Kineticist questions

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm playing an optimized SoP blaster and one of the other players claimed, that my character is so overpowered. Specifically he referred to my ability to switch elements (I have 3 well chosen blast shapes and Admixture to combine them) and the various crowd control and damage rider effects I got for my blasts as outside what PF magic is actually capable. So I'm collecting various stuff to prove that nothing my char does is completely new and that it is him who lacks system mastery/play experience*. Which brings me to the kineticist. I don't know the class well enough to answer the following questions:

• How much damage can an optimized kineticist do per round at level 12? I've read that even an expert with a bow can outdamage a kineticist, but even if that is true, what does it say about the damage potential?
• How many different elements can a kineticist use simultaneously?
• If more than one, can they be admixtured?
• Does the elemental attack have additional rider effects? If not, can you use metamagic?

*I'm aware that the actual conflict between us lies in the fact that I have an optimized character (which would be true regardless of class) and he has an anti-optimized martial, but I need to disprove first his notion that the root problem lies with SoP before I can address the root problem.

[exelsisxax]

Any competent SoP class IS a lot better than the kineticist. If you're an elementalist, your friend is totally correct to say that you are way stronger than a kineticist. This friend is wrong to think it's OP on your end, because in fact the kineticist sucks. You need to reframe your argumentation around that fact: an SoP blaster is better but not overpowered, the 1PP equivalent is vastly underpowered.

[Hackulator]

I'm playing an optimized SoP blaster and one of the other players claimed, that my character is so overpowered. Specifically he referred to my ability to switch elements (I have 3 well chosen blast shapes and Admixture to combine them) and the various crowd control and damage rider effects I got for my blasts as outside what PF magic is actually capable. So I'm collecting various stuff to prove that nothing my char does is completely new and that it is him who lacks system mastery/play experience*. Which brings me to the kineticist. I don't know the class well enough to answer the following questions:

• How much damage can an optimized kineticist do per round at level 12? I've read that even an expert with a bow can outdamage a kineticist, but even if that is true, what does it say about the damage potential?
• How many different elements can a kineticist use simultaneously?
• If more than one, can they be admixtured?
• Does the elemental attack have additional rider effects? If not, can you use metamagic?

*I'm aware that the actual conflict between us lies in the fact that I have an optimized character (which would be true regardless of class) and he has an anti-optimized martial, but I need to disprove first his notion that the root problem lies with SoP before I can address the root problem.

The real question is which of you is out of line with the power level of the game? Are you smashing every encounter while needing little or no help from the rest of the party, or is he just weak as hell and everyone else is doing fine compared to you?

[Kallimakus]

Having recently had a kineticist in my game, I respectfully disagree with the fact that a kineticist is very weak. Now, I'm sure that a properly optimized damage dealer can outdamage them. However, since (in my non-expert opinion) kineticist as a class has a rather set floor and ceiling for damage, it should be interpreted as a message from game designers saying 'this is good damage'.

A level 12 kineticist can (as a move+standard action) gather power and unleash a 12d6+1/2Con ranged touch attack, or 12d6+12+Con damage ranged attack. For 1 Burn, they can Empower it. They could do it twice/day through their internal buffer before taking burn. Generally, attaching any addition to the kinetic blast requires taking burn, so you usually need to choose between the high-damage composite blast and low-damage and rider effects.

I am personally of the opinion that (an optimized) elementalist deals too much damage (damage/accuracy) for my liking. I generally prefer a lower power game and look down on heavy optimization in general, which probably explains my viewpoint. But what is important is that no-one feels overshadowed.

[Kurald Galain]

A level 12 kineticist can (as a move+standard action) gather power and unleash a 12d6+1/2Con ranged touch attack,

Meh. An unoptimized level 12 sorcerer can (as a standard action) unleash a 12d6+12 ranged touch attack. By taking a full round, they can Empower it, which they can do at least sixteen times per day. Oh and they can cast some spells besides that.

And that was a bog-standard core-only unoptimized sorc. A bog-standard core-only unoptimized paladin, for example, would do similar damage (4 - 5 attacks at 1d8+20) assuming an evil target. Bog-standard rogue? Start with 28d6 damage (four attacks for 7d6).

Twelve dice sounds like a lot but it's only about 50 damage, which is completely unimpressive by level twelve. Regular builds deal two or three times that before any optimization.

[EldritchWeaver]

Any competent SoP class IS a lot better than the kineticist. If you're an elementalist, your friend is totally correct to say that you are way stronger than a kineticist. This friend is wrong to think it's OP on your end, because in fact the kineticist sucks. You need to reframe your argumentation around that fact: an SoP blaster is better but not overpowered, the 1PP equivalent is vastly underpowered.

