Lets make a Grail War

[Gastronomie]

system Kerounous is a EX Ranked Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm.

EX Rank means "Too Powerful to be actually measured."

Exclaibur, in comparison, is an A+++ Ranked Anti-Fortres Noble Phantasm. It's just at the upper limit of what can be measured.

This is a very common misunderstanding. In Fate, EX-rank simply means that it's really powerful, except in "its own special way" that isn't really measurable by normal means. It's like saying something is really "sharp" when you're talking about "length".

For instance, Thomas Edison (Caster) from FGO has an EX score in Constitution, but this does not mean that Edison is tougher than Arturia or Heracles. It rather simply shows that he can "work all day long without being tired". Does that have anything to do with how many attacks he can endure during a fight? No, not really.

Most of the time, if you think in terms of actual effectiveness in combat, A+++ Noble Phantasms are far superior to EX rank Noble Phantasms (although EX-rank NPs are super-powerful as well, no doubt). The same goes for skills and such. Of course, then, there are certain exceptions to this rule, such as Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish, which is EX-rank due to how it's a Noble Phantasm with its own special classification (Anti-"World", instead of Anti-Fortress or Anti-Army), and is far more powerful than Excalibur.

The fact that the first two EX-rank Noble Phantasms appearing in the series (Enuma Elish and Ionian Hetairoi) were extremely powerful made this misunderstanding very common, but if you trace it back to the original definition of "EX-rank", it has nothing to do with its power.

[khadgar567]

This is a very common misunderstanding. In Fate, EX-rank simply means that it's really powerful, except in "its own special way" that isn't really measurable by normal means. It's like saying something is really "sharp" when you're talking about "length".

For instance, Thomas Edison (Caster) from FGO has an EX score in Constitution, but this does not mean that Edison is tougher than Arturia or Heracles. It rather simply shows that he can "work all day long without being tired". Does that have anything to do with how many attacks he can endure during a fight? No, not really.

Most of the time, if you think in terms of actual effectiveness in combat, A+++ Noble Phantasms are far superior to EX rank Noble Phantasms (although EX-rank NPs are super-powerful as well, no doubt). The same goes for skills and such. Of course, then, there are certain exceptions to this rule, such as Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish, which is EX-rank due to how it's a Noble Phantasm with its own special classification (Anti-"World", instead of Anti-Fortress or Anti-Army), and is far more powerful than Excalibur.

The fact that the first two EX-rank Noble Phantasms appearing in the series (Enuma Elish and Ionian Hetairoi) were extremely powerful made this misunderstanding very common, but if you trace it back to the original definition of "EX-rank", it has nothing to do with its power.

you got two diffrent scales mate ionian heteroi is ex because its to flexible as noble phantasm on the other side enuma elish is pure power with no flexibility to do some thing other then wreck the opponent and surrounding area way but heteroi can be used to gather information, assassinate key opponents in enemy lines. and kinda many more uses as commander can use troops as long as you summon alexander with military based mind

between adult or kid version of same archer gilgamesh i take kid version as its much easily controllable and one of his noble phantasms give brat good future sight so he knows when to dodge that attack would kill or hurt him which gives my faction more power and thanks to mt rider zoldark chicks noble phantasm he has much more powerful one he can use in situation call

[Ramza00]

System Keraunos: Legend of Mankind - Advent of Lightning may be superior to Excalibur: Sword of Promised Victory in some things, but one thing that Excalibur has System Keraunos beat on is the damage area of Excalibur is larger than System Keraunos and thus it can target more people or a bigger Cthulhu if the Cthulhu has regeneration abilities.

System Keraunos may have anti divine properties, but Excalibur has the properties of making hallow, holy, sanctify, but also desecrate, deconsecrate, etc. Now Anti Divine is probably more useful most of the time but sometimes the holy / demon sword properties of Excalibur may be more useful depending on the enemy they are going up against. Aka this is like Pokemon and compatibility, psychic is almost always something you want with your pokemon...except when it is not (In Gen 1 there is pretty much no downsides...okay there were bug pokemon but who used a good bug pokemon, yeah that is what I thought... but in Gen 2 Psychics attacks are ineffective completely against Dark Pokemon).

[SuperPanda]

I somehow missed the wiki up-thread so I'll be adjusting my grail war with the awesome feedback I've gotten.

Since Enkidu and Arjuna are already done I'll try again on those - also I'm not happy with my Assassin pick.


Berserker: While I was trying not to dip too often into any one mythological pool Zhang Fei just sounds perfect as a Berserker. His rage was always a problem in his original legend but his brothers helped him control it which could make a powerful Lancer, Berserker alliance in this Grail War.

Archer: Thomas Plunkett

Assassin: With Phantom of the Opera on the list and my already having settled on a betrayal themed Assassin I'd like to revise my pick to Iago from Shakespeare's Othello - or since most of Shakespeare's work is based off earlier works, whoever the actual inspiration was.

