Erfworld 71, page 65

[JazzManJim]

Jillian has exactly enough move to reach Ansom and save him. Now she knows were the dwagons are, but I think it's now a toss up: Save Ansom, or save his army/seige units? She probably does not have enough move to do both, and people will be unhappy with her no matter what she chooses.

Indeed.

She should never have left. Now, Webinar and Dora are pretty much sitting ducks for the dwagons making the return trip. There's no way they can stand up to the entire flight of dwagons hitting them all at once.

[ag30476]

Indeed.

She should never have left. Now, Webinar and Dora are pretty much sitting ducks for the dwagons making the return trip. There's no way they can stand up to the entire flight of dwagons hitting them all at once.

That depends on how many dwagons Webinar and his group can take out in defense. Parson can't afford to trade down given that he has the less forces.

[Chewy]

so do they live or die? My moneys on those gryphons and warlords dying.

[Scientivore]

Some things that we learned from this page:

• The archons have names and can see Thinkamancy spells.
• Jillian is under a persistent spell, not just psychological conditioning.
• You can apparently see farther over water than over heavy forest.
• Jillian was planning for them to "mount the three warlords." The jokes practically write themselves!
• Dwagons are worth a lot of points. Even split between three archons, four warlords and four gwiffons, the archons could expect to level from their share of the XP from croaking six dwagons.
• The archons are just being diligent in their duties, not dismissive of dwagons' difficulty. Even with three more warlords being added to their stack in Jillian's plan, they assumed that they wouldn't stop to croak the six full-strength dwagons on their way to the column.

And I still can't predict what's going to happen next!

[Moral Wiz]

Hmm.

Look at the Archon, pannel before last. She dosn't exactly look happy. Could it be possible that Ansom's orders said "Wounded Dwagons" and didn't give numbers.

We have no way to know their relitive combat power, but if they are not up to the job (which is possible, as Dwagons seem to be Stanly's strongest unit.) this can still work for Parson. If they can't win for certian, the plan Jillian sugested still stands.

This comes in when Jill starts talking about how Ansom's high ideals (she is stressing this in his favor, she is attracted to him. remember?). The irony of him sending them on such a high risk mission, makes it possible.

[ShiningTed]

Forgot to mention what a great comic this is Lots of info, but keeps up the tension. Can't wait for the next one!

One small problem I have had for several panels: why didn't they use the bats to pinpoint the dwagons, when they knew that Jillian had limited move? I know this would have had major plots implications (we can see that this very minute) but it would have only cost one bat.

[fractal]

Look at the Archon, pannel before last. She dosn't exactly look happy. Could it be possible that Ansom's orders said "Wounded Dwagons" and didn't give numbers.

We have no way to know their relitive combat power, but if they are not up to the job (which is possible, as Dwagons seem to be Stanly's strongest unit.) this can still work for Parson. If they can't win for certian, the plan Jillian sugested still stands.

So, Jillian and the Archons may or may not be able to take out the wounded dragons. However, we know that the power of the Archons is definitely finite; Ansom said that even together with his stack, they would only be an even match for the full flight of dragons.

Therefore, why aren't Charlie and his Archons worried that they might be croaked, if not in this engagement, then in some other one? Since they're Angels, perhaps they have some ability that allows them to recover from croaking (far from the battlefield), or perhaps they can automatically teleport back to Charlie's base if they're badly wounded. Are they even real, or are they some sort of magical construct of Charlie's?

[Ink]

Perhaps the limited vision is just a bat thing. From what we saw in the batcam the bats seem to have a rather narrow field of vision. Vinny did say "just on the dwagons I could see" when he was using the bat as his eyes in the siege units, and they were in the open air then and not in the forest. Other units might be able to see just as far over forest as over water.

I'm not sure that the Archons can see Thinkamancy spells per se. If they could, why didn't they mention that Jillian was under a spell when she was arguing with Webinar over Ansom's commands? It's possible that they just possess an astute sense of perception, and as Jillian kept arguing her way into finding reasons to disobey Ansom, they began to suspect that she was under the influence of the enemy. Her insistence that the wounded dwagons weren't there probably clinched it.

[factotum]

Or it could be all the bats are out of range--they might be scattered all along the column to provide short-range warning, and with 22 move they wouldn't be able to reach.

Anyway, Parson's boops are really in the vice now. Given how annoyed Tool was at losing just three dwagons, losing 22 would result in instant disbanding for Parson. He really IS relying on Wanda's suggestion spell to get them out of trouble!

[israfel420]

I see an option no one has discussed. Why not pick up Ansom, Vinnie, and Tarfu and instead of using their move to get back to the column, turn around and hit the wounded Dwagons?

If they did that, there would be 4 warlords adding in their bonuses and that would likely turn the tide.

