Samurai vs Soulknife: The Ultimate Showdown

[tyckspoon]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

The Samurai's first level feature is just Bastard Sword Proficiency. He doesn't actually get the daisho - only the ability to wield the larger sword should he choose to buy one. (If they did get a free daisho, that would be a reasonably nice first level feature, since the katana and wakizashi are explicitly and specifically masterwork.. although probably more usefully used to pawn and buy fighting animals or hIrelings similar to the selling a wizards spellbook trick.)

[Calthropstu]

I too can see why a soulknife apologist may wish to compare the class whose only feature is a third-rate weapon to a class with real armour proficiency as though neither of them had any items. I suppose we're lucky that the samurai's first-level class feature says he gets a katana and wakizashi at first level or you'd be making him try to punch the soulknife until the latter stops moving.

We're also ignoring that the soulknife is absolute trash rather than just relative trash at low levels, where no literally it just has a nonmagical sword and that's it, so how this hypothetical soulknife even survived to reach level 20 (hiding behind a Samurai, who can at least hit things for regular bastard sword damage every round, perhaps?) I don't know.

A decent dex combined with gloves of dex combined with chain shirt gives the soulknife comparable ac to the samurai's full plate... no advantage there.
The best feature of the soulknife is being able to melee the samurai... at range. The Samurai has no defense against that, pretty much making a soulknife beating the samurai a guarantee.
The Samurai's attack pattern (20th) will be 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 (wakizashi is not a light weapon) Let's take the soulknife's base attack pattern: 15/10/5.
Obviously, the Samurai's attack pattern is far better. The soulknife can go the twf route, but he has a far betger option: two handed bastard sword. Since he can throw his mind blade, his best option is to charge his mindblade and throw it as the samurai approaches. Smacking at range for 1d10+5+1d4+5d8+6(34avg) two times before the samurai even gets into melee is a huge advantage.
Oh, and you know that heavy armor? Yeah... the soulknife can move faster. So you move up, soulknife moves away pelting you with bastard swords.
Only way the samurai wins is if he can corner the soulknife.

[shaikujin]

In the Soulknife's Mind Blade section, there are rules that say the Soulknife can make a roll to maintain the Mind Blade in a null psionics field.

Under the PF version, additional rules says that even if he makes the roll, the magical enhancements are still suppressed.

The 3.x version doesn't have this.

I'm wondering if there's any consensus on whether the mindblade retains its enhancements in a null psionics/AMF for the v3.5 Soulknife?

[DEMON]

The Samurai's attack pattern (20th) will be 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 (wakizashi is not a light weapon)

Wakizashi is a masterwork short sword, so it is a light weapon.

[Calthropstu]

Wakizashi is a masterwork short sword, so it is a light weapon.

Errr... where are you getting that from?

[DEMON]

Errr... where are you getting that from?

It's mentioned several times in the Samurai block in Complete Warrior.

Such as the description of his Daisho Proficiency class feature.

[Jormengand]

The Samurai's first level feature is just Bastard Sword Proficiency. He doesn't actually get the daisho - only the ability to wield the larger sword should he choose to buy one. (If they did get a free daisho, that would be a reasonably nice first level feature, since the katana and wakizashi are explicitly and specifically masterwork.. although probably more usefully used to pawn and buy fighting animals or hIrelings similar to the selling a wizards spellbook trick.)

"Many Samurai" apparently do; while I suppose a DM could technically say "You're one of the few samurai who don't!" I don't think I'd ever do that.

[The Viscount]

A decent dex combined with gloves of dex combined with chain shirt gives the soulknife comparable ac to the samurai's full plate... no advantage there.
The best feature of the soulknife is being able to melee the samurai... at range. The Samurai has no defense against that, pretty much making a soulknife beating the samurai a guarantee.
The Samurai's attack pattern (20th) will be 16/16/11/11/6/6/1 (wakizashi is not a light weapon) Let's take the soulknife's base attack pattern: 15/10/5.
Obviously, the Samurai's attack pattern is far better. The soulknife can go the twf route, but he has a far betger option: two handed bastard sword. Since he can throw his mind blade, his best option is to charge his mindblade and throw it as the samurai approaches. Smacking at range for 1d10+5+1d4+5d8+6(34avg) two times before the samurai even gets into melee is a huge advantage.
Oh, and you know that heavy armor? Yeah... the soulknife can move faster. So you move up, soulknife moves away pelting you with bastard swords.
Only way the samurai wins is if he can corner the soulknife.

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

What range are you presuming they are starting at? If soulknife is investing to improve their AC, why is the samurai not investing to improve their speed?

EDIT: We are still looking for someone to run the showdown, any takers?

[Calthropstu]

Throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action.

What range are you presuming they are starting at? If soulknife is investing to improve their AC, why is the samurai not investing to improve their speed?

EDIT: We are still looking for someone to run the showdown, any takers?

