Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown

[Hackulator]

I'm sorry I don't have the time to set up a roll20 game for this right now. If someone else wants to do it however, feel free.

[The Viscount]

We could just do a PbP here, since neither of us is really capable of anything complicated, right?

[Jormengand]

Oh I had meant if you're playing a regular game against monsters and encounters, that the soulknife's ability in scouting and maneuverability will lend it to be more useful to the party than the samurai, who can fight monsters and then maybe do a little social if they have the points.

I hate to ask, but what maneuverability? They don't have a monk's movement bonus or SFAD, they have... climb and jump, whereas the samurai has ride, and the samurai has the most powerful skill in the game alongside the ability to do their actual job.

[The Viscount]

They have jump and tumble, 4 ranks so they might actually put some into those and/or Hide/MS, as well as a +10 movement speed from speed of thought, since they don't need to use their focus.

Anybody up to take the helm here?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Just a quick note about ColorBlindNinja's Samurai: It looks like you're going all in on the Crystal Helm Soulmeld to gain its "All Melee attacks are Force attacks" chakra bind effect, which is cool. Just remember that you're not going to get the +2 to Will Saves; Crystal Helm gives a resistance bonus and you've got a Cloak of Resistance +5.

I know, I just shaped it so I can attack incorporeal creatures.

Soulknife can indeed neutralize the samurai's calling card, but the Samurai can do the same, and mind-affecting immunity is a fairly normal thing to acquire by level 20.

I bought a Cowl of Warding for the sole purpose of getting Mind Bland; any character at level 15+ that doesn't have immunity to mind-affecting stuff is asking to die.

[mabriss lethe]

I know, I just shaped it so I can attack incorporeal creatures.



I bought a Cowl of Warding for the sole purpose of getting Mind Bland; any character at level 15+ that doesn't have immunity to mind-affecting stuff is asking to die.

FWIW, even mindblank via an item isn't the end-all-be-all vs. a soulknife. They have access to the suppression ability, which will have a decent chance of knocking an item based ability offline.

[The Viscount]

FWIW, even mindblank via an item isn't the end-all-be-all vs. a soulknife. They have access to the suppression ability, which will have a decent chance of knocking an item based ability offline.

That is true that you can use suppression, but there are several lurking factors that reduce the efficacy. First, this only works on things that have the immunity through spell or item, it does not help against undead or constructs, or other means of protection against it. Second, it's not clear what happens if you strike an immune target with psychic strike. If it discharges on the first hit regardless, you'd have to spend a move to regain psychic strike before attacking your foe. Third, the suppression ability comes with an opportunity cost, you can't take other abilities instead, and soulknife is already making sacrifices with only a +4 bonus. Finally, the average soulknife doesn't have a manifester level (or it's 1st with Hidden Talent) so they're rolling at 1d20+5 vs a dc of 11+cl (26 for mindblank item). This means there is a 5% chance of success, or 0 for a soulknife without the ACF. So for a regular soulknife, it is complete protection.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That is true that you can use suppression, but there are several lurking factors that reduce the efficacy. First, this only works on things that have the immunity through spell or item, it does not help against undead or constructs, or other means of protection against it. Second, it's not clear what happens if you strike an immune target with psychic strike. If it discharges on the first hit regardless, you'd have to spend a move to regain psychic strike before attacking your foe. Third, the suppression ability comes with an opportunity cost, you can't take other abilities instead, and soulknife is already making sacrifices with only a +4 bonus. Finally, the average soulknife doesn't have a manifester level (or it's 1st with Hidden Talent) so they're rolling at 1d20+5 vs a dc of 11+cl (26 for mindblank item). This means there is a 5% chance of success, or 0 for a soulknife without the ACF. So for a regular soulknife, it is complete protection.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

[mabriss lethe]

That is true that you can use suppression, but there are several lurking factors that reduce the efficacy. First, this only works on things that have the immunity through spell or item, it does not help against undead or constructs, or other means of protection against it. Second, it's not clear what happens if you strike an immune target with psychic strike. If it discharges on the first hit regardless, you'd have to spend a move to regain psychic strike before attacking your foe. Third, the suppression ability comes with an opportunity cost, you can't take other abilities instead, and soulknife is already making sacrifices with only a +4 bonus. Finally, the average soulknife doesn't have a manifester level (or it's 1st with Hidden Talent) so they're rolling at 1d20+5 vs a dc of 11+cl (26 for mindblank item). This means there is a 5% chance of success, or 0 for a soulknife without the ACF. So for a regular soulknife, it is complete protection.

