Game of Thrones season 7 (with untagged spoilers, apparently)

[Xyril]

For the last freaking time:

STOP ASCRIBING THE MORALITY SYSTEM SEEN IN MANY FANTASY STORIES AS MY OWN.

I'm not going to explain it again. I've explained it plenty in my previous posts on this topic.

Sheesh.

Sir, please calm the heck down.

Just think of "Rodin's morality system" as shorthand for "the implied system of morality underpinning the standard of heroism by which Rodin's comment is judging the characters of GoT, which may not necessarily reflect Rodin's personal sense of morality." It's simpler for me to use the former instead of rewriting the latter multiple times, and I can't really just call it "the moral standard of the hero," because that would implicitly endorse the idea that the standard of the hero you espouse is the only valid one.

You keep trying to lend an aura of objectivity to your arguments by couching them in terms of "the hero" from a standpoint of literary analysis. However, implicit in your definition of the hero is a system of morality that values certain traits (courage, skill of arms, physical prowess) but not others (subterfuge, strategy, manipulation.) Remember though, that's not the only hero archetype out there. The classical Greek/Roman hero was almost agnostic to any sort of moral system--a hero was someone of tremendous ability, capable of doing great deeds, good or bad. Personally, I'm a big fan of the jack, or the heroic rogue. He's disdainful of authority and big causes, and outwardly selfish, but because of his inner goodness he can't help but help people. He's not necessarily the guy who can run headfirst into battle and expect to come out ahead, but he does manage to be an effective fighter through cleverness, quick-thinking, luck, and on occasion fighting dirty.

It's actually a pretty old trope--you see him in all sorts of folk tales from Europe, right alongside Rodin's literary hero--but I think it fell out of favor in the United States for a while as we came to focus on the John Wayne, man's man type hero. Harrison Ford did his part to bring it back (both Han Solo and Indiana Jones are arguably a closer match to the heroic rogue than to Rodin's hero archetype), and now it seems like people really enjoy using the heroic rogue when they want to make a story a bit edgier, but don't want to go all out with an anti-hero or a villain protagonist. Arya's interesting because she in between the anti-hero and the heroic rogue right now. As Rodin has (repeatedly) pointed out, she doesn't fit the Captain America, "good will win because heroes are so good at fighting that they'll win even when the bad guys cheat" because she doesn't have the physical size or strength to win most fair fights. Instead, she uses deception and surprise to beat people, tactics that are consistent with a rogue or an anti-hero or an outright villain.

With that in mind, how do we, as Rodin would insist, use literary analysis to determine what archetype Arya best fits? Surprisingly, motivation matters at this point. It's hard to say--particular if we treat the show as a separate entity and don't use the books to inform our interpretation--the extent to which Arya's motivation is closer to a purely selfish desire for revenge or a more noble quest for justice. I think she leans towards the hero side--the fact that more formal institutions of justice are corrupt or powerless and her unwillingness to kill people until she's sure they're guilty of something supports this. However, her clear joy in inflicting retribution would argue the other way. Another consideration is the consequences of her actions--when even a well-meaning person is heedless of the damage the cause and become a problem for the protagonists or people in general, they become the foil or an antagonist or some other part of the story. When examining this criteria, I don't see anything that disqualifies Arya from being the hero. Rodin asserts that she's heedless of the consequences of her quest for revenge, but the truth is we've seen zero evidence to that effect because her vengeance hasn't really resulted in any negative consequences for others. The major collateral damage--the actress who died trying to help her--was not a result of the quest for vengeance, but her desire to avoid becoming a nameless murderer for hire, and Arya didn't exactly brush that off apathetically. In fact, considering how heavy handed the show is about answering unjustified killings with huge (and often ironic) repercussions, the fact that karma seems to have no interest in punishing Arya seems to be a deliberate statement.

[Rodin]

Your second post has a very different tone from your first one, where you're talking about how distasteful my moral system is. That immediately pissed me off, resulting in my post. Doubly so since it doesn't reflect my moral beliefs.

I am much more inclined to agree with your second post. Arya is very much on the line between anti-hero and heroic rogue. And I'm very much in favor of this archetype over boring "Chosen One" heroes.

