Hel vs. The Dark One

[AchtungNight]

I recently raised the issue in the strip #1081 feedback thread that Hel's character is similar to the Dark One's. Both are evil gods. Both are seeking to overthrow the rest of the gods and increase their own power in doing so. Both have the rationalization that they have been given a raw deal in the past and deserve a better deal for their worshippers.

I wanted to create this thread to discuss the issue further if people are interested. I have limited time, so I may or may not participate much. If there is already a thread devoted to the issue of which I am unaware, I apologize and the admins may do with this thread as they will. If people are not interested in the discussion, fine, they can let the thread die through inattention. If you do care, your constructively stated opinion is welcomed.

My personal opinions regarding this- I find the Dark One more interesting than Hel and a better villain. He's been around longer, he has an understandable motivation even though he's evil, and he has not corrupted my favorite OOtS member into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self. I don't think he deserves to win- reasons for this include that in the ideal universe no evil race that practices things like slavery and human sacrifice should have power, and Redcloak needs to face the consequences of his actions in the real world as well as in his own mind- but like other fantasy villains with similar understandable motivations (good examples include Magneto and Tad Williams' Storm King), the Dark One's psychology makes him more intriguing and you want to see him win a little even if he should lose overall.

Hel- I don't know. Do all races deserve a fair share of power in the world? If good undead creatures existed in the OOtS World as well as bad, then yes, maybe. But we haven't seen any good undead except Soon and the Ghost-Martyrs and one exception does not merit a change to the rule. Virtually all undead in this world are evil and bent on the destruction of life as we know it. Malik and Undurkon seemed different at first, but they were ultimately proven evil beyond doubt. If we had more good undead in this world along with the bad, as there are in some universes (Buffy-verse, Marvel's Blade, even classic D&D), I might be willing to give undead a chance at their fair share. But as it is, I'm not. Hel needs to be brought down. Durkon needs to be resurrected and restored to the party. This arc needs to end. I will be happy when it does, and I'm not sure I'll like it if Hel wins even a little bit.

If the Dark One wins some concessions for his goblins, that's fine by me. Jirix, Right-Eye, even Redcloak before his fall (read Start of Darkness and the comic to watch that fall), they deserve some good things in their future. If goblins can give up evil, slavery, human sacrifice, etc, and live in harmony with other races, I would be okay with them getting a better deal in life. Does the Dark One really want that? Would he go too far and confuse equality with power? It may be interesting to watch and find out. Regardless, it's clear that Hel wants power, not equality, and evil, not good. Thus she needs to lose, sooner the better. And Thrym really should look for a more deserving love interest.

[Jasdoif]

....and he has not corrupted my favorite OOtS member into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self.

You do realize Malack didn't worship Hel, right?

[Nephrahim]

I was also thinking of this exact thing, but it seems like the latest comic attempts to foil that view, at least slightly, by portraying Hel as a god who has no interest in EARNING worship, she just WANTS it. The goblins seem to have a stronger case, so far, although there could be more to them then we know as well.

[thereaper]

An important thing to understand is that there have been a lot of hints in the prequels that the Dark One does not have goblinkind's best interests at heart, and that the Plan has actually made things worse for them. So, he and Hel are actually even more alike than they initially appear.

[Mic_128]

An important thing to understand is that there have been a lot of hints in the prequels that the Dark One does not have goblinkind's best interests at heart, and that the Plan has actually made things worse for them.

In the short run, yes. In the long run, when he can bargain for a fair treatment of his people, no.

That's the other thing. Hel wants to rule supreme. The Dark One (as far as we know) wants to simply blackmail his way to earning fair treatment for Goblinoids.

[Mordaedil]

He's also the only deity with a purple aura, which means he's his own pantheon.

I reckon this might mean Hel might bite it to the Snarl, though after all we know, I kinda hope the Dark One's plan actually pans out. What else would it all have been for, otherwise?

[thereaper]

In the short run, yes. In the long run, when he can bargain for a fair treatment of his people, no.

That's the other thing. Hel wants to rule supreme. The Dark One (as far as we know) wants to simply blackmail his way to earning fair treatment for Goblinoids.

This is what Redcloak claims.

Spoiler

Show

SoD suggests otherwise.

[WoodStock_PV]

This is what Redcloak claims.