Otherwise if Jillian and the Archons do attack, I see the following happneing. The uncroacked warlords will direct the dwagons to defend them until none are left but the ones they ride. This will severely weaken/croak Griffons and the Archons(possibly Jillian) before they can take out those warlords. If Jillian and archons are forced to disengage(or just Jillian) before those warlords are gone, Parsaon can pull to gether the remaingin Dwagons and crush whatever is left of Jillians stack. Then Ansom has no airforce to speak of that can defend his siege and Parson's remaining Dwagons will be free to take them out and run far away to get over the lake where forest units cannot hit them. Once all the siege is gone, how will Ansom get into GK?

Answer: a vicious grueling tunnel fight. That is what I want to see happen.

[starkruzr]

Can someone explain to me what the Archons are and why they appear to be glowing flight attendants?

It seemed to me like they just showed up with no explanation.

[Glome]

I'm not sure that the Archons can see Thinkamancy spells per se. If they could, why didn't they mention that Jillian was under a spell when she was arguing with Webinar over Ansom's commands? It's possible that they just possess an astute sense of perception, and as Jillian kept arguing her way into finding reasons to disobey Ansom, they began to suspect that she was under the influence of the enemy. Her insistence that the wounded dwagons weren't there probably clinched it.

Well not all spell cast on someone are going to be bad, and it's possibly the Archons don't know whether it's a thinkamancer spell, but only can see that a spell has been cast on Jillian. Thus they didn't have any reason to complain until Jillian started jumping to illogical conclusions.

Wanda did say that Jillian wouldn't engage the dwagons even if she found them, so if she is correct here then Jillian will have to rationalize saving Ansom when the better choice is to kill the dwagons who are clearly in view which would also accomplish the same goal.

The question then becomes not so much whether Jillian will break the spell or not (it's possible, but given Wanda's power level and confidence when she usually makes realistic assessments, seems somewhat unlikely), the question remains as to how the archons will react to the change of orders when the rationalization is so far-fetched and Jillian appears to be enspelled?

[ag30476]

I see an option no one has discussed. Why not pick up Ansom, Vinnie, and Tarfu and instead of using their move to get back to the column, turn around and hit the wounded Dwagons?

That's a good option but the main question is whether Jillian will take any offensive action or whether Wanda is correct and the magical compulsion will prevent Jillian from attacking. In that case then,

Spoiler

Show

assuming Jillian runs away from the fight, will Ansom be able to attack the wounded dwagons himself, sacrificing himself and the arkenploers in exchange for the saving the siege?

Of course all of my predictions have been wrong so far...

[Midgititp]

I still think the most likely scenario involves the Archons feeling that Jillian is behaving irrationally and concluding that she is untrustworthy. At which point there may be a physical conflict between Jillian and the Archons, since Jillian may feel that they are disrespecting her. The Archons may otherwise conclude that they cannot defeat the dragons alone and may escort Jillian back to Ansom (where much hilarity will ensue).

Either way I still see it possible that the dragons will still survive through the divine (or not so much so) intervention of Wanda.

[Ikkitosen]

The Erfworld goes from strength to strength.

[Eco-Mono]

Can someone explain to me what the Archons are and why they appear to be glowing flight attendants?

It seemed to me like they just showed up with no explanation.

There's a mercenary outfit run by a mysterious man named "Charlie". Ansom paid him, he sent his mercenaries, who are parodies/references of Charlie's Angels. The flight attendant outfits make reference to that group's usually revealing costumes, as well as the fact that they are flying units.

[slb]

Even if Wanda's spell was strong, I do not see now how Jilian could NOT attack the A-dwagons.

But all is not lost, I'm pretty sure it is possible for Parson to micro-manage the fight and minimize the losses.

[DGM]

I see an option no one has discussed. Why not pick up Ansom, Vinnie, and Tarfu and instead of using their move to get back to the column, turn around and hit the wounded Dwagons?

If they did that, there would be 4 warlords adding in their bonuses and that would likely turn the tide.

But they'd be both injured and stranded, with no support from the elves or gumps. Parson might end up losing most of the dwagons and fail to get the rest of the seige, but he would nail 4 warlords (including the head of the alliance) and snag the Arkenpliers. I think Stanley would be satisfied with that deal.

[TheJustWiseSage]

If Anson and Vinnie have enough move to punch through with the bats and get to the column, do they not also have enough move (they have a few hexes left) by the sounds of it to make the lake?
Then the pliers could be used against the uncroaked warlords.

Additionally, Zandermussles might actually be in the dragon hex, but as a warlord, has the right to chose to fight the hex or retreat, after all that's what parson did with the dragons.

[DDL]

No, that only works (I believe) with fliers vs non-fliers: fliers can choose to ignore enemy non-flying units (except archers). Enemy flying units = combat whether you like it or not.

[Hecore]

A few thoughts.

