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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Optimization race/class

    In 1e (Unearthed Arcana included), what race and class combination shines above the others?

    The old thread about 2e sparked many different opinions, many because of the introduction of kits.

    1e was a bit simpler and I'm curious about your opinion.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Well, it depends on what level. 1st level is different from late game due to race-level restrictions. Several races cap out at levels 6-9, while others are unlimited. Except thieves, which is unlimited for everyone, because reasons.... Also, different classes scale differently, so minor bonuses are less important then the class scaling itself.

    As for things that are better at first level, here's a few that I have run into. Note, that some of these are due to the base age that these races start at.
    Wood Elf Druids. (Gets a +1 Strength for Wood Elf, and +1 wisdom due to Middle Aged being the youngest age that can be rolled)
    Grey, High, Valley Elf Fighter/Ranger (Get a +1 to hit w/ Bow or Short/Long Sword, +1 Dex)
    Grey, Valley Elf Magic-User (+1 Int, +1 Dex, -1 Constitution)
    Wild Elf Anything Melee. (+2 Strength, -1 Constitution)
    Dwarf Fighters. (+1 Constitution and lots of Magic/Poison resist)
    Gnome Illusionists (Illusionists are OP if played right, and gnomes have Magic resist)
    Halfling Thieves (+1 Dex, -1 Constitution)
    Grey, High, Valley Elf Thieves (+1 Dex, -1 Constitution)

    This is of course leaving out humans, which do not get any racial bonuses at first level. On the other hand, in 1st edition you can stop leveling in one Class and start leveling in another. (But can never gain XP in the first class again) So you could do 12 levels in fighter, keep all your abilities, then go Magic user. Being in a 12th level dungeon you would power level Magic-User from first level, and also be able to wear Plate Armor. Other races can not do this, but have to be multi-classed from the start. Humans are the best for end game, unless you never want to pick another class, AND your race/class combo is unlimited level.
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    It's been awhile, but I recall human cavaliers being OP, because they got to raise their stats level over level.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Monks get powerful...eventually but probably not the best.

    Cavaliers are pretty brutal.

    The original classic though would be the bard. You get some decent fighter abilities (including weapon specialization), decent thief abilities, and some nice spellcasting/bardic abilities/and all druid abilities. Make him a half elf for slight benefits and to make you wonder how the rules work for this (you must dual class to become a bard twice but half elves cannot dual class).
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Depends highly on the level you're going to be playing at.

    While Bard was mentioned, you can also get a lot of mileage out of a ranger, or a ranger/mage, if you can swing it. For an elf, a Gray elf is the best option, though a human is pretty nasty if you have the stats to dual to mage. A high-level ranger does impressive damage against humanoids, and can cast mage spells in armor, in addition to their other benefits.
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Magua View Post
    It's been awhile, but I recall human cavaliers being OP, because they got to raise their stats level over level.
    Well, only in the first draft found in UA. They were also suicidal in this version too. If there is a dragon in a cave, you MUST fight it to the death, even if you are level 1. As written in Unearthed Arcana, they are unlikely to reach a high enough level to enjoy those benefits.

    UA-15: "As a result of the code and desire for battle, cavaliers cannot be controlled in battle situations. They will charge any enemy in sight, with the following order of preference: " Then it lists most dangerous to least.

    The version in UA was originally from Dragon Magazine, who decided that cavaliers were poorly designed and revamped them. I am about to play one in a couple weeks for a new game using the Dragon Mag version. (I clipped it below as a pdf on my server) With this version they are very good, but not over-powered. They are closer to a paladin without the holy/cleric abilities.

    https://whitestar.drumbum42.com:2471...tkOaYkFvCrl5pJ
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    (Had to dig UA out for this)

    It's questionable as to how mandatory that is, since UA specifically calls out penalties for not following it (pg 16):

    In enforcing this code, the DM may reduce or eliminate experience that is gained by the cavalier if its gaining violates the spirit or letter of the code. A cavalier who retreats from battle, even to save fellow party members, would receive half experience for the beasts slain in his or her retreat.
    As to whether the UA cavalier is a broken class that merited a redesign, it most certainly is and most certainly did. But since the OP specifically mentioned that things in UA were allowed...