I need the kineticist as a at-will blaster to show that even 1PP can do similar things. I didn't post my other parts of the arguments, because they destract from the open points.

The real question is which of you is out of line with the power level of the game? Are you smashing every encounter while needing little or no help from the rest of the party, or is he just weak as hell and everyone else is doing fine compared to you?

Unfortunately, both are true. My character outshines the rest of the party combined, but in the RotRL AP things are going to be more heated soon and then they will not be able to deal with the encounters without my help. A previous battle with several encounters in a short time frame would have been lost without me, with at least one death. But that's not how they see it (yet). I have been already given the ultimatum to change the character to core magic (which would break too many other pieces to be an option for me) or the group will be disbanded. I need to convince him that this wouldn't change things because any character I enjoy to play would break this group. So it is either they shape up or I leave.

Having recently had a kineticist in my game, I respectfully disagree with the fact that a kineticist is very weak. Now, I'm sure that a properly optimized damage dealer can outdamage them. However, since (in my non-expert opinion) kineticist as a class has a rather set floor and ceiling for damage, it should be interpreted as a message from game designers saying 'this is good damage'.

A level 12 kineticist can (as a move+standard action) gather power and unleash a 12d6+1/2Con ranged touch attack, or 12d6+12+Con damage ranged attack. For 1 Burn, they can Empower it. They could do it twice/day through their internal buffer before taking burn. Generally, attaching any addition to the kinetic blast requires taking burn, so you usually need to choose between the high-damage composite blast and low-damage and rider effects.

I am personally of the opinion that (an optimized) elementalist deals too much damage (damage/accuracy) for my liking. I generally prefer a lower power game and look down on heavy optimization in general, which probably explains my viewpoint. But what is important is that no-one feels overshadowed.

I haven't invested all my resources into blasting (also playing an Incanter), but I have +3 CL bonus in Destruction. So with Gather Energy and Orb Expert I can do smallish fireballs for 15d+6 damage (Reflex half) for no SP cost. Not that much difference damage-wise. Which makes me wonder, what the elementalist actually chose to highly outdamage the kineticist.

Meh. An unoptimized level 12 sorcerer can (as a standard action) unleash a 12d6+12 ranged touch attack. By taking a full round, they can Empower it, which they can do at least sixteen times per day. Oh and they can cast some spells besides that.

And that was a bog-standard core-only unoptimized sorc. A bog-standard core-only unoptimized paladin, for example, would do similar damage (4 - 5 attacks at 1d8+20) assuming an evil target. Bog-standard rogue? Start with 28d6 damage (four attacks for 7d6).

Twelve dice sounds like a lot but it's only about 50 damage, which is completely unimpressive by level twelve. Regular builds deal two or three times that before any optimization.

Well, the martials can deal around 70 damage in a full-round, so even my average damage is seen as powerful.

[Hackulator]

Unfortunately, both are true. My character outshines the rest of the party combined, but in the RotRL AP things are going to be more heated soon and then they will not be able to deal with the encounters without my help. A previous battle with several encounters in a short time frame would have been lost without me, with at least one death. But that's not how they see it (yet). I have been already given the ultimatum to change the character to core magic (which would break too many other pieces to be an option for me) or the group will be disbanded. I need to convince him that this wouldn't change things because any character I enjoy to play would break this group. So it is either they shape up or I leave.

I'm confused, is one player giving you an ultimatum? If so, who cares? If this is the entire group its a different thing.

Honestly, it sounds like you are an optimizer playing in a party of people who don't want to optimize. This makes the game less fun for everyone but you. If you are the odd person out, you should probably either change your play style to fit the group or find a group that better matches how you want to do things.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, the martials can deal around 70 damage in a full-round, so even my average damage is seen as powerful.

Please explain this one. The martials deal substantially more damage per round than you do, on average. So how on earth is your damage seen as powerful and theirs is not?

[exelsisxax]

Again, do not attempt to use kineticist as your comparison point, because it CAN'T do similar things. It sucks compared to SoP casters, and any argument that relies on not overshadowing the kineticist is already fallacious and invalid.

It would be a lot more helpful to A: help unsuck the other players' characters if they really suck that much or B: stop optimizing so much.

I'm also wondering how you have +3 to destruction CL on an incanter NOT invested in blasting.