The major distinction I've noticed is method. Take Malcolm Reynolds and his famous line "if I kill you, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed". He isn't compelled to fight fair or honorably, and will happily shoot first - but the fight is always "fair", for a given value of that term.

Arya is more of an ambush predator, striking from the shadows. That's fairly uncommon, even among roguish heroes. To go back to Firefly again, they'll kill a man in a fair fight or if they look like they want to start a fair fight. More often, the sneakier types arrange villains to dispose of themselves - Mission Impossible did this all the time, setting the villain of the week up so that they get betrayed by their fellows (or killed because of a percieved betrayal). The heroes walk away with their hands "clean".

Examples where the Evil Overlord is asleep in his bed and suddenly gets shanked by the hero are quite rare, I think. There's always got to be a showdown, a confrontation.

As to why I feel "karma" might get Arya? Karma probably isn't the right word...consequence maybe?

The example from modern literature that best expresses my concern is The Lies of Locke Lamora. I'll spoiler this since it's a good series and I'm going to be talking about major events from the first couple books.

Spoiler

Show

In the books, a major antagonist from the first book is a Bondsmage that takes some pretty despicable actions,
killing many of Locke's friends in pretty hideous ways. He's in the crowd (along with Meryn Trant and the Freys) that the legal justification "he needed killin'" is good enough for me.

Locke takes things a bit further - he isn't allowed to kill the Bondsmage, so he badly mutilates the guy instead. Again, I fully support this course of action based on events in the story. Dude had it coming.

However, for the next several books this comes back to haunt Locke - the Bondsmagi don't forgive this, and Locke winds up with his life ruined multiple times as a result.

This sort of event is what I fear happening to Arya. I have zero concern over whether she was "morally justified" or not - everyone she killed had it coming. But ASoIAF does have the underlying theme of characters falling through their own actions. Ned Stark, by attempting politics when he's too honest and honourable by far. Tyrion trying to manipulate everyone to hold the kingdom together, then having the world fall on him when it turns out he has no true allies. Jon Snow ignoring the growing resentment from the Night's Watch, and getting stabbed repeatedly for his trouble. Daenerys conquering Slaver's Bay for a noble cause, then seeing things fall apart the instant she's gone.

Arya's arc feels like she's on the precipice of that, for good or for ill. I don't feel like the show handles these themes quite as well as the books, and now that they're not beholden to the books it's possible that she'll become the roguish hero with darker methods than most. But there's also the chance that the narrative will look poorly on her choice to kill people via mass poisoning.

Hopefully, her decision to go back to Winterfell signifies a turning point. If she had gone after Cersei, I don't think things would have ended well.

[Kyberwulf]

So I was watching a review, and they mentioned something..at the time I was watching that stuck in the back of my mind...that made me go. Oh yeah.. wait. So what we're danys force doing on the.. what I assume days and weeks we're on the sea. I mean they wait until they hit the keep to start talking to people on the ship? I mean Vayres and danys should have had that conversation long beforehand. Also they should have sent the ships to pick up danys 7 kingdoms army to meet them at the keep looong before they did in the show. This is all critical tactical misakes. Unless I am missing something?

[Dr.Samurai]

No, I think you're right Kyberwulf. But I think it's just done for pacing on the show. But yes, it doesn't make much sense that that conversation between Dany and Varys hadn't happened earlier considering he was making alliances on her behalf.

Same thing in the North. Baelish rescued Jon and reclaimed Winterfell. And he and Jon haven't spoken together since that day? No one has thanked Petyr for this help? Did anyone thank the forces of the Vale? Has there been any talk about a debt to the Vale? Or a formal alliance? I mean, there's a new king. And the Vale kind of made it happen so... seems like a conversation we should see happen at some point.

[Rodin]

From tonight's episode:

Spoiler

Show

Welp, Varys is doomed. I had my suspicions he wouldn't survive the show, but with foreshadowing like that he's as toasty as Belkar.

Farewell Queen of Thorns. I'll definitely miss Lady Olenna, although I think she overstayed her welcome a bit. The character was around a lot more than in the books mainly because Diana Rigg is awesome.