Spoiler

Show

SoD suggests otherwise.

SoD spoilers below.
I don't remember that part in SoD, to which one ar you refering? As far as I know the Dark One IS motivated by revenge, but he also wants, as much as, to promote goblinkind, his speech to the human kings indicate this.
One thing I noted is that Right-eye had a good life at the Goblin Village, a job, house, loving family, etc. (maybe they were impoverished, but we don't see any of that apart from the terrain type being dirt) and the Hobgoblins they recruited before the Azure city siege also had some sort of good life (an impressive city with fortifications, big walls, roads and, from what we've seen from the hobos, societal structure (in other words, culture). The same thing applies, maybe they were impoverished, but we did not actually saw that (again only the terrain type indicated poverty). What I'm getting at is that maybe the plan is not the best thing in the world for goblinoids, but you should not confuse a bad or flawed plan for not caring with the goblins in general.
The way I see things the goblins (the Dark One mostly) are like an animal cornered (is he cornered? Dunno, but he feels like he is), it has nothing to lose so it will try to take his foe with him.
I didn't mean for the above post to be rude ^^'. Also, sorry for any english mistakes. o/

[MReav]

Hel- I don't know. Do all races deserve a fair share of power in the world? If good undead creatures existed in the OOtS World as well as bad, then yes, maybe. But we haven't seen any good undead except Soon and the Ghost-Martyrs and one exception does not merit a change to the rule. Virtually all undead in this world are evil and bent on the destruction of life as we know it.

Well, Eugene is a ghost and he technically qualifies as good.

[Riftwolf]

Well, Eugene is a ghost and he technically qualifies as good.

Technically, he's not undead. Just dead.
Where exactly you draw that lines been debated since Edgar Allen Poe, however.

[Jasdoif]

One thing I noted is that Right-eye had a good life at the Goblin Village, a job, house, loving family, etc. (maybe they were impoverished, but we don't see any of that apart from the terrain type being dirt) and the Hobgoblins they recruited before the Azure city siege also had some sort of good life (an impressive city with fortifications, big walls, roads and, from what we've seen from the hobos, societal structure (in other words, culture).

Exactly. Right-Eye's village was doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them all killed to serve the Plan

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

by murdering his brother instead of Xykon, who'd made a habit of killing them at his whim

. The Hobgoblin Legion were doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them to take over Azure City and take a bunch of losses in the process.

It appears as though Redcloak is rather into actively promoting the deaths of the goblins he's supposedly serving the interests of. It's apparently not enough of a problem for the Dark One to do anything about it, either.

[TidePriestess]

Exactly. Right-Eye's village was doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them all killed to serve the Plan

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

by murdering his brother instead of Xykon, who'd made a habit of killing them at his whim

. The Hobgoblin Legion were doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them to take over Azure City and take a bunch of losses in the process.

It appears as though Redcloak is rather into actively promoting the deaths of the goblins he's supposedly serving the interests of. It's apparently not enough of a problem for the Dark One to do anything about it, either.

To be fair, the hobgoblins did get to take out their main enemy and claim an actual nation; certainly, all of them who've expressed an opinion about the Azure City conquest have felt positively about it.

[Jasdoif]

To be fair, the hobgoblins did get to take out their main enemy and claim an actual nation; certainly, all of them who've expressed an opinion about the Azure City conquest have felt positively about it.

To be fair, the Dark One's still ready to throw their lives away in pursuit of power, supposedly for their equality...well, aside from the ones that already died taking over Azure City, which was done for that pursuit of power anyway.

Besides which, Hel's on course to take out her main enemy and claim an actual dominion; certainly, all her expressed opinions about the end of the world have positive feelings

[TidePriestess]

To be fair, the Dark One's still ready to throw their lives away in pursuit of power, supposedly for their equality...well, aside from the ones that already died taking over Azure City, which was done for that pursuit of power anyway.

Besides which, Hel's on course to take out her main enemy and claim an actual dominion; certainly, all her expressed opinions about the end of the world have positive feelings

Right, but all the ones who die join the Dark One's army, which for the legions, seems like a lateral move at worst.

[Jasdoif]

Right, but all the ones who die join the Dark One's army, which for the legions, seems like a lateral move at worst.