My other three still stand with:

Lancer: Guan Yu
Caster: Marie Curie
Saber: Yagu Munenori
Rider: Neil Armstrong

Spoiler: Iago

Show

Iago would be an unusual Assassin in that his combat style would seem a bit more like a Caster's. He was a Venitian soldier and served at Othello's right hand throughout their many wars. As such he should have at least decent combat skill with many weapons including the saber and rapier.

His real power comes in plans and deception however. I imagine he'd have two high level powers to really watch out for.

First is his ability to conceal himself. In his original story this is far more his use of other people's inability to recognize his abilities. In a Fate style grail war I think this would manifest as him being able to masquerade as different Servant classes and even potentially other servants.

In this grail war he would use it to attempt to masquerade as a Liu Bei Saber class to try and form a temporary alliance with Guan Yu and Zhang Fei (this being Nasu verse I'm assuming both Iago and Liu Bei were gender-swapped. If the alliance falters he'd try to turn them against each other and remove two very dangerous and powerful foes in the war.

His second, and strongest ability would be his Poison Tongue(EX) - This would work similar to Phantom's charms only instead of being gender specific it builds up slowly. Basically once he starts talking to an enemy servant he starts building up control over them. The longer he can build it up before activating it the more powerful it is and it can cause a Servant to turn on their master (like Othello turning on Desdemona).

Iago's weakness here would be his pride. His vengeance was instigated most by the slights against him and the lack of respect others showed him in his original story. Iago's wish for the grail war is to be recognized for winning it - as such he wants others to respect his plans.
This gives a very cunning servant a chance to get him off-guard by praising him if they knew who he was while also weakening his poison tongue ability.

In direct combat he'd be just strong enough to not get instantly killed but he's certainly not an out-and-out fighter like many others.

Spoiler: Plunkett

Show

Honestly I only just looked him up when I wanted someone new for this list. He'd be a weak Archer overall and the only real skill I see him having is the ability to use any ranged weapon at considerable range with pinpoint accuracy regardless of its specs.

I don't see him having much in the way of relations with the other Servants or really caring too much who they are.

Spoiler: Zhang Fei

Show

As a powerful brute with a bad temper in his original legend he might not rise to the shear power of Herc but he'd still be a mighty dangerous foe. I'm sure he'd have a high ranked skill connected to his bellow's of rage which could briefly paralyze some servants with fear.

In this grail war I see him being able to snap out of his rage when around Guan Yu and "Liu Bei" though he'd go absolutely banana's if he found out who "Liu Bei" was. He'd have enormously high vitality and some form of a "Thou shalt not pass" ability capable of stopping just about anyone in their tracks.

Spoiler: Marie Curie

Show

A Caster with access to radioactivity just sounds deadly. I'm sure she'd manifest as a caster with various debilitating and "poison" like spells which deal damage over time. She'd be able to track enemy servants which she tags with radioactive particles.

Mostly I think it is her ability as a scientist to deduce other servant's powers and plan ahead which would make her more dangerous.
Being able to plan for a fight and use long distance radioactive debuffs to sap a servant's strength prior to an encounter would make her a deadly target who needs to stay in hiding.

Spoiler: Guan Yu

Show

Lancers seem to be somewhat weak and seem to have enormously bad luck. This would mean calling Guan Yu from the points in his legend where Zhuge Liang was still in the process of humbling him. Lancers seem to suffer a bit from a "Glass Canon" which would mean that Guan Yu would have ungodly high strength seeing as he was already strong enough to become remembered as a god of strength later on. He'd be a very good match against Zhang Fei actually seeing as he'd know his "brother's" strengths and have a high enough Strength score to match Zhang Fei's vitality.

Guan Yu isn't the sharpest spear in the army but he's no idiot either. If anyone works out who "Liu Bei" is it would be him. I'm not sure that Guan Yu from that part of his legend would be able to figure it out. In this Grail war the lancer would probably be one of the most powerful servants all said, but that only means more people would be gunning for him.

Spoiler: Armstrong

Show

Since I got feedback that he'd be okay (if he could be summoned) and he'd likely have abilities which break the rules I totally see him as the protagonist's Servant in this grail war.

His ride would likely be whatever vehicle best fit the situation he was in when he called it, so a pretty ordinary sedan when cruising about town up to a fighter plane (since he was a pilot before and astronaut). I'd give him the ability to alter how much gravity affects him, allowing him to jump like he was on the moon and other things. His super form of this would be to trap his opponents in a Zero Gravity field which he can navigate with his mount. It wouldn't last long but it could also completely neutralize some of the traditional big fighters.

His bonus against Caster-classes here could manifest in radiation shielding on his "rides" allowing him to resist Curie's attacks longer than the others.

Spoiler: Munenori

Show

I am resisting the gender-swap on this one mostly because I'm almost certain that if Nasu-verse's Musashi was a woman then these two were in a Romeo and Juliet relationship (because they never met in the real world).

A strategist in real life, Munenori would likely be a counter on Iago and Curie while able to hold his own in combat against Guan Yu (at least long enough to retreat). His three tier style (Death dealing sword, Life Giving Sword, and No Sword) would be revealed piece by piece.