Tonight's episode seemed kinda...rushed. We have the storming of Casterly Rock which should be a major event and a huge showpiece, and it happens in less than 5 minutes. The storming of Highgarden which is another huge deal and that happens basically off-screen.

Also, where were Highgarden's troops? I thought they were supposed to be sieging King's Landing? Or were they slaughtered along with the Dornish on the fleet?

It's kind of straining my disbelief that two such major powers could have all their forces wiped out so effortlessly by the Lannisters.

I did like the interactions between Jon and Daenerys. It was exactly as awkward as you'd expect.

[Xyril]

Your second post has a very different tone from your first one, where you're talking about how distasteful my moral system is.

This is incorrect, as I've already explained.

Here is a more accurate version.

Your second post has a very different tone from your first one, where you're talking about how distasteful the moral system implicit in the ideal of the hero I was citing.

For what it's worth, I understand why you got mad. You (incorrectly) believed that I was ascribing an argument to you that I didn't intend to make. I explained to you that I was not in fact doing that. You apparently decided to double down and ignore that explanation and continue to ascribe an argument to me that I did not intend to make (for the second time.) Considering that you literally just stated that that sort of thing makes you angry when done to you, it makes me wonder why you did that.

As for the rest of your post, you raise interesting points, in the first part, though I'll admit I ignored a possibly large spoilered part since I plan to get to that one day, and kind of skimmed the rest since I might be missing some important context.

[Rodin]

This is incorrect, as I've already explained.

Here is a more accurate version.



For what it's worth, I understand why you got mad. You (incorrectly) believed that I was ascribing an argument to you that I didn't intend to make. I explained to you that I was not in fact doing that. You apparently decided to double down and ignore that explanation and continue to ascribe an argument to me that I did not intend to make (for the second time.) Considering that you literally just stated that that sort of thing makes you angry when done to you, it makes me wonder why you did that.

I feel like we're talking past each other here.

Your first post, regardless of your intentions, doesn't mention literary tropes but instead repeatedly refers to "Rodin's moral system". I got pissed, you then clarified in your second post that you're talking about literary tropes and not my moral system. Your second post does clearly address both literary tropes and what my initial argument was, so I explained why I got so mad in the first place and responded to the second post which was quite an interesting one.

Frankly, I'd be happiest if we just dropped the whole thing and went back to talking about the show.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah.. This episode sycked. It was so bad. It retroactively made the previous episode suck to. I think shortening the season really is a detriment. A lot of the stuff that I thought was gonna be cool.. just seems to be glossed over. I mean. Even the character stuff. It's like.. whelp. Brand back. Oh you are the Lord of wunterfell now. Nope. Don't want it. The battles.. I mean the open narration of a battle of a video game .... type thing.. was so bad. It feels like most of this series entirely made up of.. previously on Game of thrones...the entire episode is like that.

[solidork]

I thought it was OK. It had a lot of characters that I like interacting with each other. Tyrion got to be funny, which is almost always great. I actually even liked 80% of the scene with Littlefinger and Sansa, up until the point Sansa seemed impressed (I think? Maybe her eyes were just as glazed over as mine) by his neurotic chessmaster ravings. My soul cried out for her to look at the camera like she was on The Office.

The scenes with Bran didn't work. I want a scene where Sansa talks with Meera and is like "??? Also, we could totally use your dad's help."

I don't mind that they fast forwarded through the battles. There are only four episodes left, I've got no idea how they are going to wrap things up in that time.

[Dr.Samurai]

I was pretty disappointed. I feel like they don't want to blow their load with Dany's forces and Bran's knowledge, but the way they've gone about it isn't really working for me.

I can't tell if they're just taking liberties with Euron's fleet, or if they'll explain some magic he's using to literally be anywhere at any time unannounced. It kind of throws Tyrion's abilities in to question and Dany's intelligence gathering. They don't know where Euron is, and they don't know the Lannister army has marched south and left Casterly Rock empty. That's... not good.