1. Perhaps the reason bats couldn't see the next hex over is a property of the hex itself? For example, heavy forest squares are only visible if you're in the square itself, while open plains and water squares are visible from one hex away. It seems reasonable, and also simpler then only letting high level units or commanders get extra vision.

2. Although people may have already guessed this, I'm thinking that the Archons only see that Jillian is ensorceled, not what kind of spell she's enchanted with. I also think that it's likely that the Archons have to actually check to determine if a unit is enchanted (Detect Magic?) -- either that or they didn't think it was relevant to mention beforehand, but I feel the former is more plausible.

3. As to what Jillian will do next, I think that she will do one of two things-

A. She will say that there are simply too many wounded dwagons without the help of Webinar and his girlfriend; if only she knew beforehand! Therefore rescuing Ansom is still priority.

B. Either directly turns on the Archons or leaves on her own -- I think it very unlikely that the Dwagons will be attacked directly.

[Swodaems]

But they'd be both injured and stranded, with no support from the elves or gumps. Parson might end up losing most of the dwagons and fail to get the rest of the seige, but he would nail 4 warlords (including the head of the alliance) and snag the Arkenpliers. I think Stanley would be satisfied with that deal.

I have to contradict you on that for several reasons.
1. Vinnie called the combined might of the gwifs, the f elves, the gumps, the archons, and the 4 warlords an even fight for 43 dwagons with bonuses from 3 uncroaked warlords. If the Gwifs, archs and warlords can remove the 19 weak dwags now, along with the uncroaked warlords, I could see them as being an even fight for the remaining 24 B dwags. (Albeit said fight would go beyond even Jillian's idea of fun and there would be losses. {Based on her attitude, I assume she expected to take no losses punching thru the strong hex. That only the strong hex is established as a possibility is odd considering the board layout places both the 5 dwagon hexs the exact same number of spaces away from the column. Did anyone else noticed that and does it count as a booper? I'll go to that thread next.})
2. The group might actually be able to make it back to the center hex after taking out the dwags. The best way I see to do this is for Jillian to position herself, the archons, and the slow gwif one hex behind the wounded dwags, (by behind I mean inbetween the wounded dwags and the center hex,) and send 3 high move gwifs ahead to pick up the three warlords and return to fight. For reference, use the following information. The slow grif can only be short a maximum of 3 move of the move requirement to reach the column, as it has been implicitly stated that it can reach the center hex. (Jillian probably brought it along to fight so it is likely only short 1 or 2 move.) If it is only one move short and the 3 gwifs sent to retrive Ansom, Vinnie, and Tarfu have at least 4 more move each than it, (my logic says this required move number is likely 29 or 30, kudos and an imaginary cookie to the first person who can explain my logic to the crowd,) then all 3 Archons, 4 Warlords, and 5 Gwiffins can fight and make it back to the center. If the slow one is short 2 or 3 move or they don't have 3 gwiffins that fit the bill for the warlord's mounts, then the warlords having to resort to using their personal move is always a possibility, but you leave behind undefended gwiffins.

In short, bringing Ansom, Vinnie and Tarfu into the fight is Jillian's best option.

[SteveMB]

Look at the Archon, pannel before last. She dosn't exactly look happy. Could it be possible that Ansom's orders said "Wounded Dwagons" and didn't give numbers.

Possibly, especially given that Ansom has a guesstimate, not a hard number.

If Anson and Vinnie have enough move to punch through with the bats and get to the column, do they not also have enough move (they have a few hexes left) by the sounds of it to make the lake?

Both the column and the wounded dwagons are three hexes from Ansom's position. The catch is that if they go after the wounded dwagons, they'd then be out in the open and even more cut off then they are (i.e. separated from the forest units).

(They definitely don't have the move to hit the wounded dwagons and then return to the column. If they did, they'd have the move to leave the donut the way they came in and return to the column, and Vinny wouldn't have proposed making a run through the six-dwagon stack.)

In short, bringing Ansom, Vinnie and Tarfu into the fight is Jillian's best option.

Hmmm... she may decide that her best immediate option is telling the Archons that she's doing that, and then try to actually bring them back to the column when they're mounted up....

[SteveMB]

Hmmm... Jillian's disdainful comment about "'Noblesse oblige' and that kinda crap" might shed a bit of light on her rejection of her royal status. On the other hand, if she doesn't really disdain the concept as thoroughly as she says (or would like to believe?), reminding her that "You're a royal!" might serve to reinforce Jillian's drive to come charging to the rescue when the time comes.

The deeper you look, the more things neatly connect together. Well played.

[Fenix]

Could someone please explain me the phrase "render moot" ? Does it mean the question has been answered, or that it is not important any more or something else? Thanks.

[Glome]

Could someone please explain me the phrase "render moot" ? Does it mean the question has been answered, or that it is not important any more or something else? Thanks.

that the question is now purely academic, or of no practical importance. I know quite a few people who confuse this word with 'mute' for some reason.

