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    Default Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes entry?

    In lots of fiction, mostly soft science fiction, one sees files, data, uploaded brains, etc. that may be transferred between computers and storage media, but through plot devices can never be copied, backed up, or otherwise exist in two storage locations simultaneously.

    Does this trope have a tvtropes page and/or a standardized name?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    I could swear I saw "We Will Not Have Control-C in the Future", but it must have been renamed or something.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    I could swear I saw "We Will Not Have Control-C in the Future", but it must have been renamed or something.
    Here's an index of the "We Will [...] in the Future" tropes:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...dexInTheFuture

    At a quick glance, I don't see anything like this, but I could have missed it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Feels like it could be a subtrope of 'No Plans No Prototype No Backup', with the file itself being the unique and un-copy-able McGuffin.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Feels like it could be a subtrope of 'No Plans No Prototype No Backup', with the file itself being the unique and un-copy-able McGuffin.
    It has some common elements, but the trope I am thinking of doesn't fit within the Venn diagram circle of "No Plans No Prototype No Backup."

    It's often not a device or a MacGuffin, and sometimes is an important character in a story. A character's personality as a data file, that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    It's often not a device or a MacGuffin, and sometimes is an important character in a story. A character's personality as a data file, that is.
    You mean like someone's ghost?
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    You mean like someone's ghost?
    If you're using the term from the Ghost in the Shell universe, then yes, similar to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Another good example would be the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager. He's never copied. He's always downloaded, and on the show that always means that he leaves one storage medium for another. When he's in his mobile dohicky, he's not on the ship's computer systems.

    It's a very common theme in Star trek, but I didn't see a trope for it on the pages I looked at. Downloading/uploading is nearly always the same as moving it from one place to another instead of transmitting a copy.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    Another good example would be the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager. He's never copied. He's always downloaded, and on the show that always means that he leaves one storage medium for another. When he's in his mobile dohicky, he's not on the ship's computer systems.

    It's a very common theme in Star trek, but I didn't see a trope for it on the pages I looked at. Downloading/uploading is nearly always the same as moving it from one place to another instead of transmitting a copy.
    The Doctor was duplicated once, but the copy wasn't discovered until some(I wanna say) 300 years later in Living Witness.

    As for the actual trope, the closest that comes to mind is It Only Works Once.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    In lots of fiction, mostly soft science fiction, one sees files, data, uploaded brains, etc. that may be transferred between computers and storage media, but through plot devices can never be copied, backed up, or otherwise exist in two storage locations simultaneously.

    Does this trope have a tvtropes page and/or a standardized name?
    Remember, on the Internet, the easiest way to get information is not to ask a question, but to give the wrong answer. Create a page for "Never Can Copy", add a few examples, and some editor will be along to merge it into the correct page shortly.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Remember, on the Internet, the easiest way to get information is not to ask a question, but to give the wrong answer. Create a page for "Never Can Copy", add a few examples, and some editor will be along to merge it into the correct page shortly.
    Like in real life itself, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Remember, on the Internet, the easiest way to get information is not to ask a question, but to give the wrong answer. Create a page for "Never Can Copy", add a few examples, and some editor will be along to merge it into the correct page shortly.
    Plus it would serve as an example of itself. "This entry is a duplicate of another file, and must therefore cease to be."
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    By the way, I seem to vaguely remember there was a place in tvtropes where you could ask if a trope already existed or not. That might be a good place to cross-post this thread, if it is still around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Just so! Head over to "You Know, That Thing Where..." and they'll help out.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    I think what you are thinking of actually falls fairly close to "No Plans No Prototype No Backup."

    You are talking about examples of data not being copiable, even (or perhaps especially) when said data is a character.

    For specific cases where a data forms a mind and is thus unique, I can think of that logic specifically being called out in one or two sci-fi. Red v Blue, has an entire story arc around their AI specifically not being replicable.