I don't mind them being outsmarted by Jaime and Randall Tarly. That's fine. I just feel like the reasons given for not steam-rolling King's Landing haven't been great. Or maybe... it's more of the same. Dany wants to be nice. And liked by the people. So she restrains herself and ends up paying the price. So now she's lost her entire fleet and the Unsullied are trapped at Casterly Rock. Congratulations, you played yourself. Again.

I feel the conversation between Dany and Jon was a bit clunky. He didn't really do anything to make me like him any more. It's just annoying that Melisandre did nothing to give Dany a primer on what's going on. She spoke about prophecy last episode, but she should have gone into more detail, mentioned the white walkers, mentioned that she raised Jon Snow back from the dead and she feels he's destined to save the world with her help, etc. Dany not believing him makes some sense but it only goes so far considering she has three dragons and is immune to fire and believes in blood magic. Jon should have made more of an issue about the alliance in the north and his trepidation to bend the knee because he needs everyone he can muster to fight off the white walkers. "I don't have time to bend one knee" is such a nonsensical statement to make all on its own.

On a similar vein of withholding information, we finally get Bran at Winterfell and he's a total wacko now. We haven't seen any visions, and now he's just weird and disconnected. Shows no emotion when he reunites with Sansa, thinks explaining the title of "Three-Eyed Raven" is to complicated, for Sansa to understand, and then inexplicably brings up her rape in the creepiest way possible.

Sansa: What have you been up to Bran?!
Bran: It's difficult to explain but I'll try... You were very pretty the night I watched you get raped.

Anyways, some things I did enjoy...

I definitely liked the scene with Petyr and Sansa. I feel like before Season Five he was the best player of the game and would eventually win. Now, I think we're just waiting for him to die. But this scene was a great reminder of how he's gotten to where he is without an army or any sort of temporal power. Also, since Sansa will be queen of the Iron Throne, she needs to hear this kind of stuff .

I also liked the scene between Cersei and Ellaria. Not really for any of the revenge stuff. I liked Cersei getting a little personal. She showed a vulnerable side when she asked Ellaria why she killed her daughter, and when she admitted to not sleeping at night because she stays up thinking of how she will destroy her enemies. Not something you want to hear from your captor lol.

Anyways, episode was meh. Battles were rushed, and were victories that leave you wondering how exactly the Spider is helping if Dany and her team literally don't know their enemies' movements.

[Dienekes]

I thought it was OK. It had a lot of characters that I like interacting with each other. Tyrion got to be funny, which is almost always great. I actually even liked 80% of the scene with Littlefinger and Sansa, up until the point Sansa seemed impressed (I think? Maybe her eyes were just as glazed over as mine) by his neurotic chessmaster ravings. My soul cried out for her to look at the camera like she was on The Office.

The scenes with Bran didn't work. I want a scene where Sansa talks with Meera and is like "??? Also, we could totally use your dad's help."

I don't mind that they fast forwarded through the battles. There are only four episodes left, I've got no idea how they are going to wrap things up in that time.

Just so I know you're aware. There is a whole other 7 episode season. This one will probably just be about the fall of Cersei or end with the walkers crushing victory in the north.

Or both.

[solidork]

Just so I know you're aware. There is a whole other 7 episode season. This one will probably just be about the fall of Cersei or end with the walkers crushing victory in the north.

Or both.

Huh, I don't know why I thought it was the last one. That makes much more sense.

[Rodin]

I can't tell if they're just taking liberties with Euron's fleet, or if they'll explain some magic he's using to literally be anywhere at any time unannounced. It kind of throws Tyrion's abilities in to question and Dany's intelligence gathering. They don't know where Euron is, and they don't know the Lannister army has marched south and left Casterly Rock empty. That's... not good.

One thing I've seen pointed out elsewhere is how impossible Euron's fleet movements have to be. Dany's forces left from Dragonstone simultaneously. The Dornish start sailing in towards King's Landing, get ambushed and destroyed. Euron then returns his fleet to King's Landing where he turns over his captives to Cersei and spends a bit of time being lauded as a hero. During all this time, Dany's second fleet is building more and more distance as it sails around the continent.

Then, suddenly, his fleet magically appears on the opposite side of the continent in time to catch Dany's fleet at anchor. The only reasons for the fleet to still be at anchor is if they've just dropped off all the troops, or if they're just idiots that sat vulnerable at anchor for the over a week that it would have taken for Euron's fleet to catch up with them.

