubble-wrapped for them. It's not an overt assumption, and it does happens to be a pretty reasonable assumption, but the possibility of a TPK should be something that is understood to be rare very rare but possible. And when it happens, it should suck.

[StoicLeaf]

I concur with some of the posts here.
The main point I'd focus on is the crystal resurrection.
If they knew or had several opportunities to discover what they did, then the deaths are fair (they were even split, that's a party no no!).

If it's something you dropped on them and didn't try to dissuade them from their plan then .. well .. it seems a bit harsh.

[hymer]

Actually, RAW it's player choice.

How do you figure that?

[Sigreid]

How do you figure that?

Because it says that the player chooses whether to kill their opponent or knock them out?

[hymer]

Because it says that the player chooses whether to kill their opponent or knock them out?

You don't get to choose to kill them. You can choose to knock them out.

When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. [...] The creature falls unconscious and is stable.

With the further clarification I quoted above, there seems to be no ambiguity to me.

[Trolleitor]

Well, one of the players after the fight with the kind said that he "suspected" that the crystals could resurrect him, but he didn't expected to get paralized. But I must admit that I didn't told anything about the resurrection property, they suspected it because I tend to use mechanics that "soften up" powerful people, or battles that can't be won with raw damage.

They didn't knew what was the purpose of the crystals, but they knew that not knowing is bad news. They also had NPC's contacts that could help them on that matter, but they had to wait one or two days before help could arrive, and time is an important resource on this campaign.

Looking at your answers I noticed something I usually do on "respawning/resurrection/trickery" situations. I usually tell the players something odd is happening (like "the necklace is tickling with a goulish light" when they drop an enemy to 0 hp before he wakes up again, or "the runes on the walls start to burn when you slash the fiend", before an evil spell gives a few temporary hp to the demon).

I made a big mistake to just describe how he wakes up, say a few phrases and cast a spell.

This was a kind of twisting point aswell, my notes on his behaviour were "throw a fireball and run like a chicken because sorceror kings don't like to fight with punny warriors". I though that just a fireball wasn't enough to defeat them, he will just walk away while they hack a bunch of minions and decide how to work after that.

Then I realized the players said they wanted to stay behind him, to prevent him from running away. The dungeon was very narrow and overcrowded at that moment.
I realized that if he casted a fireball at that point, everyone would get caught (even himself) and he just wanted to disengage from this battle. So I change his battle plan to "hold person" and run.

And... Wipe...

PD: Thanks for your answers, they were really helpful!

[Finieous]

My DM does stuff like this a lot, but amazingly only when his "boss fights" are "too easy."

"You strike him down, but suddenly (!), dark energy infuses The Boss and you see his wounds heal!"

"Suddenly (!), the Dark Crystal flares and all your spells and buffs are down!"

"You move in for the kill, but suddenly (!), all the statues in the room start firing energy blasts at you!"

It's usually pretty easy to tell when it's planned and when he's pulling it out of his axe beak. I consider them CAS gimmicks and they're really unsatisfying. And, of course, sometimes it all goes "wrong" and we should TPK, so then another CAS gimmick is required to save us. Ugh. I generally enjoy the game, but the more I type the more I feel like quitting. Think I'll stop now.

[Pex]

It's possible for a player to think that the pillars resurrecting the king just after the party surprised him and killed him is a DM cop-out. "How dare the players trick me. I'll show them!" Wham, king is back and TPK on top of it. I can accept that wasn't your intent or reasoning and no player might have mentioned it, but it's possible that's what one or more players are thinking hence being "bitter".

[ProsecutorGodot]

Because it says that the player chooses whether to kill their opponent or knock them out?

You're correct that the player can choose to knock any enemy out under reasonable circumstances but the idea was that a bbeg was given death saving throws, which is a DM only option.

Becoming unconscious and stable because your attacker was merciful with you is not the same as your will to live being tested against fatal injuries.

[CaptainSarathai]

It's possible for a player to think that the pillars resurrecting the king just after the party surprised him and killed him is a DM cop-out. "How dare the players trick me. I'll show them!" Wham, king is back and TPK on top of it. I can accept that wasn't your intent or reasoning and no player might have mentioned it, but it's possible that's what one or more players are thinking hence being "bitter".

Yeah, that's more the risk here; they see the Ressurection as "you cannot possibly win this fight, he's the BBEG if the campaign, and cannot die yet." Basically, he's wearing adamantine plot-armor.

Also, being Restrained or Paralyzed is just a $*tty way to get killed. I don't usually "win" an encounter by rendering my PCs defenseless like that. I might do it to a handful of those present, but not all of them. If I were in your shoes, I would have had the king do some monologuing while they're restrained. Let him gloat about how they've failed, how the crystals work, what his evil master plan is, etc.
Let the PCs roll their saves each round as he's talking.
Then, he says something like,
"But it doesn't matter; my minions will kill you soon, your story ends here."
And then he poofs away, the effect ends, and they fight for their lives against the 10 zombies.

They've still lost. They've even put themselves and the party into a horrible situation, because they've blown their cover. If the king suspects that they've survived, they'll have a crazy powerful necromancer on their tail.
But they aren't necessarily dead. Because it was a good plan, albeit extremely risky. Meta knowledge should have given them a hunch that they wouldn't prevail, but that's actually great roleplay of they were still willing to risk it because "that's what our characters would do." Don't punish them too severely for that. Especially if you risk making it look like a DM cop-out.

[BurgerBeast]

Also, being Restrained or Paralyzed is just a $*tty way to get killed. I don't usually "win" an encounter by rendering my PCs defenseless like that. I might do it to a handful of those present, but not all of them. If I were in your shoes, I would have had the king do some monologuing while they're restrained. Let him gloat about how they've failed, how the crystals work, what his evil master plan is, etc.
Let the PCs roll their saves each round as he's talking.
Then, he says something like,
"But it doesn't matter; my minions will kill you soon, your story ends here."
And then he poofs away, the effect ends, and they fight for their lives against the 10 zombies.

They've still lost. They've even put themselves and the party into a horrible situation, because they've blown their cover. If the king suspects that they've survived, they'll have a crazy powerful necromancer on their tail.
But they aren't necessarily dead. Because it was a good plan, albeit extremely risky. Meta knowledge should have given them a hunch that they wouldn't prevail, but that's actually great roleplay of they were still willing to risk it because "that's what our characters would do." Don't punish them too severely for that. Especially if you risk making it look like a DM cop-out.

I was originally writing this reply to say that I disagreed with you, because I play for the challenge, and if my DM pulled punches, I'd be disappointed. But, what you've actually said here is seriously more bada$$, and would be a better application of my philosophy.

It's as though the PCs showed up and threatened to kill the big bad, and rather than kill them, he slapped them in the face, scolded them like children, and decided they weren't worth the effort. I think I like it.

[GlenSmash!]

If I was having something resurrect an NPC, I probably wouldn't give that NPC Death Saving Throws too,