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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Scientivore View Post
    [*]Dwagons are worth a lot of points. Even split between three archons, four warlords and four gwiffons, the archons could expect to level from their share of the XP from croaking six dwagons.
    They're worth more than that. The dwagons Jillian was talking about weren't the 19 over the lake, but the strongest stack in the Pincers. She wasn't expecting to find the Lake Stack until the last frame of the comic.

    That means that a part of one dwagon would be enough to level the Archons, since Jillian wasn't expecting to meet more than four in any hex.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    nice strip.

    Jillian tried to to the thing some of us predicted (give up searching, go rescue Ansom) but by some strange fate (PLOT!) the hunt just stumbled over the dwagons.

    So how can Parson be not booped? I see several possibilities...

    1. He is booped, he's not even in the erfcast.html!
    2. The spell on Jillian will cause a neural shutdown and the archons pull her out (I doubt they can fight without her direct bonus)
    3. Parson mixed 1 wounded dwagon into each fort hex, so 5 of the dwagons we see circling are at full health. Surprise, surprise.
    4. Jillian and Co. have only enough power to selectively recroak the warlords... but then Stanly still has 2 warlords who can be transfered near the column and continue hit'n'run and with all the dwagons surviving it'll be a slaughter.
    5. Like above but Parson hid his warlords elsewhere. There will be some trade gwiffons for a dwagon and the hunt must retreat or face defeat. Objective not accomplished! Parson said the dwagons are hidden there, he didn't say the warlords are also there explicitly.
    6. The hunt really croaks the A dwagons but the B dwagons will be enough to croak therest of the siege. With this option I do not see how BOTH Wanda and Parson will survice this. Either the Tool dismisses Wanda cause her spell backfired or Prason because he brought the destruction of team Stanley.
    7. Jillian turns on the archons (unlikely?). She could be a willing slave and the spell is not the source of her behaviour... only something to fool the Tool, Sizemore and even Ansom (a safety net.. if Jillian gets caught she can blame it on the spell)


    maybe Parson will be disbanded, returns to Earth only to be summoned again later? There are books I read where the "hero" fails on the first try only to come back and do it right in the end.

    so many possibilities, really hard to predict what's next as all choices are equally possible and "realistic".
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Krelon View Post
    [*]Like above but Parson hid his warlords elsewhere. There will be some trade gwiffons for a dwagon and the hunt must retreat or face defeat. Objective not accomplished! Parson said the dwagons are hidden there, he didn't say the warlords are also there explicitly.
    A close look at frame 60/6 shows that the warlords are riding three of the dwagons over the lake.

    [*]The hunt really croaks the A dwagons but the B dwagons will be enough to croak therest of the siege. With this option I do not see how BOTH Wanda and Parson will survice this. Either the Tool dismisses Wanda cause her spell backfired or Parson because he brought the destruction of team Stanley.
    The key thing is the warlords (which, again, are clearly with the dwagons over the lake). Without them, the hit-and-run tactics don't work, and Stanley takes (additional) massive dwagon losses if he tries to destroy the remaining siege units. That will probably leave Gobwin Knob with insufficient strength to defend itself even if Ansom has to come in through the tunnels.

    As for the reaction in the situation room... that should be most interesting. A "stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic" of Wanda and Parson trying to pin the blame on each other (with Parson at an obvious serious disadvantage)?
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-07 at 02:37 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Suggestion spells aside, Jillian did have a real point. If the force she's got, which is made up of her fastest units, only barely has enough move to swing through Ansom's hex and get to the column, she really didn't have enough move to go hunting around for the wounded dwagons and still be able to concentrate her forces to fight them if she found them. Of course, it's moot now, because she accidentally stumbled into them...

    And re: complications, the Archons are under contract to Jetstone. If Jillian's turned traitor against Jetstone, that doesn't invalidate their alliance agreement with Jetstone... but may invalidate Jillian's orders, especially insofar as they go directly against Jetstone's interests or orders from higher Jetstone authority. But the last orders they had from higher Jetstone authority were to protect Jillian. Under the circumstances, protecting her while simultaneously preventing her from acting openly against Jetstone could get complicated, indeed. That dysfunctional group dynamic might save Parson's boop yet.