In the first style he'd pretty much be a standard swordsman, dealing out stylistic quick draws which split objects after a dramatic pause.
Moving up to the Life-Giving sword he'd have the ability to heal himself or others while fighting (in reality this was more of a philosophy of combat dealing with how using the sword to slay a would-be-murderer effectively gives life to the would-be-victim. The No-sword would then be his ability to use other Servant's weapons against them after study (any sword on the battlefield is your sword if you are a true master).

[Kitten Champion]

My group picked their two Servant - albeit I naturally assume tentatively so given a history of fickleness - which they want to play, I was curious to see what they'd go with.

Gemini (Rider) - Castor and Pollux have this neat sort of legendary status which combines the two on a foundational level. The intent here apparently is something like Ben/Glorificus from Buffy the Vampire Slayer with a literal physical merging of the two - Castor being mortal and Pollux divine in this relationship - with each having a distinct personality that the Gemini Servant switches between depending on their will. Basically, this is a way for the player to do Ram and Rem from Re:Zero within the world of Fate, only more bishounen-y. They'll be Neutral Good (Pollux) and Chaotic Neutral (Castor).

Ashoka (Ruler) - famed emperor of India and marked down as a one of history's greatest rulers, conqueror turned devout Buddhist who ruled over a not-inconsiderable amount of Asia that would philosophically and politically push Buddhism on the subcontinent to new heights. Ashoka's mythology provides for a richly varied character, his ideology fits the Ruler mold comfortably, and his legacy cool fodder for a Noble Phantasm. He'll be Lawful Good, described as generally quite chill but with a fiery wrath that can comes out particularly in the face of perceived injustice.

This idea fits well with the conception of the Holy Grail War I was thinking of going with, which is one without any direct overseer and quite a bit of chaos that can be spread as a result. Success, in part, is how much the setting is left untouched by the conclusion as much as anything which gives the Ashoka team a clear direction that the players like.

[Dalinale]

Lovecraft: No argument for or against him qualifying, but given a Reality Marble involves 'manifesting one's inner world', are you sure Lovecraft's mentality would reflect as R'lyeh? Would that really fit his character as a person?

In hindsight, it would probably make more sense if his internalized view of the world looked something like Red Hook, Brookyln, with some extra degenerated half-humans skulking around the corners.

[Lleban]

Ok I've wanted to try this for awhile here's a Grail war you'll remember. I loved Fate 0 and appreciated UBW so I hope this turns out well.

Lancer: Scipio Africanus
Saber: Charlemagne
Rider: Hannibal Barca
Beserker: Shaka Zulu
Archer: Odysseus
Caster: Soumaoro Kanté
Assassin: John Wilkes Booth

Thought processes below

• Lancer- I chose Scipio mostly because I thought it'd be cool to have a historical rival of Hannibal. He first gained fame by saving his army from one of father from a failed battle against his father during Hannibal's Italian campaign. Later in the war he manged to both defeat the Carthaginians in hispania and Hannibal himself at Zama. Roman accounts seem to portray him as very honorable, treating prisoners humanely, no razng Carthage after Zama, and even offering the Carthaginians moderate terms in negations. His seemingly honorable nature and use of very agressive tactics during the second punic war make me think lancer would fit well. In the grail war I can see Scipio having a an anti fortress noble phantasm
• Saber- I'm thinking Charlemagne because, he was the first recognized emperor in Western Europe since the fall of Rome. With the Carolingin Empire helping to bring Europe into the high middle ages and spreading Christianity, I think this is a good choice. Maybe a noble phantasm based around a charge of knights?
• Rider-One of my favorite historical figures Hannibal Barca is famous for crossing the Alps with elephants....though most the elephants died...and curbstomping Roman armies throughout Italy. As one of the greatest generals of the ancient world and known for riding his signature elephant Syrus...rider seems perfect. Fun fact most of the elephants he brought with him were North African forest elephants while Syrus was a much larger indian/syrian variant. I have to imagine most of the tactics he'd use would be either hit and run or ambush. His noble phantasm would probably be anti army as he's given Rome some of the greatest defeats its seen.
• Berserker- Shaka zulu united the zulu tribes of South Africa, supposedly changed the nature of zulu warfare to become far more violent, and reformed zulu tactics. Unfortunately after his mother died he went mad and embarked upon extremely erratic behavior that lead to his demise. He famously forbade the farmers from planting new crops and killed the mothers of clves....so they would know what loosing a mother felt like. Obviously such behavior only increased the assassins coming for his head. I have no clue what kind of noble phantasm he'd have.
• Archer- I'm not sure if Odysseus is a cannon servant, but he seems like he could work as one based on his feat of being the only one of the suitors to string his bow in the odessy.
• Caster From the epic of Sundiata (a west African epic about the founding of the Mali empire) Soumaoro Kanté was the villainous sorcerer king of Ghana and the main antagonist of Sundiata. While i'm not sure of the nature of his noble phantasm versions of the epic say he had a magical balafon( like a wooden xylophone).
• Assassin Honestly I wasn't to sure about this one feel free to offer suggestions.

