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Thread: Armor designs for females?
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2017-07-20, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2016
Re: Armor designs for females?
Why do people assume breasts are magic like that? Just having a bare chest in front of you, especially in a life-or-death situation really isn't particularly distracting. Especially when this bare chest belongs to someone currently trying to kill or injure you. (And thanks to larping, I can even say that with experience... And even the straight men who were with us had no problems pushing the "oh, breasts!" reflex aside for combat situations.)
You're bi, so a bit of attraction to androgyny might be par for the course. (Works this way for me, at least...)
...To be fair, I'd need to know more about your taste in men to actually qualify this.
While I do understand the wish for chest support, Modern-style bras just kinda tend to seem strange to me in medieval-style settings. Because of the need for elastic materials, which are at least a good bit anachronistic, mostly. Though I will accept things that basically look like a string of cloth pulled more or less tightly around the chest - since that is perfectly possible with even antique technology, and there is historical precedent for that being used.
Anything that looks just... loosely put there or forming distinct cups though tends to break my immersion at least a bit.
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2017-07-20, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: Armor designs for females?
Yeah, I do actually have an attraction to androgyny, I like pretty men and handsome women, it's just more pronounced one way (with women over men). It's also round faces that do it for me for both genders.
On the other hand, I know people who just couldn't care about gender when it comes to attraction, and are attracted to people all across the masculine/feminine spectrum. I've just come to view human attraction as a great big ball of confusing.
While I do understand the wish for chest support, Modern-style bras just kinda tend to seem strange to me in medieval-style settings. Because of the need for elastic materials, which are at least a good bit anachronistic, mostly. Though I will accept things that basically look like a string of cloth pulled more or less tightly around the chest - since that is perfectly possible with even antique technology, and there is historical precedent for that being used.
Anything that looks just... loosely put there or forming distinct cups though tends to break my immersion at least a bit.
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2017-07-20, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor designs for females?
Because typically the sight of something completely unexpected and out of place throws someone off for a moment, regardless of what it is. In my old group we used to bring the halfling's mastiff into all sorts of social situations where a dog was completely out of place, for the same reason. It worked surprisingly often, especially if we used illusions to turn him into a weird color.
Though I'm mainly humoring you at this point, since it seems I failed at conveying that initial comment was intended to be a joke.I say we can go where we want to, a place where they will never find. And we can act like we come from out of this world, leave the real one far behind. We can dance.
The Adventures of Amber Yarrowhill, IC and OOC
In the Hands of an Angry God June 2017 - November 2018. RIP.
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2017-07-20, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: Armor designs for females?
Oh, I know people don't "pop" in vacuum (that's a fact I love to teach to my DMs when they go crazy about the dangers of space-that-will-kill-you-instantlytm), but I thought a low pressure over the chest and abdominal cavities (and especially around the lungs) for extended periods of time were still bad ideas. I'm no specialist, so I'm probably wrong, though. :)
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2017-07-20, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Armor designs for females?
For the ridiculous space suits, it could be hand waived as being forcefield reinforced.
But the old adage "sex sells" is quite correct. Especially true for the audience trpg's generally tends to attract. So it's stupid silly, yes, but if an image of unrealistic sexy silly space suit girls increases my bottom line, I would include it.
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2017-07-20, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Armor designs for females?
I'm not in the habit of looking at those markers, it's very rarely relevant to the points being discussed.
My point was that going into a melee in something like a "sports bra"-like-thing is a very different thing in all sorts of ways than going into combat in a bikini top.
That's an interesting observation.
In examining this, I'd want to try to distinguish between authentic elements of armor, and stylistic anachronisms -- armor "skirts" of some sorts are certainly authentic period design elements for reasons of function and/or form.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-07-20, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
Re: Armor designs for females?
Low pressure over your chest and abdomen are very bad ideas, because while your skin can handle the pressure fine, your lungs can't. Human lungs have a low ability to handle greater interior than exterior pressure, so if your chest and abdomen is exposed to vacuum while your life-support system is still providing pressurized air to your lungs, your lungs will over-inflate and then rupture. This is why those spacesuit designs which rely on your skin to hold pressure against the vacuum still need to provide positive mechanical pressure over your chest and abdomen, to keep your body cavities properly pressurized and your lungs intact. So a spacesuit with a bare midriff is just never going to work.