But given the criteria of the contest, one feat would max out your ML for the purpose of the weapon property. (any of the Host feats from C. Psi, to be precise, since they give you an ML of 1/2 your HD and the weapon property doesn't care where the ML comes from.). That alters your chances to roughly 50/50, which makes it closer to a viable tactic, Hypothetically combined with a belt of battle or other action economy ability That gives you an opening gambit of full attack with suppression mindblade+belt of battle-->Recharge psychic strike-->standard attack. I'm not saying that's the best possible use of your actions BTW. Just saying that it's a workable tactic, with little optimization.

As for the opportunity cost: look at the Adamantine Mindblade Gauntlet. As a side effect of the way it works, allowing you to swap adamantine on the fly for an existing enhancement, it lets you effectively rearrange your mindblade every time you form one. It reduces your opportunity cost dramatically, since you can just switch back once you've knocked down their buffs.

[The Viscount]

I can see how you would interpret using the Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlet, but even with the sloppy wording, I don't see how you're doing more than just altering your +1 abilities. Yes every time you shape your mind blade you can choose between the +1 or the regular benefit, but how does that give you a complete reshuffling of all your enhancements? It can break a +2 into a +1 and the adamantine, but how do you plan to use the poor wording to gain different +2 or +3 changes?

Also, wouldn't a soulknife pursuing this level of optimization trade in the psychic strike for the superior bonus feats?

[mabriss lethe]

I can see how you would interpret using the Adamantine Mind Blade Gauntlet, but even with the sloppy wording, I don't see how you're doing more than just altering your +1 abilities. Yes every time you shape your mind blade you can choose between the +1 or the regular benefit, but how does that give you a complete reshuffling of all your enhancements? It can break a +2 into a +1 and the adamantine, but how do you plan to use the poor wording to gain different +2 or +3 changes?

The free for all comes mostly from the wording of the example, which flat out states that you can choose every time you form it. The example doesn't say "or apply its original configuration" or anything similar,

It says: "For example, a 6th-level soulknife wearing the gauntlets could either choose to apply the gauntlets' effect or apply one of the +1 enhancement bonus value properties given on the table (EPH 29). A 10th-level soulknife could apply both the gauntlets' effect and a +1 enhancement bonus value property rather than applying a combination of properties from the table totaling +2."

That heavily implies, if not outright states, that the player has free reign to choose at the time of forming the blade and is not limited to its original configuration.

However, if that's not good enough, a weaker shuffle can be performed simply by rotating what the adamantine replaces every time you draw it.

Say you've got a +3 enhancement. You start with soulbreaker. Draw your mindblade using the gauntlet making it an adamantine collision. Draw it again. This time break up collision, reforming it into a suppressing adamantine. Draw it a third time. Break up suppressing and make it adamantine lucky psychokinetic, reform again as your soulbreaker. rinse, repeat.

Also, wouldn't a soulknife pursuing this level of optimization trade in the psychic strike for the superior bonus feats?

Well, yeah, obviously. Like I said, it's possible, but not necessarily the most optimal solution. My optimal soulknife build would be a Kalashtar using both of the Mind's Eye acfs to pick up Hidden Talent, combat psionic feats, and ToB feats (assassin stance comes to mind with maybe craven to top it off) while using most of its non-ACF feats for Kalashtar Mind link to boost ML to full HD and then illithid heritage/legacies to grant some bootstrap manifesting along with some decent perks and topping off with expanded knowledge to fill in minor powers like Hustle and P. Lion's Charge.

[ericgrau]

I'll be interested to see if this manages to go off, but my best actual prediction.. neither Samurai nor Soulknife have much in the way of relevant class features. Therefore, especially at higher levels, I expect these fights will be determined almost entirely by the equipment and feat choices of the combatants. I also suspect they're likely to look quite similar in that respect, since they both want roughly the same things out of their equipment. Soulknife's main feature may give him an edge there, in that the mindblade potentially frees up a significant amount of money.

For the record, I think Samurai is just that little bit worse off than Soulknife, and I'd be willing to attempt to provide a Soulknife of up to level 5 to compete in that level range.

This is a really good point, it probably is mostly equipment and feats. The poster's skill with these may determine the outcome more than the actual class.

I propose instead that people post their best soulknife or samurai build but then build nearly the same thing with the other class. Either the same person or another person can adapt the build from the original class onto the other. Or simply allow people to copy and tweak each other's builds when making a competing build from either class.