[Gastronomie]

[*] Assassin Honestly I wasn't to sure about this one feel free to offer suggestions.[/LIST]

Assassins are generally the most difficult to choose, since it's difficult to think up a Noble Phantasm for them. I honestly have no idea what to do with Booth either.

Some original Assassins I've seen in Fate fan fics or TRPG replays (including some I've thought up myself) are:

• Salome: Written in other post, an antagonist character I played as a NPC in my TRPG (her position is pretty much that of Caster from Fate/Zero). Her Noble Phantasm is Baptist John's severed head, which now desecrated by Salome's twisted mindset, constantly sheds black blood akin to that of the Angra Manyu-polluted Holy Grail. This can be used to "baptize" a willing target (generally one that Salome has mind-controlled with her dance, a D+ rank Charm skill) and enhance his/her ability scores, at the cost of devastatingly eroding their life force. She controls an army of mind-controlled innocents that are empowered enough that they can fight Servants using the power of numbers. As a last resort, she can also "baptize" herself, which will make her grow into a gigantic, twisted abomination that will eventually crumble from the inside, its body unable to stand its corruption - but not before wrecking havoc and destroying everything and everyone around it.
• Sawney Bean: The leader of a cannibal family in Scotland. His Noble Phantasm is the "Beans' Family" itself, allowing him to summon them all as mini-Servants. Since the very idea of the "whole Beans' Family" itself is his Noble Phantasm, even if family members are killed, they can be easily resurrected by re-casting the Noble Phantasm (similar in logic to how there are "always exactly" 72 Demons of Solomon in Fate/Grand Order) - but if Sawney Bean himself is killed, all of them will disappear at once. Sorta similar to Hassan of the One Hundred Faces, except that in Sawney Bean's case, he doesn't have to worry about his numbers gradually decreasing, but he does have to worry about himself dying.
• Itou Ittousai: Same type as Sasaki Kojiro. Meaning, his masterful katana technique itself is his Noble Phantasm.
• Original (newly thought-up) Hassans: There are multiple instances of these. Some are powerful enough to fight the Three Knights head-on, while others use other techniques, such as controlling poisonous animals.

[Spacewolf]

Hmm can't think of interesting ones for some of them so I'll just go for 4,

Lancer: Ajax, only major hero of the Illiad that fights without divine favour with the only boost he's given is when Poseidon gives him a second wind. His awful luck would also fit in with the Lancers always getting horrible screwed.

Archer: Teucer, especially if you could team him with Ajax or his Noble phantasm summons the 9 fold shield considering how well they work together at the battle of the ships.

Saber: Beowulf, honourable yet doesn't have the pride issues of some as he's happy to serve under people. Think he would fit here even though his most famous interactions with swords are them all shattering, since Hrunting is still fairly famous in it's own right.

Rider: Gwain the Green especially if him getting the green girdle is taken literally to make him invincible.

[Velaryon]

We know from Unlimited Blade Works that Servants don't have to be from ancient times (though those characters often have the most poweful legends), so I decided to put some more modern Servants in. I wanted to do a whole Holy Grail War of modern-ish characters, but I struggled to find anyone who fit a couple of the classes.

Saber: Spartacus, who I think needs no explanation.
Archer: Simo Häyhä, Finnish sniper known as the White Death, who holds the highest number of confirmed sniper kills in history.
Lancer: Honda Tadakatsu, samurai whose famous Tonbogiri was said to be so sharp that a dragonfly would be cut in half if it landed on the blade.
Rider: Manfred von Richthofen, the German WWI flying ace better known as the Red Baron.
Caster: Harry Houdini, one of the most famous stage magicians and escape artists of all time (I almost chose Aleister Crowley for this, but I think Houdini has a stronger legend which would make him a better Servant)
Berserker: Attilla the Hun, because I don't think any Fate series has used him yet and that needs to change.
Assassin: Gavrilo Princip, whose assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand touched off World War I.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Atilla is a major player in Fate/Extella, sort of. It's incredibly complicated even beyond the expected genderswap.

Houdini, though, I think would make a very interesting Caster, because he devoted so much of his career to debunking phony mystics and never claimed to use anything beyond naturalistic methods for his own escapes and tricks. Sort of an Anti-Caster, really.

[Velaryon]

He'd just be a very very week one unless this Grail War takes place a hundred years in the future.(probably couldn't be summoned in the modern day. A Servant's power is proportionate to how old their legend is and how long it's been since they've died, and unless the spirit is unusually well known or powerful(Like Nikola Tesla or Thomas Edison) you usually can't summon someone who is less than 100 years dead. While it's possible to summon someone to before they died, that usually requires a Counter Guardian or for you to be cheating.)

What about Archer in Unlimited Blade Works? I won't mention specifics since spoilers for anyone who might not be familiar, but he seems to contradict this rule.

