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Thread: Understanding Apocalypse World
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2018-10-25, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
"if you do it, you do it."
- p. 10
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2018-10-25, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I think it's important to reinforce that rolls are risky and lead to consequences, but the negative consequences generally aren't horrific, and the MC isn't supposed to hit you with major gotcha moments for small rolls.
I feel like D&D players sometimes develop a risk-averse turtle method of play, which doesn't benefit AW.
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2018-10-27, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I think it is because D&D supports only (individually) meaningless failures and severe failures. Missing an attack roll doesn't mean much. Missing a stealth roll cuts of any hope of being sneaky for the rest of the section more often than not. Powered by the Apocalypse doesn't have meaningless failures, but a lot of failures aren't nearly as severe. Maybe stealth wasn't the best example, because loosing there is often pretty bad.
The other big one I've seen is "there is no button". It has a few flavours, one is an extreme version of "I roll Diplomacy" in that people try to reference a move without explaining what they are doing. It does happen in other system (ex. D&D Diplomacy) but I've seen this come up in combat situations which are not that abstract. We got to know what you are doing during this fight. The other flavour is I have seen is someone once asked how to do something in a game, despite the fact it was something that could just happen to a character. There is a kind of reversal, Powered by the Apocalypse uses "if this happens, use these rules" opposed to "use these rule to make this happen".
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2018-10-29, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Hi folks, first post here. I'm a big PbtA fan and love to talk about it. My fave games are Apocalypse World, Sagas of the Icelanders and Undying. With Cartel apparently shaping up to join em.
@Yora, you could take a look at Nerdwerds blog for all existing custom playbooks in the webz. They could give you some inspiration. Google for it (for some reason this board don't let me link a website until I make at least 10 posts).Last edited by Silva; 2018-10-29 at 11:26 AM.
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2018-10-29, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
- Gender
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2018-10-29, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2017
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2018-10-30, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I agree it's not one of the best moves because it's kind of cryptic and is easily avoided if the Chopper know what he's doing. On the other hand, it does promote the Chopper blurb (of an unstable leadership position) in a way.
Remember you don't need to roll for it at every order you balk at the pack, just when it contradicts their instincts or goals. So,
"We're low on booze, let's hit that caravan we saw earlier to refill"
"We've been hired to kick [insert name] ass. Let's go".
"Deadeye, cover our backs. Fidel and China, come with me. Jojo, you worthless *****, you stay here."
..are probably ok and won't ask for a roll. Now,
"We must raid that depot, so I get even with a dude I owe to. Half the loot goes to him. Don't ask."
"Take your hands off from her. This one is mine".
"No looting this time. We're just sending a message".
...would probably ask for the roll. I think it works best when the MC asks for the name of a couple prominent members and make them speak for the pack, with strong necessities and personalities. This helps to create internal conflict in the pack and keep the Alpha from maneuvering for not rolling the move at all (which used to happen with our games' Chopper, that rascal haha).Last edited by Silva; 2018-10-30 at 11:21 AM.
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2018-11-04, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Places are a great fit for unique custom moves.
When you methodically move forward in the Castle of Doom, roll +Cool. On a 10+, choose 3. On a 7-9, choose 2.
- You circumvent the traps.
- You make no noises.
- You don't run into any inhabitants.
- You find a secret passage or compartment.
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2018-11-05, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
It also depends on how much emphasis you want to give to the compound. Layouts are fine, but should be constructed with an eye towards locations as nexi of conflict. You want to think about the flashpoints of the infiltration, like maybe there's the gate, the armory, the confrontation in the throne room.
Custom moves are neat, but it's also important to just use the details of the location as a contrast.
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2018-11-05, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I think in practice, most custom moves are simply preparing what a 7-9 means for things that players are likely to try. If you can expect someone to do it, it's better than having to make it up on the spot.
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2018-11-08, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Yeah, and they can also be used to build up mini-economies within the game, with moves that react to one another.
Though, my favorite custom moves are the ones that aren't 10+/7-9/miss moves. There's a lot of potential with moves that just tweak the rules. When you wield the Pearl Rifle, you may Go Aggro with Hot.
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2018-11-09, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I'm working on a Hunter class: "When you go aggro or sucker someone who is not actively watched, you don't attract any attention from people nearby".
The downside is that going aggro might not completely incapactate the NPC, and if you keep fighting it does make noise.
Also: "When you act under fire because you're threatened by a wild animal, roll +sharp instead of +cool.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2018-11-09, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Man, those are cool moves, especially the first one. That's a ton of flavor and a really useful ability.
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2018-11-11, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
There is a lot of potential and then of course a lot of potential to mess things up. I mean that is true of any rule but there are a particular set of pit-falls. Now most Powered by the Apocalypse systems I have seen have avoided them but I think they are there anyways, let me know if you disagree.
The simplest one is building up too many stat substitute. The basic options in Powered by the Apocalypse are good enough that consistent hits or strong hits is actually a big deal. Stat boosts are too slow, and your starting stats to low, for them to be a real issue. Using stat substitutions can shorten that process though.
The other is the force cage problem. Which comes from a long debate about whether or not force cage was a good spell. The basic idea is does it add an interesting option or does it shut down interesting situations by providing an uninteresting pre-packaged solution or with pre-packaged counters. I suppose that whether any ability does that might be subjective. The force cage debate was inconclusive.
