Ignoring WBL for NPCs.

[Avianmosquito]

Qhat do you guys think of ignoring Wealth By Level for NPCs and basing their money and equipment directly off their economic class instead? It's a thing I almost always do, and it has gotten a mixed reception so far.

[zlefin]

nothing intrinsically wrong with it; and for higher up people like kings it can make a lot of sense. as long as oyu make sure anyone with high wealth and low level has enough actually tough guards to make sure people aren't just gonna kill them to take their stuff.
and a reason why a super tough and low wealth person hasn't taken stuff from others or simply earned it. (being high level you should be able to make a lot of money quite well)

[Avianmosquito]

nothing intrinsically wrong with it; and for higher up people like kings it can make a lot of sense. as long as oyu make sure anyone with high wealth and low level has enough actually tough guards to make sure people aren't just gonna kill them to take their stuff.

Right. I bring this up because of a 5th level paladin NPC I've got. I looked at his sheet and the thought came to me that if I was following WBL he'd have way less money than his 6th level jannisaries. But he's a shareef and a colonel. They're enlisted soldiers, albeit very, VERY good ones. It makes no sense at all they'd have more money than him as he rules a city and runs their entire regiment. He signs their paychecks, he's not going to pay even his best soldiers more than himself. (Even though he pays more than most shareefs as one way of establishing that despite being a villain, he's a good boss.)

[OldTrees1]

Adjust the CR as appropriate and then it is a great idea

[Avianmosquito]

Adjust the CR as appropriate and then it is a great idea

Righto. I actually asked the forum today of the wealth and equipment of these soldiers warranted a CR increase, but I didn't get a response yet.

[OldTrees1]

Righto. I actually asked the forum today of the wealth and equipment of these soldiers warranted a CR increase, but I didn't get a response yet.

According to one of the sample NPCs from the Epic Level Handbook, adjusting wealth even a few levels warrants a CR increase.

[Avianmosquito]

Well, his exact wealth is unstated, though his unusual generosity likely diminishes it somewhat. He does use +3 weapons and clothes, both of good materials, has two moderate wondrous items and three potions. So, CR 5? 6? 7? And what of his soldiers? They have good gear as well, do they get bumped to CR 6? 7?

[Crake]

An option you can use is for wealthy NPCs, simply use player WBL (which results in CR=level), and for unwealthy NPCs use NPC wealth by level? (which results in CR=level-1 in pathfinder) Alternatively, don't have level 6 guards with a level 5 paladin, if the level 5 paladin is supposed to be a highly decorated officer? Either reconsider the level of the guards, or reconsider the level of the paladin.

[Avianmosquito]

An option you can use is for wealthy NPCs, simply use player WBL (which results in CR=level), and for unwealthy NPCs use NPC wealth by level? (which results in CR=level-1 in pathfinder) Alternatively, don't have level 6 guards with a level 5 paladin, if the level 5 paladin is supposed to be a highly decorated officer? Either reconsider the level of the guards, or reconsider the level of the paladin.

Well, remember he's never been a front-line combatant. We're talking OCS-as-a-teenager military nobility, promoted based on battlefield sucesses despite rarely doing any fighting. And in Shareef Amari's case, logistics are his strong suit. His men won battles because Amari kept the supply lines strong and protected more than any tactical brilliance on his part. The jannisaries, on the other hand, are front-line elite riflemen, whose skills are hurting people and breaking things. (Mostly with their muzzle-loading rifles, but they are well armed.)

[Hackulator]

You guys understand that WBL is a guideline and not some sort of hard cap right?

[Avianmosquito]

You guys understand that WBL is a guideline and not some sort of hard cap right?

I am well aware, yes.

[Thurbane]

You guys understand that WBL is a guideline and not some sort of hard cap right?

I sometimes got the feeling I was literally the only one on these boards that acknowledged that.

I know now that even if I'm in the minority, at least there are two of us!

[Insert reply about DMs screwing the players, without exact WBL characters cannot function for their ECL etc.]

[Avianmosquito]

I sometimes got the feeling I was literally the only one on these boards that acknowledged that.

I know now that even if I'm in the minority, at least there are two of us!

[Insert reply about DMs screwing the players, without exact WBL characters cannot function for their ECL etc.]

I actually tend to pay well under WBL in games. In fact, I never really follow WBL at all. I was just seeing if anybody had a problem with that.

[Hackulator]

I sometimes got the feeling I was literally the only one on these boards that acknowledged that.

I know now that even if I'm in the minority, at least there are two of us!

[Insert reply about DMs screwing the players, without exact WBL characters cannot function for their ECL etc.]

Literally the only time I ever even look at the WBL chart as a DM is if we're starting above level 1 and I want to have players start with items.

[Avianmosquito]

Literally the only time I ever even look at the WBL chart as a DM is if we're starting above level 1 and I want to have players start with items.

I generally start the party at 3rd level and give the players starting cash based on how many players showed up and how many I expected. (After all, better equipment goes a long way towards making up for a smaller than expected party early on while I adjust the late-game encounters.) I never use WBL for anything, I've just gotten some objections to that lately.

[Hackulator]

I generally start the party at 3rd level and give the players starting cash based on how many players showed up and how many I expected. (After all, better equipment goes a long way towards making up for a smaller than expected party early on while I adjust the late-game encounters.) I never use WBL for anything, I've just gotten some objections to that lately.

What sort of objections?

[Avianmosquito]

What sort of objections?