    And: "C'mon, it'll be fun. You'll level." I laughed.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    As for the reaction in the situation room... that should be most interesting. A "stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic" of Wanda and Parson trying to pin the blame on each other (with Parson at an obvious serious disadvantage)?
    I picture more something like
    Spoiler
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    Stanley: "She's heading away. Wanda you're the best. Wait. Wait. There's someone heading back to the lake. It's Ansom!"
    ...some time later...
    Wanda: "We lost the three warlords!"
    Parson: "We have to pull back the dwagons!"
    Stanley: "Don't sweat the small stuff. You did a nice job Parson. Wanda, bring me the arkenpliers when they get here and end the turn. I told you Ansom was bringing them to me. I'm outta here."

    but it's probly going to be nothing like that.
    Last edited by ag30476; 2007-08-07 at 03:15 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Here's a thought, lemmi know how plausable you guys think it is:

    Stanly's poor dragons are destroyed, and he throws a HUGE fit, and sends parson to the front lines. when encountered, they notice his lack of having stats and capture him instead of croaking him. the archons notice the fate magic around him, and sever the control stanly has over him, and parson becomes general for the 'good guys' and once with them, it is found that he can control the arkenpliers, and he attains them after beating stanly and taking the arkenhammer for ansem.

    now with two arkentools, ansem decides that he must have them all under his protection, causing the coalition to devide, some factions agreeing and some believing him to be a second stanly. knowing how parson came into the world, the ones who dissagree make way to bring more generals into the world in order to protect the arkentools from ansem's control, making for battles the likes of which nobody in erfworld had ever seen.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by galdon View Post
    Here's a thought, lemmi know how plausable you guys think it is:

    Stanly's poor dragons are destroyed, and he throws a HUGE fit, and sends parson to the front lines. when encountered, they notice his lack of having stats and capture him instead of croaking him. the archons notice the fate magic around him, and sever the control stanly has over him, and parson becomes general for the 'good guys' and once with them, it is found that he can control the arkenpliers, and he attains them after beating stanly and taking the arkenhammer for ansem.

    now with two arkentools, ansem decides that he must have them all under his protection, causing the coalition to devide, some factions agreeing and some believing him to be a second stanly. knowing how parson came into the world, the ones who dissagree make way to bring more generals into the world in order to protect the arkentools from ansem's control, making for battles the likes of which nobody in erfworld had ever seen.
    Trying to hard to make parson be on ansom's side.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    no actually, i just am seeing that no matter whats been happening, team ansom cannot seem to take any important casualty. and thier charicters are only now being fully developed, while a majority of the gobwin hobb guys are pretty much done. it just seems unlikely that the ansem team is even remotelly close to going away.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    So...anyone else find it really ironical to hear Jillian say :«he needs savings sometimes» when she is the one that keep getting captured? Anyway, they dont have to kill the 19 dragons (and maybe they could but that doesnt matter). They just have to kill the warlords and thats it, the dragons retreat next turn. Dont forget that the dragons are Stanley main force, he got only 200 infantry left so he cant afford to lose the dragons while fighting Ansom or he lose the wars no matter what Parson might do next (and he wont even have a dragon to retreat from GW with the arkenhammer).
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    I have a small, possibly incorrect theory:

    Wanda told Jillian at some point about the wounded dragons, or about the plan in general.
    What Wanda told proved to be wrong, so this could lead to Jillian 'breaking it off' with Wanda, especially if Jillian didn't know about the suggestion spell and thought the two of them merely had something 'going on'.