    Also, I take back my original comment. Assuming that you could handle the codes of conduct, what you really want is a UA paladin, which gives all the abilities of /both/ classes.

    So, yeah.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Magua View Post
    (Had to dig UA out for this)

    But since the OP specifically mentioned that things in UA were allowed...

    So, yeah.
    Fair point. (I'm about to play one, and did piles of research, so I got a bit carried away) In that case the Cavalier is likely the best class hands down till high level when Magic-Users become 1 person City-Depopulators and Druids can cast Creeping doom for up to 500 Damage on a single target. The downside being there's several Cavalier only abilities, group buffs and immunities that the player has to understand and remember, making game play difficult compared to other classes. (I had 8 lines of special notes at the bottom of my char sheet till I swapped to Dragon Mag version)

    Then again some people just love a challenge, so this could be for them.
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    In 1e (Unearthed Arcana included), what race and class combination shines above the others?
    Bard.

    Other than bard? Depends on the level at which we're talking. 1st level characters? My vote would be Paladin. Mid-level (5-7)? My vote would probably be cleric. Title level and up? Probably MU. But all of it depends on the campaign itself. Not all settings are equal in bringing the same classes to the fore.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    At level 1, paladin (human only of course) is probably straight up the most powerful, with always-on abilities and immunities. It also has one of or the most difficult ability score requirements to meet. If you include the UA and are lucky enough to roll a paladin with a full noble heritage, you can start with a warhorse and full suit of plate at level 1. Ranger (human or half-elf only) has got a couple very nice abilities that give it some significant advantages, too (chance of being surprised cut in half, chance of surprising the enemy increased, extra damage to most humanoid monsters, on top of tracking). At name levels, both those classes start getting spells, too.

    At high levels, monks (only human) are pretty amazing, too. They have naturally improving AC, unarmed damage increases and number of unarmed attacks increases to crazy amounts, plus a laundry list of immunities and special abilities. At low level they are very vulnerable, but if you survive long enough you become superman. They also have very difficult to meet score requirements.

    The 1e bard is pretty amazing as well, though it's not even an option until the game has reached around level 10, in addition to needing ability scores similar to the monk's. But the ability to charm creatures as an area effect with your music, at will without restrictions, is pretty amazing. It starts out as a low chance and gets higher as you go, but even if they save against the charm the creatures are will be dazed for a round as they listen to the music. Also being a druid and having thief abilities is pretty sweet.

    the most easily accessible power choices would probably be an Elf fighter/magic user or a half-elf fighter/cleric or ranger/cleric or ranger/druid. Full armor, any weapons, plus spells and useful race abilities. Non-humans cap out at 5th-10th level, of course, but if the game isn't going to last that long it won't really matter. You'll only be one or two levels behind single classed characters.

    Elf fighter/thief/magic-user is nice, too, but using the thief abilities is penalized or doesn't work by wearing armor, so the fighter's contribution is slightly reduced in that combination. But it is still great to get backstabbing, fighter attack progression and saving throws and weapon choice, thief abilities and spells, and ability to use practically any magic items that are found.

    Really, "optimizing" in 1e means getting really lucky when you roll for your character. If you are using psionics, too, just get lucky on the roll for those and then roll the highest power level and power selection. Then you can be a paladin or a monk or a fighter/thief/magic-user that can also start fires with their mind, increase their bone density, have ESP, and potentially kill people with mind bullets.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    One thing many people do not realize about bards and monks is how great high con is for them. IN both cases due to having so many actual hit dice they get more instances of that con bonus to HP than other classes.

    A 16 con for a monk is counted twice at first level and every level they get after that which is really nice at higher levels where they do not otherwise get a lot of HP. IN many ways after getting the minimums con is the most important ability score for a monk.