[Kallimakus]

Meh. An unoptimized level 12 sorcerer can (as a standard action) unleash a 12d6+12 ranged touch attack. By taking a full round, they can Empower it, which they can do at least sixteen times per day. Oh and they can cast some spells besides that.

And that was a bog-standard core-only unoptimized sorc. A bog-standard core-only unoptimized paladin, for example, would do similar damage (4 - 5 attacks at 1d8+20) assuming an evil target. Bog-standard rogue? Start with 28d6 damage (four attacks for 7d6).

Twelve dice sounds like a lot but it's only about 50 damage, which is completely unimpressive by level twelve. Regular builds deal two or three times that before any optimization.

I did not intend to suggest that 12d6+n at level 12 was really high, merely illustrating what the kineticist does. I would think (based on anecdotal evidence from the game I run) that full BAB classes can typically count on first and second iteratives to hit (less if PA/TWF/rapid shot) and 3/4 BAB only first so 'if all attacks hit' damage is largely The way I see it, that amount of damage is either gated behind hitting high AC or overkilling an enemy weak enough to get hit. irrelevant. Granted, kineticist has a whole host of flaws (damage is mediocre to me, accuracy and range are low) but the amount of damage seems on level with the amount that a monster of similar CR is assumed to do (and therefore my assumed level of 'OK' damage).

I wish to reiterate that I don't think that kineticists do very high damage. Another point I want to state is that, again, some groups are used to different levels of optimization. In theory a Paladin that picked all the ranged combat feats is optimized for the role (in that he used his one build resource (Feats) to make himself better at it). The fact that he might have been able to devote even more of his build to it is irrelevant. I'm just pointing out semantics here. Optimization is a spectrum, and all characters place somewhere.

I need the kineticist as a at-will blaster to show that even 1PP can do similar things. I didn't post my other parts of the arguments, because they destract from the open points.

Afaik, kineticist doesn't have many options to increase damage.

Unfortunately, both are true. My character outshines the rest of the party combined, but in the RotRL AP things are going to be more heated soon and then they will not be able to deal with the encounters without my help. A previous battle with several encounters in a short time frame would have been lost without me, with at least one death. But that's not how they see it (yet). I have been already given the ultimatum to change the character to core magic (which would break too many other pieces to be an option for me) or the group will be disbanded. I need to convince him that this wouldn't change things because any character I enjoy to play would break this group. So it is either they shape up or I leave.

I haven't invested all my resources into blasting (also playing an Incanter), but I have +3 CL bonus in Destruction. So with Gather Energy and Orb Expert I can do smallish fireballs for 15d+6 damage (Reflex half) for no SP cost. Not that much difference damage-wise. Which makes me wonder, what the elementalist actually chose to highly outdamage the kineticist.

This might be an/the issue. 15d6 AoE at will is way more than I think any 1st party class can do. In my game (using both SoP and regular magic) I banned Gather Energy because it renders at-will blasting a bit too powerful to my liking. As I stated earlier, I'm a GM first (and a player rarely) so I don't look at how powerful a character is compared to others nearly as much as I look at how powerful a character is compared to monsters. So if you can nuke arbitrarily many encounters, I'd have a problem with it.

Well, the martials can deal around 70 damage in a full-round, so even my average damage is seen as powerful.

Perhaps an option would be to demonstrate this is an issue. I'd suggest running a session (say, one you've already gone through to emphasise the point) as a one-off with a character at the level of the other player characters. If/when you run into a TPK, you'll have proven your point that they are too weak. If you make it through, they will have proven the point that your character is excessively powerful.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm confused, is one player giving you an ultimatum? If so, who cares? If this is the entire group its a different thing.

Honestly, it sounds like you are an optimizer playing in a party of people who don't want to optimize. This makes the game less fun for everyone but you. If you are the odd person out, you should probably either change your play style to fit the group or find a group that better matches how you want to do things.

It was one player delivering the decision of the players overall, which means that there 2 without the GM. I actually don't know if the GM agrees. I forgot to ask. Considering, that I like to optimize too much to not to do it, I might end up leaving. But that decision has to be made yet.

Please explain this one. The martials deal substantially more damage per round than you do, on average. So how on earth is your damage seen as powerful and theirs is not?

It's because of AoE. I damage several enemies, when they are too close together. And use rider effects.

Again, do not attempt to use kineticist as your comparison point, because it CAN'T do similar things. It sucks compared to SoP casters, and any argument that relies on not overshadowing the kineticist is already fallacious and invalid.

It would be a lot more helpful to A: help unsuck the other players' characters if they really suck that much or B: stop optimizing so much.

I'm also wondering how you have +3 to destruction CL on an incanter NOT invested in blasting.