    So it's possible that Jillian may realize Wanda is using her and become angry enough to wipe out said dragon stack, or simply fly to Ansom's rescue and become more on his side than ever.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    So...anyone else find it really ironical to hear Jillian say :«he needs savings sometimes» when she is the one that keep getting captured? Anyway, they dont have to kill the 19 dragons (and maybe they could but that doesnt matter). They just have to kill the warlords and thats it, the dragons retreat next turn. Dont forget that the dragons are Stanley main force, he got only 200 infantry left so he cant afford to lose the dragons while fighting Ansom or he lose the wars no matter what Parson might do next (and he wont even have a dragon to retreat from GW with the arkenhammer).
    Who says units retreat without leadership. In fact at the start of this turn we had six stacks of dwagons siting without warlords that had not retreated. and he has approximately 200 living troops... big difference.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by HellPuppi View Post
    I have a small, possibly incorrect theory:

    Wanda told Jillian at some point about the wounded dragons, or about the plan in general.
    What Wanda told proved to be wrong, so this could lead to Jillian 'breaking it off' with Wanda, especially if Jillian didn't know about the suggestion spell and thought the two of them merely had something 'going on'.

    So it's possible that Jillian may realize Wanda is using her and become angry enough to wipe out said dragon stack, or simply fly to Ansom's rescue and become more on his side than ever.
    I don't think so, seeing as Wanda didn't know about the plan and the wounded dwagons beforehand.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    I was just thinking she seemed alwfully sure of the dragons 'not being out there'.

    Then again it could have been arrogance speaking.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by HellPuppi View Post
    I was just thinking she seemed alwfully sure of the dragons 'not being out there'.

    Then again it could have been arrogance speaking.
    or her wanting to protect Ansom and knowing she did not have enough move to keep searching and protect Ansom.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeku View Post
    I specified that Ansom's least stupid strategy would be to join with Jillian while striking the wounded dwagons several comics back, and I believe I reiterated it once he was in the center of the quantum hex, and we knew that he had enough move to pass through the strong hex to get back to the column.
    There's just one fly in your ointment. Jillian.

    She's shown a distinct penchant for ignoring Ansom's orders and strategy. Heck, look at her actions in this page. She has -no intention- of letting Ansom come to harm; that would include actually picking him up and bringing him into a battle.

    Plus, Jillian seems to desperately want Ansom's approval; her method, of course, is by croaking as many of Stanley's units as possible. This is her Achille's Heel - she'll forgo his bonus and his combat ability to show that she can do this on her own.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    #39 panel #1 & 2 Make so much more sense now that this foreshadowing the events we now see, the comment relating to "he is not so bad for a royal", was the seed planted by Wanda to create a trigger event when or if she was challanged about her loyality to him, which the Archons did once the spell was reconized, so Wanda did do some pre-planning but with the Archon's undefined abilities places them in the middle being uncertain of Jillian's actions or intentions.

    Spoiler
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    Look up Noblesse-oblige and you will get some interesting project facts.

    Defination: "Noblesse oblige" is generally used to imply that with wealth, power, and prestige come social responsibilities. The phrase is sometimes used derisively, in the sense of condescending, patronising or hypocritical social responsibility. The term has also been applied more broadly to those who are capable of simple acts to help another, usually one who is less fortunate.
    Last edited by kreszantas; 2007-08-07 at 08:13 PM. Reason: remove duplicate sentance
    Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Don't forget that until they found the dwagons, they had no idea they were over a water hex.

    My take of it is this. To take out the dwagons, they need the warlords that they sent in different directions to look for the wounded dwagons. As Jillian said, they had enough moves to get the Warlords back by punching through the strongest hex. If Jillian doesn't return, the warlords will say she was a traitor. If she does return and says that she found the dwagons, the warlords might believe it is a trick because she lied about remaining where she was. Two moves away from Ansom means that the warlords would not be able to return.

    The spell on Jillian could also have some odd battle related issues. She might attack the worst choice of enemies first. She might say things to the warlords that tick them off the most and make them less likely to believe her intell. She might, knowing that there is a spell on her, decide that the best way to help Ansom is to let herself be captured so they no longer have a spy.

    We shall see in Page 36!

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    #39 panel #1 & 2 Make so much more sense now that this foreshadowing the events we now see, the comment relating to "he is not so bad for a royal", was the seed planted by Wanda to create a trigger event when or if she was challanged about her loyality to him, which the Archons did once the spell was reconized, so Wanda did do some pre-planning but with the Archon's undefined abilities places them in the middle being uncertain of Jillian's actions or intentions.

    Spoiler
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    Look up Noblesse-oblige and you will get some interesting project facts.