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2017-07-20, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Armor designs for females?
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2017-07-20, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-07-21, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2016
Re: Armor designs for females?
I would argue not long enough to compensate your for your distraction - even throwing my cape at opponents usually only worked when it hit them square in the face and took their sight ;)
But, okay - yeah, I have seen this argument made in earnest one too many time to be able to just assume it a joke when there is no indicator^^
(Yeah, human attraction is just... Something. Beyond the joke I do know enough bi people for having known someone into pretty much every distribution imaginable. My comment was rather tongue-in cheek.)
Oh, this has less to do with reasearch and more to do with what "feels" right. I am sure research would go some way to destroy even my misconceptions - I for one know that I am dubious about accepting straps as a thing for these, but know that those date back to at least the 15th century. (Still would be wrong on barbarians, though)
And (not responding to the quoted parts anymore), sure, certain elements in Fantasy settings can explain more modern styles. But the fact that you can explain something doesn't take away the initial impulse of "uhm, what's that doing here", and that, for me is the problem. No matter how well something might be explained, if the first impulse is that it doesn't fit the rest of the setting, that will be the general impression.Last edited by Floret; 2017-07-21 at 06:27 PM.
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2017-07-21, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2017
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Re: Armor designs for females?
That's... disturbing and sad.
A large part of the problem is most likely that different people have such different triggers for that impulse, that it's practically impossible to create fantasy art that is guaranteed not to trigger it in anyone.I say we can go where we want to, a place where they will never find. And we can act like we come from out of this world, leave the real one far behind. We can dance.
The Adventures of Amber Yarrowhill, IC and OOC
In the Hands of an Angry God June 2017 - November 2018. RIP.
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2017-07-21, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor designs for females?
I agree.
I've found myself that if I try to analyze any piece of media (art/movie/book/etc) with that attitude ("why is that there? How does that even work?") I've lost the suspension of disbelief and lose interest. It means that I have a much better time with things that conspicuously don't take themselves seriously. If you try to tell me that it's a period-accurate artwork and make stupid mistakes, I'm out. On the other hand, if it's clear the art is a pastiche and not designed to be taken literally, I'm fine with it. For me, most "bad" fantasy art sends the message of "look how powerful/amazing/sexy/exotic I am" rather than "this is what I actually fight in." It's stylized with a particular (era-dependent) style. And I'm (mostly) fine with that. I'm not fond of the focus on the erotic that often occurs, but that's not for verisimilitude reasons but for personal moral reasons.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2017-07-21, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Armor designs for females?
I find that I'm kinda the opposite. I'd rather they at least try to be accurate and functional. And I really hate symbolism of the "look how powerful/amazing/sexy/exotic I am" sort -- especially as it gets sillier and less functional or just plan ignorant/idiotic.
If they really want to convey something about a character as a sexual being, they should just show them out of armor at some point in a scene where it makes sense for them to be out of armor and that fits in the story (rather than being gratuitous). If they can't fit it in to a natural point in the story and can't do it out of combat, I'd suggest that it's just not that important to the story and they should move on without it.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-07-21, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Armor designs for females?
Ok, well what if we have a character who has only two important character traits: Badass warrior & incredibly sexy.
Now, we are doing an illustration of that character for an RPG supplement, and we only have the space and the budget to dedicate a single image to any given character.
Wouldn't trying to somehow depict both facets of the character in the same image work better than completely indulging in one at the expense of the other?Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2017-07-21, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Armor designs for females?
Then I think you've got a 2d character who needs some work.
1) Don't do either at the expense of faithfulness to the setting.
2) Find a way to convey both that works them in together, and doesn't violate #1, and doesn't rely on cheap visual shorthand.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-07-21 at 09:59 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-07-21, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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2017-07-21, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Armor designs for females?
Talakeal: Use (semi-)realistic armor that also hints at sexiness. What sort of warrior is she? A pirate can show her shoulders, bare her midriff, wear tight pants, or have a shirt with a neckline just low enough to show a bit of her cleavage without being unfunctional. Not all armor is full plate.