Mostly, complaints from one player about the party being miles short of WBL, or having to rely on their actual payment instead of loot being most of their income, or wealthy NPCs having more money and better gear than equal-level players. No joke, my last party complained that the worthless level 1 hedonist prince had better stuff than they did. Never mind he's a PRINCE. A Caligula type, but a prince. Pretty sure if the king's spoiled brat wants something that can be bought, he's going to get it, you know? Even if he's done nothing productive his entire life.

[Crake]

Mostly, complaints from one player about the party being miles short of WBL, or having to rely on their actual payment instead of loot being most of their income, or wealthy NPCs having more money and better gear than equal-level players. No joke, my last party complained that the worthless level 1 hedonist prince had better stuff than they did. Never mind he's a PRINCE. A Caligula type, but a prince. Pretty sure if the king's spoiled brat wants something that can be bought, he's going to get it, you know? Even if he's done nothing productive his entire life.

Pretty sure the problem here was informing the players that he was a level 1 character. If the players want to be meta (and they were being soooo meta), and assume that he has all this wealth, and therefore he must be high level, let them make that faulty assumption.

[Avianmosquito]

Pretty sure the problem here was informing the players that he was a level 1 character. If the players want to be meta (and they were being soooo meta), and assume that he has all this wealth, and therefore he must be high level, let them make that faulty assumption.

They got quite a shock when they ended up fighting the little ****. As planned, might I add. His orders got increasingly inane until they refused one and he sicced his guard on them. A single 9th level body guard and a 1st level Joffrey actalike held their own against a 4-man 5th level party, and Prince Fortuno was actually pretty hard to kill. (9hp, but good luck hurting him through his AC 32 and DR 6/--.)

[Hackulator]

They got quite a shock when they ended up fighting the little ****. As planned, might I add. His orders got increasingly inane until they refused one and he sicced his guard on them. A single 9th level body guard and a 1st level Joffrey actalike held their own against a 4-man 5th level party, and Prince Fortuno was actually pretty hard to kill. (9hp, but good luck hurting him through his AC 32 and DR 6/--.)

Honestly, anyone who has a problem with that is well on their way to being a problem player. Shocking that the ruler of a nation would have extra wealth.

Honestly sounds like you're doing a good job of DMing, the characters went the way you wanted without you forcing them to (I assume you intended them to fight eventually) and then you hit them with something unexpected.

[Avianmosquito]

Honestly, anyone who has a problem with that is well on their way to being a problem player.

This is also a guy who insists on rolling 3d6 straight down instead of 4d6b3. He's a bit of a purist.

Shocking that the ruler of a nation would have extra wealth.

Technically, the ruler was his father.

Honestly sounds like you're doing a good job of DMing, the characters went the way you wanted without you forcing them to (I assume you intended them to fight eventually) and then you hit them with something unexpected.

Honestly, I didn't expect it to take so long for them to refuse an order. Especially once they knew the prick was violating a peace treaty, but what it took was them figuring out that despite lying about these villages being a threat he really just wanted to watch orcs die.

It was actually an interesting fight, too. His armour, shield and amulet made his AC way too high to hit, and his reflex save was pretty high too, so they had to target his 11 touch AC instead. Once they did, they knocked him out with scorching ray. The guard was more balanced, but 4 levels above them, and after that very hard fight they got a lot of gear way above their level.

This is when they found out the king hired them because they were a bunch of hotheads in hopes they'd flip and bump the ****er off so the NOT awful prince could be his heir and nobody in the royal family would get blamed for it. And it worked.

[Crake]

This is also a guy who insists on rolling 3d6 straight down instead of 4d6b3. He's a bit of a purist.



Technically, the ruler was his father.



Honestly, I didn't expect it to take so long for them to refuse an order. Especially once they knew the prick was violating a peace treaty, but what it took was them figuring out that despite lying about these villages being a threat he really just wanted to watch orcs die.

It was actually an interesting fight, too. His armour, shield and amulet made his AC way too high to hit, and his reflex save was pretty high too, so they had to target his 11 touch AC instead. Once they did, they knocked him out with scorching ray. The guard was more balanced, but 4 levels above them, and after that very hard fight they got a lot of gear way above their level.

This is when they found out the king hired them because they were a bunch of hotheads in hopes they'd flip and bump the ****er off so the NOT awful prince could be his heir and nobody in the royal family would get blamed for it. And it worked.

Haha, that sounds like an interesting fight, but to make things more interesting, I would have given the guard things that would let him take hits for the prince. I know there's a feat in drow of the underdark that lets someone dive infront of an attack and take it instead as an immediate action, and there are also feats that let you provide your shield bonus to nearby ally. Combine that with that one feat that lets you apply your shield bonus to touch AC could have made the fight last a little longer A neat idea though, one I might use someday now that the idea's been planted in my mind

[Avianmosquito]

Haha, that sounds like an interesting fight, but to make things more interesting, I would have given the guard things that would let him take hits for the prince. I know there's a feat in drow of the underdark that lets someone dive infront of an attack and take it instead as an immediate action, and there are also feats that let you provide your shield bonus to nearby ally. Combine that with that one feat that lets you apply your shield bonus to touch AC could have made the fight last a little longer A neat idea though, one I might use someday now that the idea's been planted in my mind

Yeah, I thought about that, but I wanted them to have a chance. So instead, I put his feat on exotic weapon proficiency so the kid could dish out even more damage. After all, he had 26 strength, and when he took a successful hit, he flew into a rage, dropped his shield and two-handed his sword. So yeah, suddenly the spoiled brat with anger problems dealt 36 damage with the one hit he landed before they killed him.

Yeah, I really like NPC combat encounters. They tend to be my hardest encounters, or at least the hardest ones my players are intended to actually fight. (I'm just assuming the PCs are not so daft as to charge a great old one, but I've been wrong before...)