Well, I guess it's possible those hobgoblins believe their lives are worthless except as the Dark One's tools....Doesn't really seem conducive to claims of seeking equality, though.

[woweedd]

Well, I guess it's possible those hobgoblins believe their lives are worthless except as the Dark One's tools....Doesn't really seem conducive to claims of seeking equality, though.

Redcloak is suffering from the world's most massive Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's sacrificed so much for The Plan, from his brother to thousands of hobgoblins, that giving up now would, in his mind, be tantamount to letting them die in vain. He can't acknowledge that he's wrong because of what his being wrong would imply. Namely, that he's been spending years, aiding in the plans of a megalomaniac Lich and throwing away who knows how many Goblinoid lives, for nothing.

[TidePriestess]

Redcloak is suffering from the world's most massive Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's sacrificed so much for The Plan, form his brother to thousands of hobgoblins, that giving up now would, in his mind, be tantamount to letting them die in vain. He can't acknowledge that he's wrong because of what his being wrong would imply. Namely, that he's been spending years, aiding in the plans of a megalomaniac Lich and throwing away who knows how many Goblinoid lives, for nothing.

I honestly want Redcloak to win, at least partially. Not necessarily from fulfilling the Plan; possibly realizing that the Dark One isn't worth following, and that he needs to follow a new path to help the goblinoid people. But I very much don't want him to die in vain either way.

[woweedd]

I honestly want Redcloak to win, at least partially. Not necessarily from fulfilling the Plan; possibly realizing that the Dark One isn't worth following, and that he needs to follow a new path to help the goblinoid people. But I very much don't want him to die in vain either way.

I think Redcloak is gonna die. Whether he's gonna die in vain? Still up for debate. I think Rich is going to resolve the Goblinoid question at some point, but Redcloak probably won't be the one to resolve it.

[Jasdoif]

Redcloak is suffering from the world's most massive Sunk Cost Fallacy. He's sacrificed so much for The Plan, form his brother to thousands of hobgoblins, that giving up now would, in his mind, be tantamount to letting them die in vain. He can't acknowledge that he's wrong because of what his being wrong would imply. Namely, that he's been spending years, aiding in the plans of a megalomaniac Lich and throwing away who knows how many Goblinoid lives, for nothing.

Precisely. He's compelled to complete the Plan, for his own peace of mind. Redcloak's utterly convinced he has to be the one to bring equality to the goblin people. No matter how many of them have to die, or how much of their own progress towards equality he has to destroy, to do it.

That's the Dark One's favored agent. It's a little difficult to take (Redcloak's claims of) the Dark One's claims of wanting "equality for the goblin people" seriously when "the goblin people are expendable" is on display like that.

[TidePriestess]

Precisely. He's compelled to complete the Plan, for his own peace of mind. Redcloak's utterly convinced he has to be the one to bring equality to the goblin people. No matter how many of them have to die, or how much of their own progress towards equality he has to destroy, to do it.

That's the Dark One's favored agent. It's a little difficult to take (Redcloak's claims of) the Dark One's claims of wanting "equality for the goblin people" seriously when "the goblin people are expendable" is on display like that.

That's just par for the course for gods, at least for half of them (all of them who were in favor of destroying the world).

[Jasdoif]

That's just par for the course for gods, at least for half of them (all of them who were in favor of destroying the world).

Is there a point in there somewhere? I'm not seeing one.

[halfeye]

That's the Dark One's favored agent. It's a little difficult to take (Redcloak's claims of) the Dark One's claims of wanting "equality for the goblin people" seriously when "the goblin people are expendable" is on display like that.

Stalin was a god?!

[Mic_128]

Exactly. Right-Eye's village was doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them all killed to serve the Plan

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.

The Hobgoblin Legion were doing pretty well, and then Redcloak got them to take over Azure City and take a bunch of losses in the process.

At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.

It appears as though Redcloak is rather into actively promoting the deaths of the goblins he's supposedly serving the interests of. It's apparently not enough of a problem for the Dark One to do anything about it, either.

Yes, he was until he realised he was like Xykon during the attack on Azure City. Since then he's been caring about his hobgoblin cousins.

Other than "Redcloak did some shades of grey stuff and The Dark One's orders had a few goblins die" what evidence do you have that the Dark One is lying about his desires?

[woweedd]

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.

At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.