Atilla is a major player in Fate/Extella, sort of. It's incredibly complicated even beyond the expected genderswap.

Houdini, though, I think would make a very interesting Caster, because he devoted so much of his career to debunking phony mystics and never claimed to use anything beyond naturalistic methods for his own escapes and tricks. Sort of an Anti-Caster, really.

Ah, I don't think I've seen that one yet. Guess I'll have to check it out.

I could totally get behind Caster Houdini pulling off amazing magic and then insisting that it was all done through real and practical effects, and wasn't magical at all.

[Nerd-o-rama]

OG Archer is one of those rampant exceptions to the established rules, alyhough he has a couple of excuses.

Spoiler

Show

One is that Rin is insanely, stupidly powerful and thanks to the magic of time paradoxes had the best possible Catalyst for Emiya. The other is that he was also maybe (I'm kinda unclear on this) functioning as a Coubter Guardian, an agent of the spirit of Humanity who pops into conflicts that might spiral into massive catastrophes to keep them contained.

Honestly, though, the Throne of Heroes exists outside of time and space. Any cutoff date for "when" a Heroic Spirit can be summoned as a Servant is entirely arbitrary and could easily be written off as a few of the F/SN Servants (mostly Gilgamesh and to some extent Caster) being elitist pricks.

[Rater202]

What about Archer in Unlimited Blade Works? I won't mention specifics since spoilers for anyone who might not be familiar, but he seems to contradict this rule.

Archer is a Counter Guardian. He's not a Heroic Spirit because he has a Legend worthy of becoming one, but because he sold his soul, becoming Alayah's Hitman in exhange for something he wanted.

Basically, he doesn't operate on the same rules as other Servants.

[Ramza00]

Archer is a Counter Guardian. He's not a Heroic Spirit because he has a Legend worthy of becoming one, but because he sold his soul, becoming Alayah's Hitman in exhange for something he wanted.

Basically, he doesn't operate on the same rules as other Servants.

I am quibbling but it is not a quibble.

Fate/complete material III: World material - Records of Heavens Feel - Servant System: Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants, p.012

Flat out disagrees with you Rater202. Archer is a heroic spirit, contracts with the world is just another way of becoming a heroic spirit instead of having a famous legend.

Now we should not be really saying Heroic Spirit but instead be saying 英霊 as in Legendary Soul. Archer is a legendary soul even without having a famous legend, and Fate Complete Material III under the records of heaven feel servant system states that another way of becoming a heroic spirit besides having a famous legend (that may or may not have happened) is to make a contract with the world.

Now Archer himself has his own opinion on whether he is a hero, or whether he should be a hero, but that is irrespective that technically he is a hero even if he does not like it. Data books trump unreliable narrators who have self esteem / ego problems.

Now continue the GAR for archer. Or is it better to describe it as more anti GAR for archer?

[Rater202]

Flat out disagrees with you Rater202. Archer is a heroic spirit, contracts with the world is just another way of becoming a heroic spirit instead of having a famous legend.

This is what I said--he's not a Heroic Spirit becuase he has a Heroic Legend, but becuase he sold his soul to the World.

How is that disagreeing with me? It's what I said.

[Ramza00]

This is what I said--he's not a Heroic Spirit becuase he has a Heroic Legend, but becuase he sold his soul to the World.

How is that disagreeing with me? It's what I said.

Okay I see how you parse your sentence and where you put the air gaps in the sentence (aka things like commas) and this modify the intended meaning. Okay I am not just quibbling not with you but instead written language for sometimes sentences when written down are not as clear as verbal words for saying the same content. This is not really your fault but you can read your sentence you wrote down two different ways depending on how you do those air gaps and voice inflections and get two different meanings from the same words.

Carry on.

[khadgar567]

I think there is three canon ways to become heroic spirit in fate

1. be ballsy enough to world to recocnize you
2. deal with the world to become its agent
3. host some sort of grail level power( rin hosts ishtar and Irisviel holds whole grails power which makes sakura to can act as servant)
4. kuro von einzbern style self wish granting

[Ramza00]

I think there is three canon ways to become heroic spirit in fate

1. be ballsy enough to world to recocnize you
2. deal with the world to become its agent
3. host some sort of grail level power( rin hosts ishtar and Irisviel holds whole grails power which makes sakura to can act as servant)
4. kuro von einzbern style self wish granting

I think you are trying to troll me aren't you?

[khadgar567]

I think you are trying to troll me aren't you?

unintentionally yes. I dont even know what beef you are having with others.

[Rater202]

I think there is three canon ways to become heroic spirit in fate

1. be ballsy enough to world to recocnize you
2. deal with the world to become its agent
3. host some sort of grail level power( rin hosts ishtar and Irisviel holds whole grails power which makes sakura to can act as servant)
4. kuro von einzbern style self wish granting

Rin as ishtar is a Psudoservant. Ishtar is the Servant, Rin is just hosting her. The reverse is true in the case of Lord El-Melloi II and that one dude whose name I keep forgetting how to spell.