You could also show her flirting with someone else, or otherwise showing that she acts with sexiness instead of just looking sexy. Any character can show charisma by offering a rose to the audience and winking, whether in a chainmail bikini or in full plate.Last edited by goto124; 2017-07-21 at 10:32 PM.
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2017-07-21, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2017
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Re: Armor designs for females?
I feel a need to interrupt the current tangential debate to point out that wearing something sexy does not automatically mean wearing something that bares a lot of skin.
That kind of cliche is just lazy.I say we can go where we want to, a place where they will never find. And we can act like we come from out of this world, leave the real one far behind. We can dance.
The Adventures of Amber Yarrowhill, IC and OOC
In the Hands of an Angry God June 2017 - November 2018. RIP.
My Player Registry Entry
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2017-07-21, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Armor designs for females?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-07-22, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
Re: Armor designs for females?
But as long as it isn't, people will still complain about it. And when it is, they'll complain some more.
Despite the fact that there is literally mountains of fantasy artwork that depicts characters modestly, both in and out of D&D, often in the same books (compare Mialee the Wizard's dress to Lidda the Rogue's outfit and Gimble's robes to Hennet's), people will always complain about whichever art grinds against their personal sensibilities and morals. Doesn't matter if those morals are based in some puritan religious belief, being religiously politically correct, or simply a personal quirk that drives them to piss in everyone else's cheerios.
You usually see the same tired reasons. It usually begins with some variation of "think of thechildrenwomen!", and then when lots of people rightfully note that lots of women eat it up as much or more than the dudes do, then it switches to "but historical accuracy / realism!" in a game where you have fantasy barbarians that can skydive onto asphalt and come away with a bruise, and fighting giant godlike super lizards who spit fire so hot that it can slag a suit of full plate in three seconds flat, where heroes wear armors that never existed in the first place (like studded leather), and being a higher level makes your skin more resistant to swords.
IMHO, consume the art you like, ignore the art you don't, and let others do the same. Or don't. At least as long as people are fighting about it, I get to loot kickass art from the crossfire. I found so many amazing Larry Elmdore pictures in this thread, lots of classic D&D stuff, and various sexy fantasy pinups that it would have rivaled an afternoon of pinterest searches.You are my God.
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2017-07-22, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
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- Its Complicated
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Re: Armor designs for females?
Eh while you couldn't make a modern sports bra without elastic, leather (especially certain types) has enough elasticity that you could use it to make a pretty decent bra. Nalebinding (kinda similar to crochet but much older) is older than the vikings and you could use that to make pseudo-knitted fabric with a certain amount of stretch. Underwires and cups are also possible using medieval sewing tech and we actually have evidence of female undergarments with cups by the 15th century. Heck you could even make underwires and install them without too much issue. All in all the equivalent to a sports bra is possible using medieval tech and materials, but it would not look like a bikini top exactly. Alternatively a laced up leather bodice, possibly with cups and underwires would be a pretty decent way to keep the bust from jiggling while adventuring and look sexy at the same time. Armor on top would help with the not dying from being stabbed part though.
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2017-07-22, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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- The Lakes
Re: Armor designs for females?
Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-07-22 at 08:18 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-07-22, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Armor designs for females?
Far from it. I'm calling them as I've seen 'em, time and time again, on this forum and others. It always comes down to the same things.
1. Someone bemoans that it's dude-centric.
A. People point out that girls like sexy girls too. Go figure.
2. So then it's all about historically accurate realism!
A. Except, that's a load of crap because nothing is historically accurate or realistic.
3. You think it looks ridiculous or it's stupid design (like with that goofy "space suit").
A. Cool, I agree with you. 100%. Someone else might like it though. It's not your aesthetic and that's cool.
It's demonstrably a load of crap. Time and time again. So then we come down to what's more likely and that's aesthetic appeal. Either due to personal, moral, or ethical quirk, you prefer X style are over Y style art. So far so peachy. But then, someone goes and tries to hoist that off onto other people, usually through some sort of appeal to emotion or morality.