Yes, he was until he realised he was like Xykon during the attack on Azure City. Since then he's been caring about his hobgoblin cousins.

Other than "Redcloak did some shades of grey stuff and The Dark One's orders had a few goblins die" what evidence do you have that the Dark One is lying about his desires?

Even if Redcloak believe that his goal really is best for the Goblin people, the way he's going about it is...not the best. Sadly, he's in too deep now. Even if he wanted to quit, he couldn't.

[Jasdoif]

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.

Pretty sure the Sapphire Guard doesn't serve Hel, so I'm not sure what your point here is.

At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.

All true. And yet, Redcloak's back on the "risk the entire world to hope for concessions from the gods" Plan. Something much closer to "doom" now that the sole remaining Gate is responsible for the gods not having destroyed the world already.

Yes, he was until he realised he was like Xykon during the attack on Azure City. Since then he's been caring about his hobgoblin cousins.

He likes not having to kill them personally, at least.

Other than "Redcloak did some shades of grey stuff and The Dark One's orders had a few goblins die" what evidence do you have that the Dark One is lying about his desires?

Frankly? We don't really know what the Dark One's desires are, because he hasn't made a personal appearance in the comic the way Hel has. Everything attributed to him has been from subjective tales told by someone else, principally Redcloak (who as mentioned has reasons for pursuing the Plan independently from anything to do with goblin people). The only evidence there really is, is that none of the things Redcloak has done for/to the goblins have caused the Dark One to revoke his clerical powers.

Also, I'm not sure phrasing "murdering his brother in favor of the lich who enslaved his village" as "some shades of grey stuff" is particularly accurate.

[thereaper]

And their village before that was doing fine until the Saphire Guard came and nearly wiped them out.

At which point they now have an actual soverign nation, complete with treaties with other nations and races. That's a big step up and a serious step towards the Dark One's goals of having Goblinoids treated like other races.

Which was also a result of the Plan.

The goblins of Right-Eye's village were treated like other races, so much so that they went to the same circus as humans and everyone was apparently fine with it. They were even allowed "backstage" to see the MitD.

[dps]

That's just par for the course for gods, at least for half of them (all of them who were in favor of destroying the world).

At least one of the gods who voted in favor of destroying the world did so on the grounds that the souls of mortals are too precious to allow the Snarl to unmake them.

[unbeliever536]

To be fair, the Dark One's still ready to throw their lives away in pursuit of power, supposedly for their equality...well, aside from the ones that already died taking over Azure City, which was done for that pursuit of power anyway.

Besides which, Hel's on course to take out her main enemy and claim an actual dominion; certainly, all her expressed opinions about the end of the world have positive feelings

I think it depends on how you take his message to Redcloak in #704, and how much of the plan you think was the Dark One's rather than his mortal priests'. The obvious reading is, "we're getting down to the last couple of gates, don't fail to execute my plan", but you could also read it as, "if you keep getting millions of goblins killed with nothing to show for it, we're going to have to back to the drawing board, because this plan is closing in on 'not worth it'."

[B. Dandelion]

I think it depends on how you take his message to Redcloak in #704, and how much of the plan you think was the Dark One's rather than his mortal priests'. The obvious reading is, "we're getting down to the last couple of gates, don't fail to execute my plan", but you could also read it as, "if you keep getting millions of goblins killed with nothing to show for it, we're going to have to back to the drawing board, because this plan is closing in on 'not worth it'."

Again!? Damn it, this was just a few days ago!

The only real way to read it that way is to focus on the potential ambiguity to the total detriment of common sense and surrounding context. It's a twist in search of a plot that would give it meaning.

The book 5 commentary actually did mention that moment and said it was Redcloak "not being let off the hook for his god's evil plans for the Gates" among other things that make it clear that no, the Dark One is not at all expressing any possible concern for goblin lives lost, as I have... rather vehemently listed elsewhere recently. But that one is probably the most definitive.

[martianmister]

Dark One is basically God version of Redcloak. I can't see him anything independent of Redcloak.

My personal opinions regarding this- I find the Dark One more interesting than Hel and a better villain. He's been around longer, he has an understandable motivation even though he's evil, and he has not corrupted my favorite OOtS member into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self.

Well..he has corrupted my favorite OotS character into a bland disturbing shadow of his former self, but I still like him.