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2018-11-11, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Being able to roll +3 is huge. It gives you only an 8% chance to fail, and a 58% chance to get a 10+. Letting players substitute their best stat for a basic move is a very considerable game changer, not just a little neat adjustment.
We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2018-11-23, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Looking again into Dungeon World, I found that one major shortcoming that people see is the lack of conflict between characters, compared to Apocalypse World and other games.
How exactly does AW encourage conflict between players?We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2018-11-23, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I wouldn't say it's a shortcoming, Yora, as Dungeon World operates in a more conventional "adventuring-party" mold where PvP is not really necessary. But I find it puts DW on a step below AW because of that, as the "frenemies" aspect of the PbtA engine is part of what makes it shine, in my opinion. Without this aspect, gems like Monsterhearts, Sagas of the Icelanders and Urban Shadows would've never happened, for example.
Through a structure of play that it builds specifically for that, which have a directive part (basically textual "advice") and a procedural one (the actual rules). In short, the book instructs the GM to create an environment of scarcity and high pressure on the players, by means of the Agenda-Principles-GM moves and also techniques like PC-NPC-PC triangles, NPCs with strong basic needs pushing at the PCs (even their own "allies" like gangs, followers, etc), Fronts with countdown clocks announcing future calamities, etc. While the rules (playbooks' starting Hx assignment, Hx flow, Stats highlights, Moves like Read a Person, Seduce or Manipulate, Go Aggro, Sex moves, etc) complement that by purposefully pushing interactions into loaded territory.
So you just woke up and Bish (NPC) is here asking for that money you owe him since forever, but now he won't accept excuses, he says, and if you don't hand it over he'll talk to a friend - Cybelle, that weird chick that never shows her face (you know, the Brainer player that you assigned a bad Hx in first session?) to "incentivize" you to give the money (Cybelle player *grins*). Then you remember you're totally broken and hungry even, and would have to ask help from some of these modafack*s around. Well, there's Nero the Operator (another player, with a neutral Hx to you) but he is greedy as f*ck and will probably charge my soul as interest. Or, wait, there's my friend Lucy (the Angel player, whom actually have a positive Hx with you) That's it, she will help me! "Hey Lucy my girl! How are you? You know, I need a hand with something....." GM: Wait, are you just asking or you're trying to manipulate her? Player: "Hmmm I do have a nice Hot stat...", GM: "So you're manipulating her, the only friend you have in this crapsack place?" Player: "Sorry, I can't risk or I'll be mindraped by that freak, Cibelle. Yeah, I'm manipulating her". Lucy's player: "Oh I can't believe it!". GM: "Okay, roll the dice". And things snowball from there.
Edit: Notice though, that the kind of PvP AW proposes is not a "deathmatch free for all" like, say, Paranoia or Shinobigami, it's more like a ensemble cast TV series (Walking Dead, Firefly) where protagonists are supposed to fight between themselves now and then but ultimately join forces to defend common interests (the community, the water source, etc).Last edited by Silva; 2018-11-24 at 06:23 AM.
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2018-11-23, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Oh and, I see you had a question about AW combat in first page. You probably solved it already, but I would love to let this here anyway...
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre....649053/page-3
It's an example of combat in AW by Lumpley (Vincent Baker, AW's author) that's pretty instructional and shows how tactical it can get.Last edited by Silva; 2018-11-24 at 06:18 AM.
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2018-11-24, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2009
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- Germany
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
The impression that I get is that it's not actually the mechanics that are nudging players into such directions. It's the presentation of the setting that that shows readers certain interesting situations and tells them that in an Apocalypse World game, acting in that way is entirely acceptible and totally cool.
What I see is an encouragement to go with a fresh style of play, but it doesn't seem that it's something that follows as a consequence of the rules.We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.
Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
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2018-11-24, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
I actually think Powered by the Apocalypse is mechanically suited to PvP.* The rules seem to be built around PCs going against NPCs (ex. no opposed roles anywhere in the system) and then sort of adapted to handle PCs going against each other. Because one person roles and that sets the results of the fight. I think AW2 has made some of the direct conflicts a bit better at both players rolling and combining the results.
Of course I have never played straight AW1/2, just other Powered by the Apocalypse systems. Most of them did an all right job with it, but there are moments where the other player, usually the defender, has to go and take the results of the other player's roles without their character's abilities effecting it much. So I think it is mostly the fiction and the general attitude the game presents that make it work pretty well.
* Actually if I am going to be really pedantic and draw a line between player vs. player and player character vs. player character, which I will just in this aside, I don't think it does that so well either. The rules are loose enough if you want to really test your skills each other... there is a lot of wiggle room and things may very much be down to how the MC decides how to call and resolve moves.
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2018-11-24, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Originally Posted by Yora
"There's a million ways to GM games. Apocalypse World asks for one in specific. No matter what you do, follow this as rules.... and I'm not ****ing around here"
(It actually says that )
See it this way: the mechanics don't necessarily nudge the players to be "frenemies", but if they do not end up as frenemies, a fair bit of those mechanics stop making sense, specially Hx, playbooks relations setup, Stats highlight, etc.
Makes sense?Last edited by Silva; 2018-11-25 at 06:09 AM.
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2019-04-01, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
Re: Understanding Apocalypse World
Prepping for a 2nd edition game of AW. My group was wary of the changes until now but we decided to try it anyway. Which made me re-read this thread and stumble with this...
I've only read it now, and what an amazing description Yora! I love the Battlebabe. It's one of the best "fiction archetypes in game form" I've seen.