[mabriss lethe]

This is a really good point, it probably is mostly equipment and feats. The poster's skill with these may determine the outcome more than the actual class.

I propose instead that people post their best soulknife or samurai build but then build nearly the same thing with the other class. Either the same person or another person can adapt the build from the original class onto the other. Or simply allow people to copy and tweak each other's builds when making a competing build from either class.

I would almost propose the opposite. Strip everything down to bare bones. Home brew a "testbed race" that doesn't grant any ability modifiers or special tricks. Medium sized, elite array. I might even go so far as to strip them of level derived feats, so it's literally just the chassis and class abilities that you've got to rely on. WBL would probably have to change to "Just bare bones" Only level appropriate items that enhance a characteristic the class already uses. Limit weapons to Daisho vs Mindblade. We're not comparing how good you are at buying the right tools. We're comparing classes.

[ericgrau]

WBL is a basic part of the game though. You shouldn't ever omit it or it'll skew things. Heck the soulknife's #1 class feature is saving on WBL. How they perform in a low magic item setting is a completely different question. In fact I think I've heard before "I would only take soulknife in a low magic item setting where I couldn't get a magic weapon."

[ottdmk]

Without magical gear, it's very likely that a 20th level Samurai would toast a 20th level Soulknife. Highly unlikely the Soulknife would survive the Samurai's demoralizing ability.

[The Viscount]

I would almost propose the opposite. Strip everything down to bare bones. Home brew a "testbed race" that doesn't grant any ability modifiers or special tricks. Medium sized, elite array. I might even go so far as to strip them of level derived feats, so it's literally just the chassis and class abilities that you've got to rely on. WBL would probably have to change to "Just bare bones" Only level appropriate items that enhance a characteristic the class already uses. Limit weapons to Daisho vs Mindblade. We're not comparing how good you are at buying the right tools. We're comparing classes.

I mean we already have half-elf. It'd be equally useful (that is, useless) to both classes.

If you're depriving them of regular feats, then the we can find quite easily who will win. Same HD and no effects dependent on saves mean those chassis aspects are out of the equation. Both have a bastard sword, both are going to put the most investment in strength, so we can run all the numbers without needing characters.

Let's say both classes invested 14 in con, 13 in dex, and the samurai put his 12 in cha. Both characters have 15 in strength and all increases here (20) means a +5 on rolls, so the samurai is rolling at +25 for their first attack (or +26 if they get a masterwork one). The soulknife is rolling at +27 (15 from BAB, 2 from GWF, 5 from enhancement). A small edge to the soulknife in attacks, but if both classes are allowed armor the soulknife is stuck with light while the samurai has heavy, which tilts the effective chance of success back to samurai, especially considering they have one more attack. If the samurai uses both swords they're throwing on a -2 penalty, but taking AC into account they're still coming out ahead. Damage output is in favor of the soulknife per hit (1d10+12 vs 1d10+7, or +5 if TWF). If we convert to averages, the soulknife deals 17.5X3= 52.5 compared to samurai's 12.5X4= 50 if the samurai is two-handing. Edge soulknife.

Now let's assume both classes are going for damage, so the soulknife has a psychic strike charged, with collision and psychokinetic, and the samurai is TWFing and makes use of his smite. Soulknife's damage is averaged to 25X3=75 +22.5= 97.5 damage, 75 on subsequent rounds. Samurai's damage is averaged to 10.5X4=42 + 5.5X3 + 1= 59.5 for 4 rounds, 58.5 on subsequent. The soulknife here has a large advantage. Both classes will have the same average health, 20d10+40=154 hp (rounding down). Soulknife will hit that in 2 rounds, samurai requires 3. Regardless of who wins initiative (samurai has the edge), soulknife wins.

This little exercise assumed both classes just full attack every round, and that soulknife's psychic strike was already charged. If for whatever reason it was not, then both classes require 3 rounds, and the winner of initiative will be the winner of the fight. Samurai is rolling at +5 opposed to soulknife's +1, but it's not exactly a huge advantage. I didn't take missing or the soulknife having keen into account, because that would require more complicated analysis, and would bring in the randomness of the dice, which favor nobody.

We have a winner, but this is very far removed from a regular combat, and even further from normal play. There's such a thing as too abstract.