    When the data isn't a character, it really is just "No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup." The named trope is all about the data either being uncopiable or just not being copied.

    In fact "No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup" is in many ways wider, because it applies even to physical objects and anything that could have plans, prototypes or backups (which includes, in Sci-Fi actual characters)!

    So the already mentioned trope actually would fit "uncopiable" or "no control-C in the future" right into it.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post

    In fact "No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup" is in many ways wider,
    That "wideness" makes it unsatisfying for me. I would not wish to use use such a broad trope to refer specifically to this in literature or conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harnel View Post
    where is the atropal? and does it have a listed LA?

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Mass Effect has this too; the codex states that if you try and copy an AI, infinitesimal runtime changes in their "quantum blue box" will change their personality, making it too risky to do as you'll end up with a brand new individual. Thus TIM never kept any backups of EDI and had to build a new one (Eva) from scratch when EDI went rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    Plus it would serve as an example of itself. "This entry is a duplicate of another file, and must therefore cease to be."
    Brilliant!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    I mean, at the very least We Will Not Have Ctrl-C in the Future can be a SUBTROPE of No Plans No Prototype No Backup!
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    This always slightly bugged me about Star Wars. Why do the Rebels keep only one copy of the Death Star plans? I mean, not keeping it in Tantive IV's data banks is sensible for plausible-deniability reasons, but why couldn't they have just, say, broadcasted it for everyone on the Holonet, or made a dozen copies to be delivered by various ships, or something? It's not like there's anybody they don't want to have it that doesn't already have it.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Malimar View Post
    This always slightly bugged me about Star Wars. Why do the Rebels keep only one copy of the Death Star plans? I mean, not keeping it in Tantive IV's data banks is sensible for plausible-deniability reasons, but why couldn't they have just, say, broadcasted it for everyone on the Holonet, or made a dozen copies to be delivered by various ships, or something? It's not like there's anybody they don't want to have it that doesn't already have it.
    Did you watch Rogue One? That movie basically ends with the start of A New Hope. If you watch them back to back, it's more of a cut than a new movie. They do copy the plans, and then the ship the original was on is blown up. Then it's on the oversized SD card that barely gets onto the Tantive IV, which speeds off pursued by Vader's Star Destroyer. There literally wasn't time to make another copy. Darth Vader is not a patient man when you're stealing Imperial secrets. Copying a file is easy. Copying it with a Dark Lord of the Sith breathing down your neck... less so. Especially when he's in that mood and has a lightsaber.

    When R2 and C3PO crash on Tattooine, the Rebels have had a copy of those plans for about... an hour, tops. On various ships that are now destroyed or captured. If there was a copy, the Empire has it now. Except for one.

    And yes, I am aware that this is an example of how it's easier to get an answer to a question by stating something and waiting for someone to correct you. I totally fell for that just now.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    By the way, I seem to vaguely remember there was a place in tvtropes where you could ask if a trope already existed or not. That might be a good place to cross-post this thread, if it is still around.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    You mean like someone's ghost?
    Quote Originally Posted by gomipile View Post
    If you're using the term from the Ghost in the Shell universe, then yes, similar to that.
    So in the case of the general Ghost in the Shell Universe you can't seem to have a human ghost without having the brainstem included to make it all alive. You can cyberize the outer lobes, the thalamus, etc but not the brain stem. Quoting from wikipedia

    • Minimal cyberization, for the purposes of external memory and wireless communication, leaving the brain itself essentially identical to its biological form. Nano-scale interfaces are placed in the cerebellar region, permitting a pluggable interface, and allowing prosthetic parts to be upgraded. Physical improvements are limited to a very thin titanium shell around the cortex.
    • Partial cyberization, replacing larger parts of the cortex with nanotechnological interfaces and computational elements. However, the autonomic systems of the brain remain intact, which is necessary to retain the "ghost" (ゴースト gōsuto) (the term used in the series to refer to the soul).
    • Full cyberization, in some extreme cases of disease or accident, in which as much as 97.5% of the original brain is replaced with artificial elements.
    That said in the various GITS continues we may be at a tipping point where AI has advanced to the point it is no different to outsiders than a human's ghost, and maybe we can move past needing the brainstem, or substituting one person's brain stem for another (aka cloning) while keeping the vast majority of the person the same due to memories, experiences, the frontal lobe functions, etc being handled via 97.5% artificial human brain in the full cyberization subjects.