    Defination: "Noblesse oblige" is generally used to imply that with wealth, power, and prestige come social responsibilities. The phrase is sometimes used derisively, in the sense of condescending, patronising or hypocritical social responsibility. The term has also been applied more broadly to those who are capable of simple acts to help another, usually one who is less fortunate.
    Wait... I forgot about that. She's royal but she says "Not so's anyone would know."

    CAN she really be disbanded? She's royalty.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    See the map in frame 60/4. Jillian's squadron is apparently coming in from the left, and is (when Stanley declares "She's over the lake! She's one hex away!") over one of the lake hexes on the left edge of the frame. When she flies over the beach and goes over the lake, she is still at least one hex away from the wounded dwagons.
    Uh… brain hurts. Makes no sense. Stanley says “She's one hex away”, but Jillian doesn't cross the beach (which she does at right angles to the waterline) until well into the next strip. So she had to be over land when she was one hex away, and therefore is now in the same hex as the dwagons. But Stanley also said “She's over the lake” so she couldn't have been over land at the time.

    Is this a booper?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenputtyknife View Post
    Uh… brain hurts. Makes no sense. Stanley says “She's one hex away”, but Jillian doesn't cross the beach (which she does at right angles to the waterline) until well into the next strip. So she had to be over land when she was one hex away, and therefore is now in the same hex as the dwagons. But Stanley also said “She's over the lake” so she couldn't have been over land at the time.

    Is this a booper?
    Occuring in a temporal state simoultaneous with the previous strip?

    Or, is simpler terms, a "meanwhile".
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    A couple of quick notes:
    1. Jillian and the Archons are almost certainly over the lake hex adjacent to the Dwagons' hiding place. The dwagons they're observing are even grouped in a hex shape, while they are hovering some distance away.
    2. Jillian's not likely to catch much flak for ditching Webinar. She can spin it that she knew he wouldn't have enough move to get all the way back and just wanted to get back at him for calling her a traitor. It's silly and childish and totally in line with her character, and there are bigger things to call her out for (like her reckless disregard for orders).

    I've said before I think Wanda's control of Jillian is about to break down. This could provide the impetus. Then again, I find it equally likely the control will hold. Here's what I see happening:

    Option 1: the Control Holds
    I could see Jillian simply claiming that she can't see the wounded Dwagons and dashing off. The Archons would likely be too indecisive to stop her, and given move restrictions, once she moves on there would be little to be done for it but follow.

    Or, she may simply decide that they don't have enough force and move on.

    However, it looks like they have the move resources to get Ansom and Vinny back to the dwagon hex even after traveling to meet him. In that case, I really don't see a scenario where the control could hold without Jillian completely turning traitor. That's a valid option as well; she could even defect into Wanda's waiting arms.

    Option 2: the Control Breaks
    The dwagons, or at the very least, the uncroaked warlords, are booped. What does that mean for Parson and Team Stanley?

    The Tool may actually show some generosity and willingness to forgive and grant another chance. He's done it for Wanda after she boops stuff up, mostly because she'd established prior competence. Parson showed some real ability that could, with just a little more experience, really blossom, and even Stanley might see that.

    Or, Parson could get demoted and sent out to combat, with interesting results. I don't think this would be a travesty from Parson's point of view, but may spell the end of Stanley's side.

    Parson seems to think that if they lose those dwagons, they've lost the war ("You're officially betting our lives on it"). Maybe that's true, or maybe the battle was over before it began. Who really knows for sure? This post is already long enough, and it's probably mostly wrong.

    One last thing before I go. I find myself thinking of three interests here: Stanley, Ansom, and Parson. I want Parson to succeed, but I also want Ansom to succeed; the Tool can go boop himself for all I care, but Parson's goals are inextricably bound to the Tool's. This dynamic is part of what makes this story so interesting to me.

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    A close look at frame 60/6 shows that the warlords are riding three of the dwagons over the lake.
    yep, I also looked closer at page 65, very last picture. very small figures riding dwagons..

    Looks like the only contingency plan for Parson is the spell.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    But are you factoring in that the dwagons aren't at 100% health? Combat tables don't tend to factor that in. They'd be losing units every round...


