Spiderman: Homecoming

[LaZodiac]

It is a lie though. It wasn't very likely that it was built by slaves. If she meant the White House she would have been right.
http://www.vulture.com/2017/07/was-t...by-slaves.html

All I'm going to say on this subject (it's deffo not forum safe) is that the article seems to basically just say what the movie said. Was it built by slaves? EEEH, KINDA.

Unrelated I love every article Vulture media does on Spiderman Homecoming because they're required to make the "no relation" joke.

[Frozen_Feet]

It is a lie though.

There's no lie. The joke is that the teacher doesn't feel like sticking to his guns when the monument security makes a "maybe" gesture.

[Rodin]

Which is ultimately the films problem. It relies very heavily on the idea that you already care about the character and the world and know who everyone important is before the film is even playing.

I have to disagree here. The extent of my experience with Spiderman is the original Sam Raimi movie from 15 years ago. I only saw that one once. Needless to say, my memories are a bit fuzzy. Beyond that, my knowledge of the character is pure pop culture osmosis.

I've never heard of Toomes or the Vulture. I didn't know who Flash was - it was news to me upon coming to this forum that he exists in the comic books. Michelle was completely unfamiliar to me, as were Liz and Ned. The only people I knew going in were Peter, Aunt May, and Tony Stark. Oh, and a vague recollection that Happy was a background character from earlier Iron Man movies.

That doesn't speak to me as needing to know who everybody is. The movie assumes you've seen Civil War, which is fair since Spiderman was introduced in that movie. Beyond that, I loved the characters for who they were.

[Green Elf]

Did anyone sit through all of the credits to see the post credits scene? That was really funny.
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...jtvfnGP_UlkifA)
I hope this works.

[Jayngfet]

There's no lie. The joke is that the teacher doesn't feel like sticking to his guns when the monument security makes a "maybe" gesture.

In all honesty the whole conversation could be avoided provided they had a better idea on what Michelle is meant to be. She spends the whole film being a comic relief character who causes trouble for no real reason(Read: Protesting an embassy to protest, not any specific thing but just in general). But then she's also apparently a super genius and does extra curricular stuff as well. But she doesn't have friends despite hanging out with literally everyone in the film. For her to have any kind of implicit morality outside of just banging on as per usual is strange to say the least.

The entire idea of Peter going to a super school ruined basically all of the teen characters, since they need to fit into their usual archtypes while ALSO being elite smarty pants types while also dealing with the plot itself. It just doesn't really work.

[Bartmanhomer]

Peter shouldn't have turned down the Avengers job for Tony Starks. But oh well.

[LaZodiac]

In all honesty the whole conversation could be avoided provided they had a better idea on what Michelle is meant to be. She spends the whole film being a comic relief character who causes trouble for no real reason(Read: Protesting an embassy to protest, not any specific thing but just in general). But then she's also apparently a super genius and does extra curricular stuff as well. But she doesn't have friends despite hanging out with literally everyone in the film. For her to have any kind of implicit morality outside of just banging on as per usual is strange to say the least.

The entire idea of Peter going to a super school ruined basically all of the teen characters, since they need to fit into their usual archtypes while ALSO being elite smarty pants types while also dealing with the plot itself. It just doesn't really work.

What makes you think this is a super school?

[Tvtyrant]

What makes you think this is a super school?

It is a science school, and is based on STEM schools in New York.

[Bartmanhomer]

It is a science school, and is based on STEM schools in New York.

I don't think science school and super school are the same thing but what do I know?

[Kitten Champion]

It is a science school, and is based on STEM schools in New York.

It's basically Miles Morales' school, except he had a dorm to live in which Peter's story doesn't need. Miles' is a charter school too, which, I don't know enough about charter schools as to whether that's true here as well.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that was an actual high school that was being shot in in the first place. The only thing they had which I didn't in my high school life were the stuff friendly for screenplays and directors -- like tiny class sizes, student-made broadcast news for humourous exposition, available web-fluid components in chemistry labs, or teachers who act for plot convenience and comedic effect.