Not fullround for the soulknife. He gets throw mindblade at a rate of full attack at 30 foot range increments. So with 150 feet range, assuming a starting position of anything greater than that and it's soulknife auto win.
And any speed investment for the samurai can be matched easily by the soulknife... or did you forget the main argument for a soulknife win is that he has more to invest?

[Hackulator]

Not fullround for the soulknife. He gets throw mindblade at a rate of full attack at 30 foot range increments. So with 150 feet range, assuming a starting position of anything greater than that and it's soulknife auto win.
And any speed investment for the samurai can be matched easily by the soulknife... or did you forget the main argument for a soulknife win is that he has more to invest?

Any high level samurai who isn't at least carrying a masterwork composite longbow is an idiot though. With that he massively outranges the soulknife and maybe can even outdamage him with a couple invested feats.

[The Viscount]

Not fullround for the soulknife. He gets throw mindblade at a rate of full attack at 30 foot range increments. So with 150 feet range, assuming a starting position of anything greater than that and it's soulknife auto win.
And any speed investment for the samurai can be matched easily by the soulknife... or did you forget the main argument for a soulknife win is that he has more to invest?

There's nothing in soulknife's writeup that discusses the two-handed throwing rule. Either use the longsword or nab EWP.
The samurai I built has a speed of 80 feet. This means he closes the 150 foot distance in a single charge. I'm not saying a soulknife can never win, but these are not convincing arguments.

You're clearly passionate about this. Did you want to build a soulknife for round 2 so things can be even?

[Bonzai]

I'd like to throw fuel on the fire.

Soulknives are well served by picking up an anti magic torq from Underdark I believe. Once per day it creates an anti magic field. You can have your mind blade ignore it. So now you have your weapon vs their mw weapon. Further more I would go the spring attack route to negate his full attack. It will be your single strike vs his. Psychic strike still works, and if the DM concedes that manifesting your soul blade counts as a draw action you can tie it in to Iajutsu. Free action draw, free action dismiss. Add on feats like flick of the wrist, and skill tricks like Acrobatic back stab and hidden blade. That's three Iajutsu uses per combat without any flanks or other factors.

That's how I would build one.

[Hackulator]

I'd like to throw fuel on the fire.

Soulknives are well served by picking up an anti magic torq from Underdark I believe. Once per day it creates an anti magic field. You can have your mind blade ignore it. So now you have your weapon vs their mw weapon. Further more I would go the spring attack route to negate his full attack. It will be your single strike vs his. Psychic strike still works, and if the DM concedes that manifesting your soul blade counts as a draw action you can tie it in to Iajutsu. Free action draw, free action dismiss. Add on feats like flick of the wrist, and skill tricks like Acrobatic back stab and hidden blade. That's three Iajutsu uses per combat without any flanks or other factors.

That's how I would build one.

Mind Blade is a supernatural ability.

[Tiri]

Mind Blade is a supernatural ability.

Is that a problem?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is that a problem?

It is if you're using an AMF.

[Zancloufer]

It is if you're using an AMF.

Except the Soulknife's Mind Blade explicitly calls out that if it is in a place where the mind blade would fail to function he can make a DC 20 Will save to keep the blade manifested even in areas where it should be inert.

While it specifically mentions stuff like null-psionic fields it does create a catch: Either Anti-Magic and Null-Psionics are the same, or being a Psionic Ability it isn't effected by anti/dead magic zones.

[Hackulator]

Except the Soulknife's Mind Blade explicitly calls out that if it is in a place where the mind blade would fail to function he can make a DC 20 Will save to keep the blade manifested even in areas where it should be inert.

While it specifically mentions stuff like null-psionic fields it does create a catch: Either Anti-Magic and Null-Psionics are the same, or being a Psionic Ability it isn't effected by anti/dead magic zones.

I forgot about that part you are correct. Generally, I always rule the magic and psionics function the same in terms of AMF and NPF being the same thing and PR ans SR being the same thing, otherwise it gets really annoying and the fact that a lot of books just weren't created with psionics in mind becomes a problem.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Except the Soulknife's Mind Blade explicitly calls out that if it is in a place where the mind blade would fail to function he can make a DC 20 Will save to keep the blade manifested even in areas where it should be inert.

While it specifically mentions stuff like null-psionic fields it does create a catch: Either Anti-Magic and Null-Psionics are the same, or being a Psionic Ability it isn't effected by anti/dead magic zones.

Ah, that would solve that problem.

But what if your opponent can fly?

[mabriss lethe]

Ah, that would solve that problem.

But what if your opponent can fly?

Depends on the ability granting flight and how far away from you they are. Suppression mindblades coupled to a manifester level will have a really good shot at interrupting many types of magic flight at melee and close range, assuming the opponent is able to be hit. Innate flight, however, would require different tactics. As would a long distance between opponents.

[Eldariel]

Depends on the ability granting flight and how far away from you they are. Suppression mindblades coupled to a manifester level will have a really good shot at interrupting many types of magic flight at melee and close range, assuming the opponent is able to be hit. Innate flight, however, would require different tactics. As would a long distance between opponents.