    So understand when they are saying "let me make a full backup of you" such as a section 9 member before you do a barrier dive the whole point is to retain as much of the memories in case we need to go in and retrieve your brainstem, but as long as your brainstem is good we can revive you, and if we have a full backup of your memories and such you would have very little of your essence harmed.

    Of course this is also in the GITS anime, the first season why Cyberbrain Sclerosis was such a big deal. For some reason in some humans the cyberbrain creation process was causing the hardening and then death of the remaining biological tissue and no one could understand why. Transferring your data from one cyberbrain to another will not stop you from dieing for what is actually dying is the brainstem and that can't be replicated.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    I don't quite get the point of what the OP wants anymore. Do we want to talk about the trope of the uncopiability of a person/mind, or just of important data to float around lack a backup.


    If the one, it seems like we are simply speaking about the concept of the uniqueness of the person, preserved in sci-fi scenarios which problematicize the concept.

    The concept that there is something about an individual: a mind, soul, persona, self, that is uniquely them, and therefore cannot be simply copied, is nothing new and not so much a trope as a fundamental philosophic concept of what it means to be a person or have a mind.

    Reducing "that unique mind" to a trope, has to fall under some sort of rules about reducing philosophical concepts into TV tropes. Not sure what those rules are, but I know they must have them!

    If we are just talking about data remarkably not getting copied and being stuck on that one unique McGuffiny harddisk as in Star Wars. I don't see the difference between "plan, no prototype, no backup," which is just what the concept is, when you consider data doesn't have to be just computer code and can also exist in the forms of plans, prototypes and the machines themselves.

    By the way, Rogue One, is totally an after-the-fact retcon, created to make a good movie as well as perfectly fill the obvious plot holes that didn't both George Lucas in writing A New Hope. Lucas left the question of how the plans ended up in R2D2 and nowhere else alone for 35 years.

    Of all the ways the plans could have been stolen and ended up on the Tantive IV, a doomed ensemble of misfits backedup by the rebel fleet with a full-on space & land battle, was probably not high on anybodies list.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The concept that there is something about an individual: a mind, soul, persona, self, that is uniquely them, and therefore cannot be simply copied, is nothing new and not so much a trope as a fundamental philosophic concept of what it means to be a person or have a mind.

    Reducing "that unique mind" to a trope, has to fall under some sort of rules about reducing philosophical concepts into TV tropes. Not sure what those rules are, but I know they must have them!
    I think the "trope" in this case is not "sapient beings have something that could be considered a soul." (I agree that is a philosophy rather than a trope.) Rather, I think the trope being discussed here is the notion of copying a personality, which is at least for now purely in the realms of sci-fi and fantasy. Think about it - fully realized AI and cloning sapient beings are things that don't currently exist, therefore (at least for now) they reside totally within our imaginations. Being an imaginary concept, there is no concrete reason why so many of of our imaginations would conclude that both of these work the same way most of the time - i.e. that copying an AI or cloning a person is either not possible at all, or that doing so has negative consequences, most notable of which is that the personality of the thing you're copying will change for the worse. Yet almost universally, authors have concluded that will be the result (outside of comedic works anyway) and it's worth examining why.