[Tvtyrant]

It's basically Miles Morales' school, except he had a dorm to live in which Peter's story doesn't need. Miles' is a charter school too, which, I don't know enough about charter schools as to whether that's true here as well.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that was an actual high school that was being shot in in the first place. The only thing they had which I didn't in my high school life were the stuff friendly for screenplays and directors -- like tiny class sizes, student-made broadcast news for humourous exposition, available web-fluid components in chemistry labs, or teachers who act for plot convenience and comedic effect.

But that is why you go to magnet schools, for the small class sizes and greater variety and depth of classes. My high school was an IB magnet school for tbe district and everything looked much the same.

[Dilvish]

Spoiler

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Toomes hasn't revealed Spiderman's identity. I find that interesting. What is in it for him (and the Marvel franchise) to keep that secret?

[Rodin]

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Toomes hasn't revealed Spiderman's identity. I find that interesting. What is in it for him (and the Marvel franchise) to keep that secret?

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He didn't keep the secret because it gains him anything. He kept the secret because Spiderman first warned him that the power cells were going to explode and then risked his life to save him.

It's both a measure of respect and repaying Peter.

[Douglas]

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He didn't keep the secret because it gains him anything. He kept the secret because Spiderman first warned him that the power cells were going to explode and then risked his life to save him.

It's both a measure of respect and repaying Peter.

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That, and Peter saved his daughter's life. He may have "already repaid" that by giving Peter a chance to back off earlier, but I'd expect it to still be a factor in his thinking.

Toomes' motivation was a combination of greed and getting revenge on the corrupt people in power. Peter has twice saved a life that Toomes valued more than any amount of money, and demonstrated through the actions Toomes personally witnessed that Peter is not corrupt - that Peter genuinely is a hero who wants to do what is right, not what is good for himself.

Peter may have taken Toomes from a free life of riches to a life in prison, but he did it for reasons Toomes can respect, and in the process went out of his way and even risked his own life to save others - even his enemy, Toomes himself. I think Toomes recognizes that Peter doesn't deserve revenge, and has enough of a conscience to accept and act on that.

[AvatarVecna]

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That, and Peter saved his daughter's life. He may have "already repaid" that by giving Peter a chance to back off earlier, but I'd expect it to still be a factor in his thinking.

Toomes' motivation was a combination of greed and getting revenge on the corrupt people in power. Peter has twice saved a life that Toomes valued more than any amount of money, and demonstrated through the actions Toomes personally witnessed that Peter is not corrupt - that Peter genuinely is a hero who wants to do what is right, not what is good for himself.

Peter may have taken Toomes from a free life of riches to a life in prison, but he did it for reasons Toomes can respect, and in the process went out of his way and even risked his own life to save others - even his enemy, Toomes himself. I think Toomes recognizes that Peter doesn't deserve revenge, and has enough of a conscience to accept and act on that.

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Alternatively, perhaps even additionally, Toomes seemed like the guy who takes Peter's interference personally...and keeps it personal. Maybe he's willing to let things go now that Peter saved him...but if he didn't let it go, he'd keep it personal between him and Spider-Man. Telling a bunch of criminals where to find Spidey wpuld make the vengeance less personal...and they'd potentially involve Peter's family, which wouldn't gel well with Toomes' moral code.

[random11]

Saw the movie yesterday, and liked it very much.

Don't want to mention all the positive things that others already wrote in this thread, but I have to just say that it was an excellent villain.
Good motivation, great actor, and fits perfectly with the movie.

The only thing that bothered me in the movie is Stark being the mentor.
Really, Tony Stark is the one to teach about power and responsibility?
I'd be happy if he was replaced with... Well, almost any other avenger of major MCU character (Preferably Nick Fury)

Still, it wasn't the focus of the story, and compared to the rest it feels like a minor problem.
I also understand why Peter, as a science guy, has sort of a crush on Stark despite his obvious flaws.

[Douglas]

I think Tony doesn't really qualifies as a mentor here, and isn't supposed to. He's the guy who provides some fancy supertech toys and says "you're just a kid, stay away from anything genuinely dangerous". And the only reason he even has that role is that he's the one who recruited Peter in Civil War.

And then he punishes Peter for trying to be a true hero by taking the supertech away rather than trying to teach anything about Peter's mistakes.