I'd also argue that Caster! Irisiviel/Dress of Heaven is a special case.

Chloe von Einzbern is a miracle and a unique existence who just sort of randomly happened as a result of unrepeatable events. I'm honestly not sure if "Servant" is even the right word to use to describe her since she shows's behaviors and demonstrates needs of a physical human being despite being a spirit--she's most similar to a Pseudo-servant in that she's a fusion of two entities and the resulting combination has abillities that her compoents lack, but...

[Ramza00]

unintentionally yes. I dont even know what beef you are having with others.

(Okay you are not trying to troll me, to get me to write a long explanation, in order to just get me to waste my time and then laugh haha, you honestly care)

I have no beef with specific people.

We really do not know what it takes to be a heroic spirit from a formalistic / formula perspective for the Type Moon writers ^{(such as Kinoko Nasu the writer of the two people duo who first created the Type Moon universe before creating a company and then expanding the company, and this is where we get the term Nasuverse)} keep on changing it and they never formalistic put out the rules of what it takes to be a heroic spirit and so on.

Sure we get narrators inside the story of the type moon universe explain partial understandings of the rules but these narrators are also unreliable story tellers for they do not understand everything they are explaining and part of how the story telling goes is there is a big "reveal" where we found out character X is an unreliable narrator but was not trying to be an unreliable narrator they were telling what they thought was literally true but they had an incomplete understanding of the greater universe.

In fact this is a theme of the nasuverse, anybody that says they understand the world, understand the whole entire complicated thing that is this planet, with all its organisms, all its people, all its culture, all its atoms, and so on...well they understand nothing if they claim this.

unintentionally yes. I dont even know what beef you are having with others.

While I do not have any personal beef, many people spread incomplete information, and/or their personal opinions, and/or information we find out later was purposefully given to us in an unreliable format as a narrative element, for the unreliable narrator is a narrative technique and sometimes the author purposefully wants to do an unreliable narrator only to do a reveal later showing the narrator was unreliable, and thus we get people who are spreading misinformation yet believe it to be true for they have not read the end of the story yet.

The nasuverse is just so big, and so complicated, and has so many works, and the works are not originally English that this type of stuff is kind of inevitable.

------

But here is some entries that are as close to impartial and formalistic we can get that explain what it takes to be a heroic spirit.

Note I will edit / redact some of this stuff for spoilers

Spoiler: Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: Heroic Spirits (Circumstances), p.056

Show

Heroic Spirits (Circumstances)
The Heroes who achieved great deeds and were worshiped after death became Heroic Spirits.

They were the greatest existences amongst the forces that safeguarded humanity. In terms of classification, they were not Wrath, but closer to Faeries.

Faeries were materialized forces using the imagination of humans as framework, while Heroic Spirits were woven purely from the ideals of humans through and through.

Amongst Heroic Spirits, there were ones who existed in legends, ones who actually lived, and ones who were never observed. Those who were rarely worshiped were included in the classification of "Counter Guardians", and were utilized as an unconscious Counter Force.

...[redacted]...

Other Heroic Spirits were aligned with the planet rather than humanity, due to their high divinity.

Counter Guardians were not within this category.

Spoiler: Fate/complete material III: World material - Records of Heavens Feel - Servant System: Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants, p.012

Show

Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants

Heroic Spirits were Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death and become subjects of belief.

Normally, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by the world as power that protects humans.

The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.

The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.

[image]https://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/typemoon/images/5/56/Thrones_of_Heroes_diagram.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20131001103333[/image]


Birth of Heroic Spirits

It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War,

[…redacted…]

Those who have become Heroic Spirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.


Heroic Spirit summoning

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.

Spoiler: FGO character interlude, the name of the character is redacted due to Spoilers

Show

[…redacted…] : As a rule, Heroic Spirits can be classified on a grand scale into four categories. Those are "Man", "Earth", "Heavens" and "Star".

[…redacted…] : Ever since Christian Era, the "Man" category indicates great men who contributed to humanity and were regarded as heroes, becoming common knowledge.

[…redacted…] : While cases of those who were truly super-humans while alive also exist, these are basically Heroic Spirits who were deified by the general public after death.

[…redacted…] : Andersen, Shakespeare, Robin and Miss Nightingale can be raised as examples.

[…redacted…] : Next is the "Earth" category. These are heroes told about in indigenous fantastic folklore, but...

[…redacted…] : ...and here is the important part. The fourth category: "Star".

[…redacted…] : Neither Heavens, Earth or Man. A hope from mankind. A symbol of overcoming hardships.

[…redacted…] : This might appear as an omnipotent attribute that possesses no minus towards any other categories, but its true nature lies elsewhere.

[…redacted…] : There is a category that rivals this "Star". It is the fifth..

Since that character interlude we finally found out what that 5th type of heroic spirit. But I will not talk about it for it is MASSIVE FGO SPOILERS and for the most part it is not a common form of heroic spirit so lets not talk about this uncommon form of heroic spirit.