    What it boils down to is a variant of Came Back Wrong, except instead of resurrecting {being} you're duplicating it or backing it up while it's alive. I would guess that they have similar roots - namely that such copying or rezzing amounts to creating life, something that humans are instilled to see as an act of hubris.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by McNum View Post
    Copying a file is easy. Copying it with a Dark Lord of the Sith breathing down your neck... less so. Especially when he's in that mood and has a lightsaber.
    It's made even harder when you are using 1970's era tape drive technology. Keep in mind that while the technology in Star Wars is pretty awesome, what with their lightsabers and their holograms, it's also a throwback to our history.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    I don't quite get the point of what the OP wants anymore. Do we want to talk about the trope of the uncopiability of a person/mind, or just of important data to float around lack a backup.


    If the one, it seems like we are simply speaking about the concept of the uniqueness of the person, preserved in sci-fi scenarios which problematicize the concept.

    The concept that there is something about an individual: a mind, soul, persona, self, that is uniquely them, and therefore cannot be simply copied, is nothing new and not so much a trope as a fundamental philosophic concept of what it means to be a person or have a mind.

    Reducing "that unique mind" to a trope, has to fall under some sort of rules about reducing philosophical concepts into TV tropes. Not sure what those rules are, but I know they must have them!

    If we are just talking about data remarkably not getting copied and being stuck on that one unique McGuffiny harddisk as in Star Wars. I don't see the difference between "plan, no prototype, no backup," which is just what the concept is, when you consider data doesn't have to be just computer code and can also exist in the forms of plans, prototypes and the machines themselves.
    The thing with No Plan, No Prototype, No Backup is that it's very object centric. It refers to stuff which for one reason or other no longer has or ever had plans, back up or etc. And the OP doesn't specifically mean things like uniqueness of a "soul", that's someone else trying to explain the concept of unique data. I think what we are dealing with here is, "information with a 'soul'". Information that can only exist in one place at a time. Oooh... "Highlander Data (There Can Be Only One... Copy)", if I was that kind of person I'd be adding it to tropes :P.
    For humans, minds, AI etc this is a philosophical question (and where it intersect with OPs question, it's the excuse" for why if minds are only 1s and 0s can't they be copied then). For non-sentient data it's not so much. After all 1s and 0s don't care whether it's a tapeplayer, CD or cloudstorage. But for this "trope" it matters, there's only one set of data. I get what the OP is angling for, but no idea if it is a trope or how it would fall vis a vis others.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Being an imaginary concept, there is no concrete reason why so many of of our imaginations would conclude that both of these work the same way most of the time - i.e. that copying an AI or cloning a person is either not possible at all, or that doing so has negative consequences, most notable of which is that the personality of the thing you're copying will change for the worse. Yet almost universally, authors have concluded that will be the result (outside of comedic works anyway) and it's worth examining why.
    I've always figured it was partly an ego thing and partly a fear thing.

    Truly copy a human or an AI character that passes as human-level, and you can show they're not irreplaceable. Not unique. Trivial. You have demonstrated that there's some precise method to build a being that is "human". We know everything there is to know about consciousness and the human mind, and it's all physical processes. "We" as in, you know, the people in the fictional universe.

    People prefer to have their self-worth and their preconceptions about reality verified. Both in day-to-day life and in their fantasies. To show things as otherwise might have fridge horror implications and I think authors tend to avoid such domains if it is not intentional. This is something that lurks under the surface of that idea, and I think it makes some people uncomfortable to consider the notion.

    Fear of the cosmic variety is the reason, in other words.
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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    The thing with No Plan, No Prototype, No Backup is that it's very object centric. It refers to stuff which for one reason or other no longer has or ever had plans, back up or etc.
    Exactly, the data in question is being treated precisely like an object. Not just any object either, a unique object of plot import.

    Such unique objects, MacGuffins and other plot devices, are often endowed with great significant to the story, acquiring a dimension of importance and even magic like powers (if they aren't explicitly magic).

    In the real world, few objects have such uniqueness or significance or importance and a big reason for this is because, if something is important, copies exist.