    As for bards one has to consider that having fighter levels they get ful benefit from high con and with how many hit dice they get on the whole it really adds up as well.

    IN both cases high con is amazing but of course trying to get that high con is cery difficult but if you can get it TAKE IT! Heck I would take that con over even the 18/XX str for the bard (18 normal str is definitely not worth it) since str boosting items are very possible along with str boosting spells high con is much more rare.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    I recall having to make house rules for cavaliers when 4 of 5 players at the table wanted to play one.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    One thing many people do not realize about bards and monks is how great high con is for them. IN both cases due to having so many actual hit dice they get more instances of that con bonus to HP than other classes.

    A 16 con for a monk is counted twice at first level and every level they get after that which is really nice at higher levels where they do not otherwise get a lot of HP. IN many ways after getting the minimums con is the most important ability score for a monk.

    As for bards one has to consider that having fighter levels they get ful benefit from high con and with how many hit dice they get on the whole it really adds up as well.

    IN both cases high con is amazing but of course trying to get that high con is cery difficult but if you can get it TAKE IT! Heck I would take that con over even the 18/XX str for the bard (18 normal str is definitely not worth it) since str boosting items are very possible along with str boosting spells high con is much more rare.
    I agree with this.

    If you are just looking at the non-special situations like these or UA, I would look at the half-elf cleric/fighter/mage-user.

    But in some cases these things don't matter. Some DMs ignore level restrictions and others don't kill PCs so...

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    One thing many people do not realize about bards and monks is how great high con is for them. IN both cases due to having so many actual hit dice they get more instances of that con bonus to HP than other classes.

    A 16 con for a monk is counted twice at first level and every level they get after that which is really nice at higher levels where they do not otherwise get a lot of HP. IN many ways after getting the minimums con is the most important ability score for a monk.

    As for bards one has to consider that having fighter levels they get ful benefit from high con and with how many hit dice they get on the whole it really adds up as well.

    IN both cases high con is amazing but of course trying to get that high con is cery difficult but if you can get it TAKE IT! Heck I would take that con over even the 18/XX str for the bard (18 normal str is definitely not worth it) since str boosting items are very possible along with str boosting spells high con is much more rare.
    I thought you didn't gain HP in a dual class until the new class passes the old classes level.

    Please explain.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Klorox View Post
    I thought you didn't gain HP in a dual class until the new class passes the old classes level.

    Please explain.
    No, you still gain HP. You can't use the abilities of your old class again until your new class has passed the level of the old one. Well, you can use the old class abilities, but if you do you don't get any XP for that adventure. The only thing you have from your old class is the HP and the saving throws, until you've gained enough levels.

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    No, you still gain HP. You can't use the abilities of your old class again until your new class has passed the level of the old one. Well, you can use the old class abilities, but if you do you don't get any XP for that adventure. The only thing you have from your old class is the HP and the saving throws, until you've gained enough levels.
    You also usually don't get new HD, either, until the new level exceeds the old... but Bard's are a special case.

    So, you want to powerplay your 1e bard? You start as a fighter, naturally, and go to 7th level, meaning you have 3/2 attacks and 7d10 HD (plus 7 times your con bonus). You then continue to 9th level thief, getting 2 more D6 in HD (and your Con bonus twice more). Now you switch to Bard, and the fun happens.

    Bards get 1d6 HD at levels 2-11, for a total of 10 extra HD... meaning a Bard can, conceivably, have 19 HD, which will be 7d10+12d6 (or 7d10+2d6+10d6, to give the class breakdown). Since you get your Con bonus on EVERY hit die, a bard who had a 18 Constitution would have an additional 76 HP, on top of that MASSIVE number of HD.

    Toss in UA and you can also do this while getting the advantage of double specialization.
    The Cranky Gamer
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    You also usually don't get new HD, either, until the new level exceeds the old... but Bard's are a special case.

    So, you want to powerplay your 1e bard? You start as a fighter, naturally, and go to 7th level, meaning you have 3/2 attacks and 7d10 HD (plus 7 times your con bonus). You then continue to 9th level thief, getting 2 more D6 in HD (and your Con bonus twice more). Now you switch to Bard, and the fun happens.