Peter learns about power and responsibility from Uncle Ben (who died offscreen before Civil War) and from personal experience, not from Tony Stark.

[Kitten Champion]

I think we all pretty much knew from the get-go that Tony Stark was going to be a pretty crappy mentor/father-figure, that's entirely in keeping with everything we've seen from him. Tony made this decision to enlist a 15 year old kid with a bright future ahead of him into the train-wreck of ego and poor decisions that was Civil War and then in the aftermath ignored the clear effect that it was having on Peter by emotionally and physically distancing himself from him until Peter's actions required him to appear.

His response at that point was to take the suit, which among other things was Tony's symbolic and physical representation of his responsibility over Peter and his actions. Then when Peter took down the Vulture and resolved something that would have personally embarrassed him he 180'd into a full Avenger's roll-out even though his initial stance was really the right one all along. While being a Superhero is laudable and clearly in his future - Peter should be a kid who worries about things like who he takes to Homecoming Dance and not Thanos - had Tony communicated with Peter openly and honestly the majority of the movie's conflict would have been avoided for the most part... which goes back to the beginning point, we all knew he was going to be pretty crap at his.

I do really like the callback with Tony's own arc with regards to "If you're nothing without the suit you shouldn't have it", it's the kind of layering you can get from having Robert Downey Jr. there.

[Mauve Shirt]

I wasn't disappointed because I had no expectations, but despite some funny moments Homecoming was pretty meh. B- MCU movie, C Spider-Man movie.

[Bartmanhomer]

I hope the sequel will be just as good as Homecoming. I'm looking forward for that movie.

[Kato]

I also saw the movie yesterday and liked it a lot. I guess no need to repeat all the praise people have said again and again (like the "reveal" which made my theater gasp as well) or the second after credit scene.. Bastards.
There's really hardly anything I feel like complaining about.. Although..
I'm never one of the people who have an issue with this but... Flash's casting felt really wrong. Maybe because in my mind he's that epitome of the blond, muscular jock. Or more recently heroic space knight flash. Maybe a more flash-like other actor could have worked but as it was.. Also, he felt totally unnecessary to the script.

Sometimes it felt slightly too comedic, e.g most things with Karen.
And it's kind of weird how he had his old suit in the final battle.

[Kitten Champion]

I also saw the movie yesterday and liked it a lot. I guess no need to repeat all the praise people have said again and again (like the "reveal" which made my theater gasp as well) or the second after credit scene.. Bastards.
There's really hardly anything I feel like complaining about.. Although..
I'm never one of the people who have an issue with this but... Flash's casting felt really wrong. Maybe because in my mind he's that epitome of the blond, muscular jock. Or more recently heroic space knight flash. Maybe a more flash-like other actor could have worked but as it was.. Also, he felt totally unnecessary to the script.

I can't help but think about Raimi and Webb's versions of Flash, pretty much being a disposable part of their early origin. The character Peter shows up to establish his changes effecting him and his personality... and nothing else

There he's as cliched as you get - even if you ignore the anachronistic nature of his existence - he didn't work in either movie franchise because Toby McGuire looked like he was in his late twenties and well past the point where high school clique inter-conflicts would be a thing anyone would be worried about while Andrew Garfield was too conventionally movie-attractive to imagine he'd suffer any real trials in a generic high school despite some fairly weak attempts to act socially awkward. Neither movie cared that much because they had the character either on the cusp of or actually out of high school for all but the very beginning of their narrative.

He was there to be punched out or dunked against, that was it.

Homecoming's Flash made sense within his context, had motivations which were shamelessly obvious, and fit the movie's need to press upon the fact that Peter was letting his normal social and academic life falter to pursue his secret dream of being an Avenger. Is he Flash in name only? Yeah, he wasn't a physically abused lower-middle-class kid who ironically cheered Spider-Man while tormenting his alter-ego that was peaking early in his life with a relatively successful high-school football career that would materialize into nothing. The only similarities are the jealousy of Peter's intelligence. That wasn't needed here though.

Now, would it be nice to have the crippled Iraq War vet turned Venom host and intergalactic Superhero? Yeah, but that wasn't going to be a thing. Not with the way Sony is going about it, and not with Marvel characterizing Peter Parker as 15 at the start of his franchise.