[DeathQuaker]

End of Gobwin Knob. End of Parson. End of strip.

All in all, this was a bad move on the author's part.

Erm.... you do realize we are probably only halfway through the story, if that? Do you honestly think the author just decided to give up and get rid of the protagonist halfway through?

We are, essentially, reading what is planned to be a BOOK at a rate of 1-2 pages a week. If you were reading... oh, let's say... Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (doesn't matter if you don't like Harry Potter; this is hypothetical and I'm just picking a reference a lot of people will get) and the last page you finished reading was in the first quarter, and ends with "And the Dementors prepared to devour Harry and Dudley's soul..."

Would you throw the book on the floor in disgust, declare that NO WAY could Harry find a way out of getting his soul eaten and that it must be Rowling's worst decision ever... and that, what, the next 400 pages (plus the 2 books after that) are just full of recipes?

The story will continue. Parson may succeed or fail... but if he was disbanded, there would be no point to continuing the story. Wait a little before you start declaring the gloom and doom.

Personally, the suspense is fantastic... whether he is successful or not, the results are going to be interesting and I can't wait to find out what they are.

Could someone please explain me the phrase "render moot" ? Does it mean the question has been answered, or that it is not important any more or something else? Thanks.

"Makes pointless," more or less. So you got it right the first time: "Farrah" is saying that the situation has answered the question for them, so there's no reason to discuss it any further.

[AngryAngel]

I'm dissatisfied. Parson doesn't need any more obstacles; he's one boop-up from dismissal already. Extending Ansom's threat is anti-climatic; he's already got an overwhelming force, and without serious set-backs, Parson stands no chance.

And now they've gone and thrown a monkey-wrench in Parson's already mangled gears.

Ansom doesn't need a break. Ansom doesn't need the dragons killed. Ansom needed Jillian defending him, keeping him in the game without removing Stanley and Parson from it. Now that they've found the wounded dragons, Jillian will have a lot of difficulty rationalising not attacking - and if she doesn't explicitly turn traitor now, the whole game's over. End of Gobwin Knob. End of Parson. End of strip.

All in all, this was a bad move on the author's part.

Jillian is still outnumbered 19 to 9, and we don't know the offensove and defensive stats of the various units. As a former player of turn based wargames, depending on what the combat resolution table looks like, attacking might be suicidal. For example, my old Afrika Korps Combat Results Table gives a 33 percent chance of an attacker outnumbered two to one being eliminated with no loss to the defender, a 33 percent chance of the attcker being forced back two hexes, and a 16.5 percent chance of suffering as much damage as they inflict on the enemy. Those ain't good odds for the side that's winning.

Put another way, the Alliance is winning the war, and Stanley is on his last legs. Is this really the time for death or glory charges against overwhelming odds?

[ChowGuy]

Hmmm... Jillian's disdainful comment about "'Noblesse oblige' and that kinda crap" might shed a bit of light on her rejection of her royal status.

I find the comment before that, coupled with the look on her face, evening more telling. "A noble fool is still a fool." I don't think it was just Ansom she was talking about, but herself as well. I asked before, "What part might Jillian have been manipulated into playing in Stanley's rise to power by regicide (sort of)." I ask again, if Jillian own sentiments and "Noblesse oblige" had been manipulated in the overthrow of a perhaps unjust ruler, thinking either she would be the successor only to have Stanley usurp the position, or that Stanley was indeed the better Overlord only to be shown wrong, might that not go far toward explaining her attitude about a number of things? And if Wanda has manipulated her into again seeing Ansom personally as her "Great White Hope," if only he can be "protected" from himself, then what more rationalization does she need?

No one perhaps is quite as disdainful of a "Noble fool" who throws everything away out of self-delusion then someone who realizes they have done so themselves.

Erm.... you do realize we are probably only halfway through the story, if that? Do you honestly think the author just decided to give up and get rid of the protagonist halfway through?

Erm,... no?

Erfworld will be a full-size, full-color graphic novel, which will wind up when it reaches around 80 or 90 pages (depending on some of Jamie's art choices).

we are now at page 65 (not counting Klogs) so 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through. That still leaves the settlement of the current situation, then a wrap-up. I frankly don't see it going into another full turn, much less an extended battle - siege, tunnel, or otherwise.

"Makes pointless," more or less. So you got it right the first time: "Farrah" is saying that the situation has answered the question for them, so there's no reason to discuss it any further.

More like "Makes irrelevant." The question itself, which was why Jillian was sure the Dwagons weren't there, has not in fact been answered, but the answer at this point has no significance, since whatever the reason was, it was wrong. The question could however, given the options raised, be asked again at a later time assuming anyone survives to ask it.

[Ravenlord]

For a Barbarian it might be.