    Bards get 1d6 HD at levels 2-11, for a total of 10 extra HD... meaning a Bard can, conceivably, have 19 HD, which will be 7d10+12d6 (or 7d10+2d6+10d6, to give the class breakdown). Since you get your Con bonus on EVERY hit die, a bard who had a 18 Constitution would have an additional 76 HP, on top of that MASSIVE number of HD.

    Toss in UA and you can also do this while getting the advantage of double specialization.
    Yup. The bard is special in that bard levels and hit dice. The fighter thief dual class part remains the same.

    As to his other bit PHB page 33:

    At such time as the character has attained a level of experience in his or
    her new class which exceeds the character's former class level, the following
    benefits are gained:
    1. A hit die appropriate to the new class is gained for each
    increase in level of experience, up to the maximum normal for
    the class in question (and thereafter hit points are likewise
    gained), and
    2. The character may mix functions freely and still gain
    experience, although restrictions regarding armor, shield,
    and/or weapon apply with regard to operations particular to
    one or both classes.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbum42 View Post
    So you could do 12 levels in fighter, keep all your abilities, then go Magic user. Being in a 12th level dungeon you would power level Magic-User from first level, and also be able to wear Plate Armor. Other races can not do this, but have to be multi-classed from the start.
    However you cant wear plate armor and cast spells. Do you want to carry plate armor and putting on and off? Also id you wear plate when your mage level is less then you fighter level you cant get xp

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by huginn View Post
    However you cant wear plate armor and cast spells. Do you want to carry plate armor and putting on and off? Also id you wear plate when your mage level is less then you fighter level you cant get xp
    That is correct. Sorry, I confused Multi-Classing with "Character with two classes". The restrictions are greater, probably for this reason. Still it makes humans pretty sub-par compared to many races. (Only up side is humans can use Method V for stat rolling from UA)

    I was thinking of my Gnome Illusionist/Fighter, who is Multi-Classed.)
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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbum42 View Post
    That is correct. Sorry, I confused Multi-Classing with "Character with two classes". The restrictions are greater, probably for this reason. Still it makes humans pretty sub-par compared to many races. (Only up side is humans can use Method V for stat rolling from UA)

    I was thinking of my Gnome Illusionist/Fighter, who is Multi-Classed.)
    Keep in mind that for Multi-Classed xp is always divided equally among what classes they have even if they cant level anymore in a class. An Elf that is fighter/mage/thief will take a long time to level. My numbers may be off as I looked at the tables quickly but gnomes max level for a fighter is 6 so when a gnome Illusionist/Fighter has enough xp to be a 5 level fighter a human will be 6 and if the human switched to Illusionist after reaching 6 he can be a 4 or 5 Illusionist at about the same time the gnome will be 6
    I am not sure if the restrictions are greater for dual class

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    Default Re: Optimization race/class

    Quote Originally Posted by huginn View Post
    Keep in mind that for Multi-Classed xp is always divided equally among what classes they have even if they cant level anymore in a class. An Elf that is fighter/mage/thief will take a long time to level. My numbers may be off as I looked at the tables quickly but gnomes max level for a fighter is 6 so when a gnome Illusionist/Fighter has enough xp to be a 5 level fighter a human will be 6 and if the human switched to Illusionist after reaching 6 he can be a 4 or 5 Illusionist at about the same time the gnome will be 6
    I am not sure if the restrictions are greater for dual class
    That's RAW, but I did change that a little bit... instead of splitting your XP equally, I had you pay a "tax" equal to your previous XP in that class to advance in your continuing class.

    So, if you were a halfling Fighter/Thief, and were at 6/24, you wouldn't need to get 440,000 XP to reach level 6/25, but only 255,000 (220,000, plus your fighter XP of 35,000). You're still earning the equivalent of 6 levels of fighter for every level of thief... but you're not having to earn almost 9 levels of fighter for every level of thief.
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