[DrKerosene]

I would almost propose the opposite. Strip everything down to bare bones. Home brew a "testbed race" that doesn't grant any ability modifiers or special tricks. Medium sized, elite array. I might even go so far as to strip them of level derived feats, so it's literally just the chassis and class abilities that you've got to rely on. WBL would probably have to change to "Just bare bones" Only level appropriate items that enhance a characteristic the class already uses. Limit weapons to Daisho vs Mindblade. We're not comparing how good you are at buying the right tools. We're comparing classes.

I've been thinking similarly. Maybe in the style of iron chef, villanous, etc, except a handful of Samurai and Soulknife builds are submited, and then a short series of challenges are used to judge the builds at various levels. Maybe assuming pre-selected gear for each level too?

Though, this is the "same challenge" method someone mentioned earlier in the thread, unless one of the challenges is head to head combat....

[Calthropstu]

I mean we already have half-elf. It'd be equally useful (that is, useless) to both classes.

If you're depriving them of regular feats, then the we can find quite easily who will win. Same HD and no effects dependent on saves mean those chassis aspects are out of the equation. Both have a bastard sword, both are going to put the most investment in strength, so we can run all the numbers without needing characters.

Let's say both classes invested 14 in con, 13 in dex, and the samurai put his 12 in cha. Both characters have 15 in strength and all increases here (20) means a +5 on rolls, so the samurai is rolling at +25 for their first attack (or +26 if they get a masterwork one). The soulknife is rolling at +27 (15 from BAB, 2 from GWF, 5 from enhancement). A small edge to the soulknife in attacks, but if both classes are allowed armor the soulknife is stuck with light while the samurai has heavy, which tilts the effective chance of success back to samurai, especially considering they have one more attack. If the samurai uses both swords they're throwing on a -2 penalty, but taking AC into account they're still coming out ahead. Damage output is in favor of the soulknife per hit (1d10+12 vs 1d10+7, or +5 if TWF). If we convert to averages, the soulknife deals 17.5X3= 52.5 compared to samurai's 12.5X4= 50 if the samurai is two-handing. Edge soulknife.

Now let's assume both classes are going for damage, so the soulknife has a psychic strike charged, with collision and psychokinetic, and the samurai is TWFing and makes use of his smite. Soulknife's damage is averaged to 25X3=75 +22.5= 97.5 damage, 75 on subsequent rounds. Samurai's damage is averaged to 10.5X4=42 + 5.5X3 + 1= 59.5 for 4 rounds, 58.5 on subsequent. The soulknife here has a large advantage. Both classes will have the same average health, 20d10+40=154 hp (rounding down). Soulknife will hit that in 2 rounds, samurai requires 3. Regardless of who wins initiative (samurai has the edge), soulknife wins.

This little exercise assumed both classes just full attack every round, and that soulknife's psychic strike was already charged. If for whatever reason it was not, then both classes require 3 rounds, and the winner of initiative will be the winner of the fight. Samurai is rolling at +5 opposed to soulknife's +1, but it's not exactly a huge advantage. I didn't take missing or the soulknife having keen into account, because that would require more complicated analysis, and would bring in the randomness of the dice, which favor nobody.

We have a winner, but this is very far removed from a regular combat, and even further from normal play. There's such a thing as too abstract.

Except the soulknife can simply pick keen. The soulknife has a +5 weapon with an additional +4 of different enhancements to choose from, totalling a +9. One of those choices is keen. Another choice is sundering... which will completely wreck the samurai's day. Another option is extra damage, giving further advantage to the soulknife in that regard.
If we factor in gold, this is a 160k weapon for free... a 25% increase of wealth by level essentially. That is fairly significant.
Yes, the samurai can purchase a better weapon... but he is spending a good chunk of his wealth on it, and it won't be much better.
Meanwhile, where the samurai is spending out the ass on a weapon, the soulknife can afford some sweet armor, countering a good amount of the bonuses from the samurai's sword.
Ultimately, the samurai is at a disadvantage every step of the way... monetarily, damage wise, soulknife has more options... in fact, unless the fight starts less than 120 feet away, the soulknife is guaranteed first strike... because the mindblade can be thrown with a full attack, gaining all of his attacks including the psychic strike.
I am calling it... the soulknife beats the samurai hands down. The range multiple throw attack clinches it.
The soulknife simply has more options than the samurai.

[lord_khaine]

If you wanted a good comparison, that did not depend on who the best shopper was, then you could always make a standard adventure package of armor/stat boosters/assorted utility items. And then give the Samurai a +9 sword, and the Soulknife an additional 160k to upgrade items for?