In any case, Mindblade offers no easy option for trapping an enemy. An enemy under the effect of a Fly-spell need but walk 10' back (taking AoO or Tumbling) and take flight probably reaching heights where trying to envelop the enemy in an AMF is a fool's errand (of course, an area with a low roof is a different matter). And of course, if an enemy can engage at a range vs. AMF-trapped Soulknife, Soulblade or not the Soulknife is in trouble as none of the Soulknife's defensive magic items nor stat boosters are working inside the AMF while the attacker has access to everything. This is a summary of why AMF takes a lot of effort to use (you need some way to immediately kill the enemy or to keep them in the AMF) - at that point the Soulknife is probably best off dismissing the AMF and engaging conventionally after having traded in an attack or two.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Depends on the ability granting flight and how far away from you they are. Suppression mindblades coupled to a manifester level will have a really good shot at interrupting many types of magic flight at melee and close range, assuming the opponent is able to be hit. Innate flight, however, would require different tactics. As would a long distance between opponents.

The Samurai I built, at least, can fly without magic.

[mabriss lethe]

The Samurai I built, at least, can fly without magic.

Then the soulknife should hope to have some comparable capacity to move in 3 dimensions. Then it's just a matter of bringing the fight back to the opponent.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Then the soulknife should hope to have some comparable capacity to move in 3 dimensions. Then it's just a matter of bringing the fight back to the opponent.

He'd need natural flight, and this is ignoring fear effects the Samurai can bring to bear.

[mabriss lethe]

He'd need natural flight, and this is ignoring fear effects the Samurai can bring to bear.

If it can be acquired by one class that doesn't have it, it can be acquired by another class that doesn't have it. (one of the reasons I advocated a stripped down "benchmark" comparison, it eliminates a lot of the noise created by magic items.) By level 20, both characters can acquire various means of flight and high resistance/immunity to fear, along with a host of other toys, gizmos, and gadgets.

How this applies to deploying an AMF: That's all about the timing. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you've got it, you use it when it's most beneficial to you, or not at all. In a fight like this, it would be something akin to a quick and dirty finisher. Once you've got an opponent more or less under control, then you trigger the AMF to knock out a good chunk of the surprises they can deploy and finish it. That goes for either character.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If it can be acquired by one class that doesn't have it, it can be acquired by another class that doesn't have it. (one of the reasons I advocated a stripped down "benchmark" comparison, it eliminates a lot of the noise created by magic items.) By level 20, both characters can acquire various means of flight and high resistance/immunity to fear, along with a host of other toys, gizmos, and gadgets.

- The Soulknife is going to invest the resources necessary for a fear build?

- How are you going to get immunity to fear?

How this applies to deploying an AMF: That's all about the timing. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you've got it, you use it when it's most beneficial to you, or not at all. In a fight like this, it would be something akin to a quick and dirty finisher. Once you've got an opponent more or less under control, then you trigger the AMF to knock out a good chunk of the surprises they can deploy and finish it. That goes for either character.

I'd recommend against using an AMF like that; AMF tactics suit casters with Selective Spell/Cheater of Mystra.

[mabriss lethe]

It doesn't really matter, because this particular fight scenario will boil down to nth dimensional chess primarily won via wealth by level since neither class has any innate abilities that go past the "checkers" level of play. That doesn't give us the slightest indication of which class is king of this particular crap pile, just which player is better at gear optimization. You can get this, I can get that. But you can counter that with this, I can shut it down with that. so on and so forth ad nauseum. A combination of action economy boosters, level appropriate defenses/immunities, and tactical movement options deployed at the right time in conjunction with even decent damage, (that either can provide) would simply end the encounter, regardless of whether it's the soulknife or the samurai that deploys it.

[dude123nice]

I like how utterly badass the title sounds if you don't know anything about the two classes.

[DrKerosene]

- The Soulknife is going to invest the resources necessary for a fear build?

I was under the impression this was about being able to use the same resources to also get non-magic Fly as the Samurai. Mind you, you already said "Cowl of Warding", so I assume that answers your question here too.

I'd recommend against using an AMF like that; AMF tactics suit casters with Selective Spell/Cheater of Mystra.

I'm unfamiliar with the Cheater of Mystra Samurai-20 build, what spells are they using? I'm only aware of ways to acquire cantrips, but I'd be interested to see your magic using samurai build.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I was under the impression this was about being able to use the same resources to also get non-magic Fly as the Samurai. Mind you, you already said "Cowl of Warding", so I assume that answers your question here too.

I don't think the Soulknife's player could afford one.

I'm unfamiliar with the Cheater of Mystra Samurai-20 build, what spells are they using? I'm only aware of ways to acquire cantrips, but I'd be interested to see your magic using samurai build.

I was talking about AMF tactics in general, not this duel specifically.

I guess you could try a Contingent Selective AMF, but that's expensive and seems a little much for this debate.

[The Viscount]

Nice to see there are still some people interested.

Anyone interested enough to oversee the showdown? We could do it here in PbP, and it shouldn't take more than a few rounds either way.