    Not necessarily winning. They have advantages, yes, but don't count Parson out yet.
    your not factoring quality. earlier 1 red dragon nailed jillians gryphon (assuming top gryphon) and dismounted and proceeded to capture her. Factoring out AOE spells,multi attacks, dodging, fact that the dragons don't die in one hit, Jillian is in a VERY VERY bad situtaion. I'm going to be generous and give jillian and her mount an attack so thats 9 attacks and assume that they knock out the warlord mounts. Thats brings it down to 10 dragons. Since it has been established one A dragon kills one gryphon and discounting AOE breath attacks (firebreath) thats 5 gryphons dead and with no mount we can eliminate jillian as well. that leaves archons who will then proceed to kill 3 more dragons. the dragons can then focus fire and eliminate the archons one by one. I always said in my posts number > quality here the dragons ahve numbers AND quality. Jillians groups is booped in my book.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by ryos View Post
    The dwagons, or at the very least, the uncroaked warlords, are booped. What does that mean for Parson and Team Stanley?
    Stanley ends up with with five hexes of dwagons in need of a warlord—preferably one who can't be disintegrated by the Arkenpliers—and a growing urge to send his one remaining (and not uncroaked) warlord to the front lines. Hmm…

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkenputtyknife View Post
    Stanley ends up with with five hexes of dwagons in need of a warlord—preferably one who can't be disintegrated by the Arkenpliers—and a growing urge to send his one remaining (and not uncroaked) warlord to the front lines. Hmm…
    he has more than one remaining warlord. Counting the dustable: Parson used 3 of his 5 uncroaked to lead the hit'n'run. That leaves 2 uncroaked but even disregarding them that leaves: Parson, Wanda, Sizemore and the Tool himself.

    In the valid context of having a lot of replacements I'm wondering if removing the uncroaked and retreating (which will leave most dwagons alive) will be as effective as Ansom was hoping. I'm also wondering if Jillian + archons + few gwiffons can really take out the entire A-dwagon stack, as this would be the only effective way to hurt team Stanley (in other words: how badly damaged are those dwagons and are there fresh ones mixed into that group?).


    there are too many unknowns. satill trying to predict:
    Spoiler
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    The spell on Jillian paralyzes her, Archons deliver Jillian to Ansom, the siege is dust, spell is removed from Jillian on allliance turn, a new (seemingly?) loyal Jillian is highly motivated to lead a tunnel assault.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    I don't think the casters count as warlords, do they?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Does that imply a set loss rate on both sides for calculations?
    If so, those calculations would be a bit off here; defender loss rate could be higher...
    The table for Afrika Korps seems to favor the defender slightly. How much I can't say, but in ground combat defense is stronger than offence. In case of a 'tie' the player who is outnumbered (in attack or defence factors) removes all of his/her units, while the other player removes an equal number of factors (either attack or defense) based on whether they were the attacker or the attackee. It's a pretty simple system, but then, Afrika Korps is a beginning level wargame.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
    your not factoring quality.<snip>
    Actually, I am.

    Given that the Archons are units of still-unknown capabilities, you don't know THEY don't have an AOE of some sort or a counter to a dwagon's attacks. There's a reason why Ansom hired them, knowing dwagons are out there...

    Oh, and... maybe you should also take into considerationthis, this and this.

    They don't always show the full details of what occurred - only the highlights that are plot-relevant.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Given that the Archons are units of still-unknown capabilities, you don't know THEY don't have an AOE of some sort or a counter to a dwagon's attacks. There's a reason why Ansom hired them, knowing dwagons are out there...
    Ansom hired them to (possibly) rescue Jillian. That could equally well imply that their main talents are in stealth or subterfuge, not that they're all-powerful units who can kick a dwagon's butt without effort.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 71, page 65

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Ansom hired them to (possibly) rescue Jillian. That could equally well imply that their main talents are in stealth or subterfuge, not that they're all-powerful units who can kick a dwagon's butt without effort.
    Given Jillian's penchant for running into fights, disobeying Ansom's commands, and reckless disregard for her allies... do you really think any sort of stealth or subterfuge would help?

    It's like putting a sponge on a 25-pound sledgehammer to make it more stealthy.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

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