[The Viscount]

Except the soulknife can simply pick keen. The soulknife has a +5 weapon with an additional +4 of different enhancements to choose from, totalling a +9. One of those choices is keen. Another choice is sundering... which will completely wreck the samurai's day. Another option is extra damage, giving further advantage to the soulknife in that regard.
If we factor in gold, this is a 160k weapon for free... a 25% increase of wealth by level essentially. That is fairly significant.
Yes, the samurai can purchase a better weapon... but he is spending a good chunk of his wealth on it, and it won't be much better.
Meanwhile, where the samurai is spending out the ass on a weapon, the soulknife can afford some sweet armor, countering a good amount of the bonuses from the samurai's sword.
Ultimately, the samurai is at a disadvantage every step of the way... monetarily, damage wise, soulknife has more options... in fact, unless the fight starts less than 120 feet away, the soulknife is guaranteed first strike... because the mindblade can be thrown with a full attack, gaining all of his attacks including the psychic strike.
I am calling it... the soulknife beats the samurai hands down. The range multiple throw attack clinches it.
The soulknife simply has more options than the samurai.

Were you trying to quote someone that wasn't me?
The last section of my post assumes that the soulknife invested in the two straightforward damage enhancements. I did all the math to show that soulknife has a superior damage output compared to the samurai when both have no gear or feats. I said that soulknife would win. Why are you trying to argue with me?

[Tiri]

Were you trying to quote someone that wasn't me?
The last section of my post assumes that the soulknife invested in the two straightforward damage enhancements. I did all the math to show that soulknife has a superior damage output compared to the samurai when both have no gear or feats. I said that soulknife would win. Why are you trying to argue with me?

Well, you weren't very specific in that post on which class you actually thought would win, so it's easy to see how it might be misinterpreted by someone whose math is not quite up to scratch.

[The Viscount]

Regardless of who wins initiative (samurai has the edge), soulknife wins.

I guess this sentence got lost in the paragraphs. I'll just extract it here for relevance.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I can see why we might want to compare builds sans items.

Why would we want to compare them without taking feats into consideration?

[Calthropstu]

Well, you weren't very specific in that post on which class you actually thought would win, so it's easy to see how it might be misinterpreted by someone whose math is not quite up to scratch.

Actually, I was disagreeing that "keen" should be disregarded. Also, the Samurai would probably have improved critical as a feat.. it should be considered.
Also, his information wasn't considering ranged.
We agree who would win, but there are more factors that he wasn't taking into consideration... namely the fact that the Samurai MUST approach the soulknife, meaning the soulknife automatically gets first strike.

[Jormengand]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

We're also ignoring that the soulknife is absolute trash rather than just relative trash at low levels, where no literally it just has a nonmagical sword and that's it, so how this hypothetical soulknife even survived to reach level 20 (hiding behind a Samurai, who can at least hit things for regular bastard sword damage every round, perhaps?) I don't know.

[ColorBlindNinja]

New thread idea! Divine Mind vs Truenamer! ☺

[Jormengand]

New thread idea! Divine Mind vs Truenamer! ☺

I think the divine mind has a bad day, in short.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think the divine mind has a bad day, in short.

The Mind's Eye actually gives them a few class features, but I think the Truenamer is better at most levels.

[Jormengand]

The Mind's Eye actually gives them a few class features, but I think the Truenamer is better at most levels.

Astral Construct as a psion of one level below is pretty decent, but the Divine Mind still probably dies - at low levels, the DMind is best off trying to greatsword the truenamer and land a real hit on the truenamer's AC probably-15 before the namer reminds the universe that the divine mind would look better if he died.

At medium levels the Divine Mind probably gets the biggest Astral Construct he can find and shoots blindly at the flying invisible truenamer, only the Divine Mind is on fire.

At level 20, the Divine Mind gets his face eaten by a solar.

[mabriss lethe]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

We're also ignoring that the soulknife is absolute trash rather than just relative trash at low levels, where no literally it just has a nonmagical sword and that's it, so how this hypothetical soulknife even survived to reach level 20 (hiding behind a Samurai, who can at least hit things for regular bastard sword damage every round, perhaps?) I don't know.

If you're referring to my suggestion, I think you're misrepresenting or simply misunderstanding my intentions. My suggestion was to create a sort of testbed that minimized the impact of wbl granting orthogonal abilities. They should be geared with level appropriate toys that build on existing abilities/chassis features, but not granting new ones. Simply because both could buy the same sort of items. As for a hypothetical character built along those parameters surviving? My suggestion was theorycraft, for the sole purpose of benchmarking each class's mechanics in a relative vacuum.