Sometimes it felt slightly too comedic, e.g most things with Karen

Yeah, that was somewhat overdone with the Stark tech in general. Karen was - as critics have pointed out - a work-around for the movie to have Spider-Man's characteristic internal monologues from the comics work somewhat in the cinematic space... it's a trade off.

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And it's kind of weird how he had his old suit in the final battle.

It was significant thematically and for the character arc though.

I actually think it looked kind of cool. The one we saw briefly in Civil War was pretty awful I think, but the homemade one used in the finale has a neat Scarlet Spider element to it.

[LaZodiac]

It was significant thematically and for the character arc though.

I actually think it looked kind of cool. The one we saw briefly in Civil War was pretty awful I think, but the homemade one used in the finale has a neat Scarlet Spider element to it.

You know, touching on the discussion about origin...if they did decide to do a prequel that showed how Lil' Baby Spiderman became how he is, I'd be into it if only because of the suit. While it is not the best suit, I really do actually kind of like the home made outfit in this. It's not some stream lined super suit like in the other movies, it LOOKS like a 14 year old kid put together a vaguely spider esque outfit to serve as a costume for crime fighting, and seeing it in action on the big screen was actually kind of good.

[GAZ]

First and foremost,



As for the current topic of Flash Thompson: Jocks vs Nerds isn't really a thing any more. Having Flash be a football star beating up puny Parker doesn't make sense in today's world. Doubly true for an academic magnet school like the one in this movie. It also doesn't really work in Peter's world because there is no high school kid on the face of the Earth physically capable of giving Spider-Man a wedgie or a a swirly. But if he's a psychological, social bully capable of getting the entire school to chant "Penis Parker" and laugh at Peter, that works for both the story and the modern world. Plus I like Tony Revolori.

[Starbuck_II]

Now, would it be nice to have the crippled Iraq War vet turned Venom host and intergalactic Superhero? Yeah, but that wasn't going to be a thing. Not with the way Sony is going about it, and not with Marvel characterizing Peter Parker as 15 at the start of his franchise.

They can still do that. They just have to wait 4 to 7 years so he can fight in a war.

[Lord Joeltion]

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That, and Peter saved his daughter's life. He may have "already repaid" that by giving Peter a chance to back off earlier, but I'd expect it to still be a factor in his thinking.

Toomes' motivation was a combination of greed and getting revenge on the corrupt people in power. Peter has twice saved a life that Toomes valued more than any amount of money, and demonstrated through the actions Toomes personally witnessed that Peter is not corrupt - that Peter genuinely is a hero who wants to do what is right, not what is good for himself.

Peter may have taken Toomes from a free life of riches to a life in prison, but he did it for reasons Toomes can respect, and in the process went out of his way and even risked his own life to save others - even his enemy, Toomes himself. I think Toomes recognizes that Peter doesn't deserve revenge, and has enough of a conscience to accept and act on that.

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Digging more into the Vulture's motivation, my reading was that he may regard Peter as the one who is (metaphorically, at least) taking care of his family; considering that he is now unable to do so. After all, that was his main motivation throughout his film: to take care of his family. I don't think he has already become a "true believer" of heroes, but it would make sense if the thinks Peter's deeds and heroics make the world an overall better place for everyone. If he ever returns, I would be very surprised if he turned on Peter. He would probably go against any other hero rather than him. I can see him as the conflicted anti-villain more than the plain revengeful villain. Besides, I never got the impression he held any grudge, I thought he was obviously bluffing in front of MacGargan

I think Tony doesn't really qualifies as a mentor here, and isn't supposed to. He's the guy who provides some fancy supertech toys and says "you're just a kid, stay away from anything genuinely dangerous". And the only reason he even has that role is that he's the one who recruited Peter in Civil War.

The reasons behind Civil War also fit here. It's only natural for a kid like Peter to be biased on his opinion about Stark. He is cool, he is smart, he is rich, he is a charismatic nonchalant superguy... Tony is everything Peter aspires to be on the surface. He would probably hold to his ideal of Tony until Tony himself proves how crappy he can be (if that ever happens on MCU). Exactly how it went on the comics, btw.

