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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GreatWyrmGold's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Do you guys not see the difference between Hel saying she'd use Thrym as a resource and Thrym not believing it, and Hel saying Thrym would be her consort while secretly stripping that title of all meaning?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Do you guys not see the difference between Hel saying she'd use Thrym as a resource and Thrym not believing it, and Hel saying Thrym would be her consort while secretly stripping that title of all meaning?
    Not really? She has supreme power, what does she care if Thrym thinks he's going to get something she never intended to give him? What's he going to do about it?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Presumably that they the unheard voices would get more of a vote in that particular moot. That's why he pledged himself to "getting our voices heard" but not "Destroy the world".
    Yeah, I get the feeling it was supposed to be a "you neglected the demigods and almost had the world destroyed as a result. So it's time to pay attention to us, because there could be other swing votes in the future!"
    Which quickly turned into "Oh ****! We really are going to destroy the world, aren't we?"
    Last edited by Kardwill; 2017-08-02 at 02:22 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    "you neglected the demigods and almost had the world destroyed as a result.
    Did neglecting the demigods lead to the current state of the world?

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    GreatWyrmGold's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Not really? She has supreme power, what does she care if Thrym thinks he's going to get something she never intended to give him? What's he going to do about it?
    Okay, two things. One, that's completely effing irrelevant to the point of that post! People were pointing to Thrym ignoring something Hel said as proof that Hel didn't mean something else she said. Two, I've explained this several times already. Hel cannot afford to piss off her one potential ally.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Hel cannot afford to piss off her one potential ally.
    Yet.

    If Thrym succeeded then the world would be destroyed and Hel would be more powerful than the rest of the gods combined, and all the other gods would hate Thrym for selling them out to Hel.

    At that point, Thrym is holding no cards. He's powerless and friendless.
    Last edited by Michaeler; 2017-08-02 at 07:10 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    GreatWyrmGold's Avatar

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Not nearly as friendless as Hel, what with the whole "arranged the destruction of the world specifically to gain power in the next one" thing. And Hel being the ruler of the pantheon just means she'll need allies even more. Unless she patches up relations with Loki and the rest of the pantheon really fast, she's going to need every friend she can get. Heck, even if she did, she'd still need every friend she can get—she'd just be able to get more.
    And what would she get by ditching Thrym, anyways? A reputation for breaking promises and the freedom to marry any god foolish enough to believe she'll follow through this time?


    I don't know why I'm bothering. I've said all of this before. But apparently some people either pity Thrym or hate Hel so much that they want her to be a bitch so far beyond what is reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    Did neglecting the demigods lead to the current state of the world?
    No, but that's not the point. A Protest vote is a way to demonstrate political power and the willingness to use it. If (Hel's machinations aside) the vote had been a very close one, it would have been the demigods moment in the sun, when they could talk to the full gods and maybe extract concessions for future moots. Remember, moots are the only times all the gods are allowed to talk to one another, even when they don't get along, and it seems in most the demigods aren't even allowed a word, never mind a vote. Holding the world hostage to, say, get the full gods to agree to let the demigods an opinion before the votes would seem like a worthwhile cause.

    In other words, the demigods' argument would be "if you paid more attention to us, you wouldn't have made so many people willing to listen to Hel's scheme". The neglect didn't lead to the current state of the world, but it did give Hel a lot more leverage than she should have had.

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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Not nearly as friendless as Hel, what with the whole "arranged the destruction of the world specifically to gain power in the next one" thing. And Hel being the ruler of the pantheon just means she'll need allies even more. Unless she patches up relations with Loki and the rest of the pantheon really fast, she's going to need every friend she can get. Heck, even if she did, she'd still need every friend she can get—she'd just be able to get more.
    And what would she get by ditching Thrym, anyways? A reputation for breaking promises and the freedom to marry any god foolish enough to believe she'll follow through this time?


    I don't know why I'm bothering. I've said all of this before. But apparently some people either pity Thrym or hate Hel so much that they want her to be a bitch so far beyond what is reasonable.
    I think you are greatly overestimating the value of Thrym as an ally. He's a demigod of a relatively rare race, and all the worshipers he could muster weren't able to stop the Order with several days advance notice.

    And given that Loki is a major god, I don't think anybody actually cares whether their boss is a liar or not.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I think you are greatly overestimating the value of Thrym as an ally. He's a demigod of a relatively rare race, and all the worshipers he could muster weren't able to stop the Order with several days advance notice.

    And given that Loki is a major god, I don't think anybody actually cares whether their boss is a liar or not.
    Not that it matters much, but the frost giants had a few hours' notice, not several days.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    Not that it matters much, but the frost giants had a few hours' notice, not several days.
    Given the level of preparation Hel has made for this, I'm not convinced Roy's reasoning is sound.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Roy may be wrong or he may be right.

    Hel has put some thought into it, but she may not be inclined to go into specifics with a dumb demigod, for fear preparations in the physical world might tip off the other gods. Giant tribes gathering into large warbands is exactly the kind of thing Asgardians would be on the look out for when going into a godsmoot -- assassination of high priests as a prelude to more open warfare is presumably a known risk, given the specific rules in place for bodyguards.

    She may have come to the conclusion that Thrym could easily persuaded if the necessity arose, and left it at that.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by goto124 View Post
    Did neglecting the demigods lead to the current state of the world?
    Nope, the gods and mortals didn't need any help to screw that part themselves. But neglecting the demigods led some of them to vote out of spite or because it was their only hope to get their voice heard at least once. Everyone was surprised so many of them were even at the moot, and they had to look for them because they didn't know where they waited. The demigods were nobodies, and so were completely unpredictable since none of the gods apart from Hel bothered to figure out what would happen nor seek their favors.
    Last edited by Kardwill; 2017-08-02 at 09:28 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kardwill View Post
    ... and they had to look for them because they didn't know where they waited. The demigods were nobodies, and so were completely unpredictable since none of the gods apart from Hel bothered to figure out what would happen nor seek their favors.

    It also did not help that all of the ushers had been murdered.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Would Hel have kept her bargain with Thrym if he succeeded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Humanist View Post
    It also did not help that all of the ushers had been murdered.
    Sure, there's that, too.

    But they still left them at the kiddy table while the adults talk about grown-up stuff, and couldn't find them afterward. If I was the earthly representative of a friggin' demigod, I might be a little pissed off about being treated like a child abandoned in a supermarket by a drunken babysitter ^^
    Last edited by Kardwill; 2017-08-03 at 02:43 AM.

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