I actually have the utmost respect for people that are honest and either admit that it's because of their personal views on morality, or a simple desire for a particular style. If you just don't want to see adventurers dressed like Conan or Sonya (D3 barbarian), that's cool. There's tons and I mean tons more art out there. If you don't want cutesy, or sexual, or grim, or high fantasy, or steampunk, or whatever, that's cool too. Just say so.
But lots of people do like those things and there's not a damn thing wrong with that.Last edited by Ashiel; 2017-07-22 at 11:18 AM.
You are my God.
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2017-07-22, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Armor designs for females?
So like I said, you're going to present the most slanted and insulting version of what people have actually said to you, and then pretend to know their motives better than they do.
You're treating everyone who disagrees with you as a single person, or as if they all speak with a single voice. Just because one person disagrees on objectification grounds, and someone else objects on practicality grounds, and someone else objects on historical grounds, and someone else objects on aesthetic grounds, and maybe those objections came in a certain order, doesn't mean it plays out in the manner you're asserting here.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-07-22 at 11:49 AM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-07-22, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-07-22, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-07-22, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: Armor designs for females?
I think this is the key thing.
I'll cop to it, I don't actually mind chainmail bikinis as such. I mind when it's one aesthetic for men and another for women, and this is normally fully clothed men with skin showing women.
Now there are some aesthetics I prefer, in my science fiction settings you're more likely to see shirts and trousers (for bother genders) over jumpsuits or spaceswimsuits. My spacesuits are also almost always tight padded affairs with helmets or fully enclosed powered armour. Heck, my universes tend to feature spaceships which are sleek but dull and slightly battered, not boxy.
If you don't like that you don't have to play in my science fiction universe, like I don't play in ones with overly stripperific aesthetics (barring obviously parodic ones).
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2017-07-22, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Armor designs for females?
Whose motives am I pretending to know? Hm?
Did I call anyone out? Did I do other than to say that, like many times before, I see the same ol' same ol' hashed out?
Tell me how it doesn't come down to simple stylistic preference if it is not predicated by some sense of moral principles. If I'm so wrong, why not tell me why I'm wrong, rather than being indignant and insulted on behalf of nobody.
You're treating everyone who disagrees with you as a single person, or as if they all speak with a single voice.
And who are the imaginary people that are being condensed into a single imaginary person, with one voice shouting many different things? Reveal this ghostly specter! Reveal it, that it might deliver the utmost highest truth, to cast down the one who disagrees with the non-existent.
Just because one person disagrees on objectification grounds, and someone else objects on practicality grounds, and someone else objects on historical grounds, and someone else objects on aesthetic grounds, and maybe those objections came in a certain order, doesn't mean it plays out in the manner you're asserting here.
Originally Posted by anonymous wizard
EDIT:
I lol'd.Last edited by Ashiel; 2017-07-22 at 12:17 PM.
You are my God.
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2017-07-22, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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Re: Armor designs for females?
Obviously its a 2d character, I stripped it down to bare-bones for the example.
For #1 what do you mean by faithfulness to the setting? In most fantasy settings impractical armor is a part of the setting, so are you saying to make sure to go with the same aestetic, or are you saying the entire setting is cheapened by having impractical armor?
#2 Is ideal, but my point was that it is a lot easier said than done.
Sexiness is not sexuality. While it is obviously in the eye of the beholder, seeing someone flirting with people and offering them flowers is, to me, going to greatly diminish how sexy someone is.
The problem is that people object to armor designs for so many different reasons, and the people doing the objecting are not unified in their views. Thus every discussion about this topic tends to go in a circle with the goalposts constantly shifting from one topic to another before they can really be analyzed.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2017-07-22, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: Armor designs for females?
That's the thing -- when someone is going into a situation wearing an outfit that will get them killed, simply because said outfit is supposedly "sexy", then objectively, there's an issue.
Going into hard vacuum in a getup that offers no protection is stupid... objectively stupid.
Going into combat wearing a "sexy" getup that offers no protection from the weapons being used, no camouflage, no utility, nothing useful at all... objectively stupid.
When an artist show me a character who's doing objectively stupid things, they're not telling me the character sexy or confident or whatever... they're telling me that the character is an idiot, or ignorant, or insane, or has a death wish.
I honestly don't understand how "this character is going to die" is sexy to begin with.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.