Spoiler: Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Counter Force (Others), p.041-042

Show

Counter Force

The Counter Force here is the safety device formed by the collective unconsciousness.

The prayer to avert the demise of mankind, Alaya.

And the prayer to extend the life of the planet, Gaia.

These are the two aspect of the Counter Force.

Both aspects have the goal of extending the existence of the current World. They will eradicate the factors that threaten to destroy the World at the moment of their occurance.

Since the Counter Force is the unconscious, its appearance draws no attention, and no one will recognize it.

The Counter Force is a formless spiral of power. It adjusts its scale based on the target that needs to be obliterated. The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory.

Normally, the Counter Force empowers "a normal person" to remove the factor that can trigger destruction. As a result, these individuals are worshiped as "Heroes".

Individuals who became Heroes through the aspect of Alaya are said to be integrated into Alaya after death. However, the accuracy of this statement is uncertain.

These individuals are also called Counter Guardians. The emphasis here is "Counter", because they have no autonomy and will only activate in response to an event.

[Gastronomie]

I'm a fan of Nasu's works and I respect him, but I'm still convinced there's no use thinking about strict logic in Nasuverse since Nasu himself is probably vague with a lot of the material in there. He changes what he's saying all the time, and most of the time the reason is nothing other than "rule of cool". And he also says that all rules have exceptions.

…And almost every single major character in Nasuverse happens to be an exception.

[Ramza00]

I'm a fan of Nasu's works and I respect him, but I'm still convinced there's no use thinking about strict logic in Nasuverse since Nasu himself is probably vague with a lot of the material in there. He changes what he's saying all the time, and most of the time the reason is nothing other than "rule of cool". And he also says that all rules have exceptions.

…And almost every single major character in Nasuverse happens to be an exception.

Amen to that.

Nothing that is logical matters in the Nasuverse, but once nothing matters...than everything matters and this happens.



Aka this XKCD



https://xkcd.com/167/

Note that XKCD calls comic 167 via the title nihilism. I think the title of 167 should be nihilism and then the word nihlism crossed out and then next to the cross out word the new word absurdism is written. I would argue that nihilism if the person survives and given enough time always leads to Absurdism, aka nihilism is just a transitory state, for Absurdism is what springs out where you take delight in life despite the pain, despite, everything, you are able to find joy in the meaninglessness of it all and suddenly you find out that individual meaning is where meaning is born from and not the world itself.

Aka Kierkegaard, Camus, and other people such as those philosophers I just mention who write on existential despair, and the concept of absurdism.

[khadgar567]

Spoiler: Lets make this threat little bit more safe for work shal ve some answers to your comments

Show

Rin as ishtar is a Psudoservant. Ishtar is the Servant, Rin is just hosting her. The reverse is true in the case of Lord El-Melloi II and that one dude whose name I keep forgetting how to spell.

hosts so she can be with his boy friend

I'd also argue that Caster! Irisiviel/Dress of Heaven is a special case.

I dont think so because we can summon her in caldea as servant and thanks to garcher whole servant system is iffy from the start

Chloe von Einzbern is a miracle and a unique existence who just sort of randomly happened as a result of unrepeatable events. I'm honestly not sure if "Servant" is even the right word to use to describe her since she shows's behaviors and demonstrates needs of a physical human being despite being a spirit--she's most similar to a Pseudo-servant in that she's a fusion of two entities and the resulting combination has abillities that her compoents lack, but...

here is the think cloe's fluff disagrees with you she was the core personality of ilya just sealed to keep ilya from dying from power melt down. and thaks to both holy grail and her cres0ts power both girls grant themselfs a wish which for cloe is to get out of her jail and for ilya to have a friend( ilya again pulls subconcious wish granting to sakura by half sealing her grail prana so she can support whole fuyuki servants( her new friends) as permanent battery so

did we agree or not

[Gastronomie]

Thinking back about "exceptions":

Spoiler: WARNING: Lots of major spoilers for Fate/stay Night

Show

Saber Team
Emiya Shirou: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that Origins cannot be changed after birth, and the rule that no one except Imaginary Demons can own Reality Marbles
Saber: Exceptional in how she breaks the rule that Servants must be dead; she's technically still alive. She is also exceptional in how she breaks the rule that she cannot spiritualize her body (due to her unique circumstances mentioned above)

Archer Team
Tousaka Rin: Exceptional in how she is a genius Magus who controls all five elements
Archer: Exceptional in how he's a Counter-Guardian who came from the future, and in how he and his former form in life are existing at the exact same time, and also in how he breaks the rule that all Servants have Noble Phantasms (technically he doesn’t). And oh, he also breaks the rule that no one except Imaginary Demons can own Reality Marbles, and the rule that Origins do not change after birth. Coincidence.

Lancer Team
Kotomine Kirei: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that the Supervisor cannot enter the Grail War. In other words, he’s a cheater. And he is also exceptional in how he’s technically already dead, and breaks the rule that peoples’ hearts generally... well, move
Lancer: Exceptionally bad luck This guy might actually be the only one “normal” guy in this show.