    Data being made unique, is just one example of this broad story-telling trend. Uniquely existing data likely exists in this way because has plot-import and it forces the protagonists to go after it/defend it/destroy it just like other unique plot-significant objects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    What it boils down to is a variant of Came Back Wrong, except instead of resurrecting {being} you're duplicating it or backing it up while it's alive. I would guess that they have similar roots - namely that such copying or rezzing amounts to creating life, something that humans are instilled to see as an act of hubris.
    I don't know if humans are instilled into seeing creating life as an act of hubris....

    However, since Frankenstein its a common theme.

    However, creating a perfect copy is uncanny and philosophically troubling in ways merely creating a life is not...

    Help here?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    I've always figured it was partly an ego thing and partly a fear thing.

    Truly copy a human or an AI character that passes as human-level, and you can show they're not irreplaceable. Not unique. Trivial. You have demonstrated that there's some precise method to build a being that is "human". We know everything there is to know about consciousness and the human mind, and it's all physical processes. "We" as in, you know, the people in the fictional universe.

    People prefer to have their self-worth and their preconceptions about reality verified. Both in day-to-day life and in their fantasies. To show things as otherwise might have fridge horror implications and I think authors tend to avoid such domains if it is not intentional. This is something that lurks under the surface of that idea, and I think it makes some people uncomfortable to consider the notion.

    Fear of the cosmic variety is the reason, in other words.
    I didn't know fridge horror is was a trope but yes. There is something very disturbing about the idea that you can take a person, clone them, and then everything is the same and things are fine.

    How many stories can you give off the top of your head where a character gets cloned for rather mundane utilitarian reasons and it works without going horrifically wrong or otherwise setting off plot bombs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
    The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.

    Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    On the subject of Frankenstein. Frankenstein is not a horror story because it created life, it is a story about the hubris of thinking creating life is only about its creation and not the molding and creating a societal structure in which your integrate the life you created into the world as a whole.

    Aka it is the story about a father who abandons his children. A father / mother who does not act like a mammal but more like an insect or reptile. Mammals need nurturing, they literally need their mother's milk, they need imprinting, they need to learn skills, and only then are they able to assemble an identity and besides assembling an identity they can interact with the world.

    -----

    Now on the subject of stories about clones is that often clone stories assume similar themes and they assume that the clone will maintain the original identity and so on, but identity is not just about your origin story but identity is continuously recreated based off the environment. This video which talks about some of the themes of Ghost and the Shell 1995 movie, and how lots of the themes are related to Michel Foucault ideas about society, identity, history of ideas, etc.

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    Default Re: Does the "file that can be transferred, but not copied" trope have a tvtropes ent

    It seems perfectly clear to me what gomipile is talking about. Sometimes in a story there will exist a type of data that cannot be non-destructively copied, and yet can be transferred, even though this obviously defies how copying information normally works.

    As a totally non-science fiction example, look at how spells generally work in the 3rd Edition of D&D (specified because I'm not sure how different things are in other editions). Prepare a spell from a scroll and it disappears from the scroll. Write a prepared spell on a scroll and it disappears from your mind. Cast a spell -- thereby "writing it onto reality", as it were -- and it disappears from wherever you cast it from, whether your mind or a scroll.

    Being able to prepare spells out of spellbooks without erasing them is a special exception. That's why spellbook ink is so expensive; it's a valuable alchemical substance that affixes spells to pages so that they don't disappear when copied, as is normally the case for magical information.

    We're not just talking about a single file, object, or character, because there's an entire category of data that can normally only be transferred. This may serve primarily as a justification as to why an important object or character can't be duplicated, but it's equally possible that no such object or character exists.

    In D&D, you have the excuse that "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain $#!7." In sci-fi, you can talk about irreproducable quantum states. But the Cosmos-Enforced Copy Protection rather obviously was written into the setting for story purposes, not because it's the most plausible scenario; it isn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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