I tried to unsuck their characters already. It was met is heavy resistance. I got only slight improvements in. Also, I did use my incanter spezialization points for destruction stuff and bought a staff of destruction, but otherwise I spread out in non-blaster stuff. Both to be able to more things and to not dominate fights so much. Instead I dominated everything...

This might be an/the issue. 15d6 AoE at will is way more than I think any 1st party class can do. In my game (using both SoP and regular magic) I banned Gather Energy because it renders at-will blasting a bit too powerful to my liking. As I stated earlier, I'm a GM first (and a player rarely) so I don't look at how powerful a character is compared to others nearly as much as I look at how powerful a character is compared to monsters. So if you can nuke arbitrarily many encounters, I'd have a problem with it.

I didn't have Gather Energy long. Actually only one session. I took it after the big battle, because I saw that my SPs got quite depleted (but wasn't out of them). Also, combining it with Admixture isn't a good idea for round 1, so I will spend some SPs anyway.

Perhaps an option would be to demonstrate this is an issue. I'd suggest running a session (say, one you've already gone through to emphasise the point) as a one-off with a character at the level of the other player characters. If/when you run into a TPK, you'll have proven your point that they are too weak. If you make it through, they will have proven the point that your character is excessively powerful.

I like that. I could repeat the big battle and prove that they'd die.

[Arutema]

• How much damage can an optimized kineticist do per round at level 12? I've read that even an expert with a bow can outdamage a kineticist, but even if that is true, what does it say about the damage potential?
• How many different elements can a kineticist use simultaneously?
• If more than one, can they be admixtured?
• Does the elemental attack have additional rider effects? If not, can you use metamagic?

By level 12, you have the option to take kinetic whip, infusion specialization to reduce its base cost to 0, and enough BAB to make 2 attacks per round with it.

This lets you do 2x (6d6+6+con) targeting regular AC, or 2x (6d6+1/2 con) targeting touch, not counting any AoOs you may get with your 10' reach. If you're not averse to taking 12 nonlethal damage, you can empower the whip to boost this by 50%. If you really feel like going nova, you can take 24 nonlethal damage to create a composite whip for 2x (12d6+2xcon) targeting regular AC. Unlike your ranged blast, you will get extra attacks if you've got a buddy to cast haste (or do it yourself if you took air as an element).

You get one element at start plus another at level 7 and 14. The rarely-hit level 20 capstone gives you limited access to all of them.

They can be admixtured as a composite blast, which costs 2 burn before any reductions, see above for its damage numbers.

It has no rider effects unless you use substance infusion to give it such. These cost burn, which is then reduced by infusion specialization and gather power.

You cannot use metamagic, but you get metakinesis for it which functions as metamagic and costs burn as you level in kineticist. This burn is reduced by metakinetic master at level 19, and by gather power at all levels.

[eldskald]

There was a guide posted in this forum by someone whos goes by F50 that calculated the everage damage of the kineticists at all levels. You can check it here. They assume certain values of burn stacked onto Elemental Overflow and total Con modifier. They also explain about rising damage with items and feats, so I suggest taking a look.

So, for the op's question, a lv 12 kineticist can do:

• Against AC, 69 damage taking no burn, 96 damage taking 1 burn or 126 damage taking 3 burn.
• Against touch and SR, 52 damage taking no burn, 73 damage taking 1 burn or 103 damage taking 3 burn.
• In both cases, they have 3 free burn by Infusion Specialization to change their blasts, which usually means AoE, range or battlefield control.
• They take burn to add metakinesis. With 1 burn they empower, with 2 burn they maximize.
• There are not many ways to rise damage. They either take burn to add metakinesis to one blast or stack Elemental Overflow bonuses to all blasts by taking burn previously.
• In all those cases, they're spending their move action to Gather Power and standard action to blast.
• They only have 2 elements, and most physical composite blasts will do physical and energy damage, meaning they're susceptible to both DR and resistances. Energy composite blasts will have to bypass SR and do less damage.
• When taking no burn, it's all at will.

As Arutema also said, they can also use whip infusion to do more than one blast per turn, though that wouldn't get bonus damage from Elemental Overflow. Taking no burn, assuming F50 assumptions and that you're targeting touch to hit with the second iterative, that would everage 50 damage. With haste, it bumps up to 75. I don't know if it's valid, but maybe they could get TWF to do more attacks. Each additional strike is 25 damage. Be aware that with energy blasts you have to bypass SR with each attack. You also need to reach your targets, so this damage is not as consistent as blasting from afar.