Rider Team
Matou Shinji: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that non-Magus cannot become Masters
Matou Sakura: Exceptional in how she is a genius Magus who controls the Imaginary Element
Rider: Exceptional in how she’s not a Heroic Spirit, but rather a monster

Caster Team
Kuzuki Souichirou: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that normal people cannot beat up Servants head-on
Caster: Exceptional in how it is mentioned she’s so much of a genius that she can fix the Holy Grail and get rid of All the World’s Evil if she were to ever obtain it
Assassin: Exceptional in how he’s actually not even a Heroic Spirit in the first place, and thus doesn’t have a Noble Phantasm either

True Assassin Team
Matou Zouken: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that people generally cannot live for like, what, hundreds of years
True Assassin: Exceptional in how he was summoned by eating through the body of Fake Assassin and what is this I don’t even

Berserker Team
Illyasviel von Einzbern: Exceptional in how she’s a Homunculus, and is also the Grail of the war itself
Berserker: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that people die if killed

Yeah, pretty much everyone is exceptional.

[khadgar567]

Thinking back about "exceptions":

Spoiler: WARNING: Lots of major spoilers for Fate/stay Night

Show

Saber Team
Emiya Shirou: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that Origins cannot be changed after birth, and the rule that no one except Imaginary Demons can own Reality Marbles
Saber: Exceptional in how she breaks the rule that Servants must be dead; she's technically still alive. She is also exceptional in how she breaks the rule that she cannot spiritualize her body (due to her unique circumstances mentioned above)

Archer Team
Tousaka Rin: Exceptional in how she is a genius Magus who controls all five elements
Archer: Exceptional in how he's a Counter-Guardian who came from the future, and in how he and his former form in life are existing at the exact same time, and also in how he breaks the rule that all Servants have Noble Phantasms (technically he doesn’t). And oh, he also breaks the rule that no one except Imaginary Demons can own Reality Marbles, and the rule that Origins do not change after birth. Coincidence.

Lancer Team
Kotomine Kirei: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that the Supervisor cannot enter the Grail War. In other words, he’s a cheater. And he is also exceptional in how he’s technically already dead, and breaks the rule that peoples’ hearts generally... well, move
Lancer: Exceptionally bad luck This guy might actually be the only one “normal” guy in this show.

Rider Team
Matou Shinji: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that non-Magus cannot become Masters
Matou Sakura: Exceptional in how she is a genius Magus who controls the Imaginary Element
Rider: Exceptional in how she’s not a Heroic Spirit, but rather a monster

Caster Team
Kuzuki Souichirou: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that normal people cannot beat up Servants head-on
Caster: Exceptional in how it is mentioned she’s so much of a genius that she can fix the Holy Grail and get rid of All the World’s Evil if she were to ever obtain it
Assassin: Exceptional in how he’s actually not even a Heroic Spirit in the first place, and thus doesn’t have a Noble Phantasm either

True Assassin Team
Matou Zouken: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that people generally cannot live for like, what, hundreds of years
True Assassin: Exceptional in how he was summoned by eating through the body of Fake Assassin and what is this I don’t even

Berserker Team
Illyasviel von Einzbern: Exceptional in how she’s a Homunculus, and is also the Grail of the war itself
Berserker: Exceptional in how he breaks the rule that people die if killed

Yeah, pretty much everyone is exceptional.

so yeah there is no balance or rules to stop me from pulling mech user as rider or my caster can summon seven more servants along with my six summones

Spoiler: read at your own danger

Show

ow and from grand order
protagonist
exeption that he contracts with whole new servant class and exception of you can only summon single servant( bastard basicly summons entire throne of heroes durring his rein
again before forgetting
apocyptia
red team
servants cant summon servant ( church dude summons semiramis as servant) and servants cant posses suitable humans

[Gastronomie]

so yeah there is no balance or rules to stop me from pulling mech user as rider or my caster can summon seven more servants along with my six summones

That's pretty much what Gilgamesh as Caster did in Chapter 7 of FGO. Well, to be exact stuff's a bit different (the mana in the world is much thicker than it is in the present, and Gil back then is not a servant), but technically it's possible.

The main thing is, really, whether it's cool or not. If it's cool, Nasu gives it a go, but not before giving the reader/viewer some explanation about the logic behind it.

Simply making stuff exceptional for the sake of making it exceptional is a completely different matter whatsoever.

(I would prefer if you used correct grammar and punctuation though; hard to read.)

[khadgar567]

That's pretty much what Gilgamesh as Caster did in Chapter 7 of FGO. Well, to be exact stuff's a bit different (the mana in the world is much thicker than it is in the present, and Gil back then is not a servant), but technically it's possible.

well thats good for eventual sakura as servant plots if some one wants to use and can be quite op if she chooses the servants carefully to maximase her potencial

ow and she dont needs noble phantasm of her self cuz thanks to grand order you can summon complate support servants like scheherazade

[Ramza00]

khadagar567 man use spoiler blocks, you just spoiled both FGO and Fate Apocrypha.