I'm never one of the people who have an issue with this but... Flash's casting felt really wrong. Maybe because in my mind he's that epitome of the blond, muscular jock. Or more recently heroic space knight flash. Maybe a more flash-like other actor could have worked but as it was.. Also, he felt totally unnecessary to the script.

That's exaclty my thoughts on Flash. I didn't like Michelle as "Mary Jane"; but I really liked her performance and cast as an OC for the film. Flash on the other hand... here's the thing.

I don't think Flash's role is supposed to be just "da jock" or "da bully" for Peter. Even in Ultimate SM, he was bullied by everyone. On the greater picture of things, Flash is supposed to be (one of) the reasons Peter isn't an overconfident smartass, despite becoming an overconfident smartass as Spiderman later on. Flash is supposed to be his first "mini-Boss" in his life, his first unbeatable rival... Flash is supposed to have everything Peter wishes before he becomes super himself. That's the real reason a character like Flash was needed for a character like Spiderman in the comics. He, very much like Ben (but not as much) is supposed to be a device for character building.

But in homecoming? He was simply his "jealous neighbour". He was downplayed so low on the buttmonkey scale that he unadvertly became Peter's Frank Grimes.

Spoiler: "Grimey" Grimes - BFF

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And... maybe it is more "in tone" for the direction of the movie, but his purpose on the big story of Peter was totally broken, making him purposeless in the long run. Which is sad, because I liked most of Flash Tompson's depictions in the comics.

As for the current topic of Flash Thompson: Jocks vs Nerds isn't really a thing any more. Having Flash be a football star beating up puny Parker doesn't make sense in today's world. Doubly true for an academic magnet school like the one in this movie. It also doesn't really work in Peter's world because there is no high school kid on the face of the Earth physically capable of giving Spider-Man a wedgie or a a swirly. But if he's a psychological, social bully capable of getting the entire school to chant "Penis Parker" and laugh at Peter, that works for both the story and the modern world. Plus I like Tony Revolori.

The problem is this Flash never shown to be even "on par" with Peter in any sense. He was constantly reminded by professors and students that he was second to Peter forever. Like, all the ****ing time!

Spoiler: "Karma" did too

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Even Spiderman stole HIS car. That's one big finger life is givin him, even if he doesn't know it was Peter again.

Like, really, I never felt the "Penis Parker" scene was a **** (pun) move of him... I was literally thinking "My God... he finally succeded at one thing in his life. And it's calling names. Oh, poor thing..."

Really, I think Flash should deserve a better depiction. Not as a jock or Jerkass Supremacist. But at least he should make Peter feel jealous of him, not truly sorry for him. I felt sorry for him, and I didn't even liked the actor!

[LaZodiac]

They basically outright say they won because Flash was there. The only reason he's under Peter is because Peter's a good and nice boy, whereas Flash is cocky and full of himself. That's the difference.

[Dr.Samurai]

On the topic of Flash in this movie; he was a lame character. No reason to be there.

[Yanecky]

I really liked the film! Especially the Vulture and I wish there was more of him. Micheal Keaton, plus the script, really made the Vulture into a fearsome badass, not the funny old man I rememebered from the comic books I read back in the 90s. I also kinda like the idea of AI in the suit instead of Spider-sense. It gets rid of the stupid "talking to yourself" which works fine in comic books, but in films - not so much.

[Tyndmyr]

On the topic of Flash in this movie; he was a lame character. No reason to be there.

Yeah. You could ditch him entirely from the movie, and it'd change very little. Peter's relationship to his team is still similar, his school relationships are still similar...Flash is just without any purpose. He doesn't pose an actual obstacle to Peter in any regard.

Agreed also that the heroic arc w/regard to Stark is kind of...odd. There's a lack of growth. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense that Stark is pretty bad at things, but narratively, very little changes about spiderman or stark. The conflict between them just exists, and then goes away. It's odd.

Also, Captain America promotional videos were...I dunno? Seems like an odd way to use Cap as the butt of a joke.

Now, don't get me wrong, the movie was quite enjoyable overall, mostly because the Vulture is freaking amazing, but the parts of the movie that didn't involve the Spidey/Vulture relationship were generally less good than the parts that did.