It feels like the writers decided most people who watch the show have no grasp on the geography. They need Dany's fleet destroyed? Fine, give Euron a magically teleporting fleet! Nobody will notice!

[Malimar]

It's possible that Euron's fleet seems to be magically teleporting because he has divided it into several subfleets that are each noodling about on their own.

[Kyberwulf]

I get that they don't have any proven military commanders. But this is ridiculous. There have been three major battles.. and they have lost them all. Maybe Jon can help here. I don't like the fact that danys has done all the work and worked up a powerful army. Just tk get roflstomped by plot armor. I mean cersei has done no real work and should be hated and feared as much as mad king was. Her armynshould be ready to revolt.

[S@tanicoaldo]

One thing I've seen pointed out elsewhere is how impossible Euron's fleet movements have to be. Dany's forces left from Dragonstone simultaneously. The Dornish start sailing in towards King's Landing, get ambushed and destroyed. Euron then returns his fleet to King's Landing where he turns over his captives to Cersei and spends a bit of time being lauded as a hero. During all this time, Dany's second fleet is building more and more distance as it sails around the continent.

Then, suddenly, his fleet magically appears on the opposite side of the continent in time to catch Dany's fleet at anchor. The only reasons for the fleet to still be at anchor is if they've just dropped off all the troops, or if they're just idiots that sat vulnerable at anchor for the over a week that it would have taken for Euron's fleet to catch up with them.

It feels like the writers decided most people who watch the show have no grasp on the geography. They need Dany's fleet destroyed? Fine, give Euron a magically teleporting fleet! Nobody will notice!

I know right? Forget Dragons & Whitewalkers, Euron called The Space Guild & now can fold space to be instantly anywhere in Westeros!

It's possible that Euron's fleet seems to be magically teleporting because he has divided it into several subfleets that are each noodling about on their own.

I thought that was the case at first but you can clearly see his personal "winged" ship leading the fleet. It's just bad writing.

[Malimar]

I thought that was the case at first but you can clearly see his personal "winged" ship leading the fleet. It's just bad writing.

Yeah, having now checked out a screenshot, that's pretty clear, I didn't notice it before. (Somehow I didn't notice before now that Euron's flagship is the only one with those goofy wings.) Shoulda known better than to give any iota of benefit of the doubt to this show's writers.

[S@tanicoaldo]

It's possible that Euron's fleet seems to be magically teleporting because he has divided it into several subfleets that are each noodling about on their own.

Yeah :/

Can we talk about how disappointing casterly rock looked?

[Dr.Samurai]

One thing I've seen pointed out elsewhere is how impossible Euron's fleet movements have to be. Dany's forces left from Dragonstone simultaneously. The Dornish start sailing in towards King's Landing, get ambushed and destroyed. Euron then returns his fleet to King's Landing where he turns over his captives to Cersei and spends a bit of time being lauded as a hero. During all this time, Dany's second fleet is building more and more distance as it sails around the continent.

Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm just missing stuff or if they're playing real loose with time and distances. Because a lot of people are traveling. Arya went from The Twins to the Inn at the Crossroads and will probably just pop up at Winterfell soon. Meanwhile, Bran hadn't made it to Winterfell from the Wall yet. Ravens are flying from Old Town and Dragonstone and arriving at Winterfell almost instantly. Jaime leaves King's Landing and is suddenly at High Garden with the entire Lannister army that presumably left Casterly Rock much earlier. And then of course the issue of Euron's fleet intercepting the Dornish forces, heading back to King's Landing for a bit, and then striking the Unsullied just a few hours(?) after they sack Casterly Rock on the other side of the continent?

And Jon Snow exits the gates of Winterfell and suddenly steps on the shores of Dragonstone lol.

I get that we can't do super realistic times for travel in the show, but it kind of seems like distances don't matter much anymore.

Then, suddenly, his fleet magically appears on the opposite side of the continent in time to catch Dany's fleet at anchor. The only reasons for the fleet to still be at anchor is if they've just dropped off all the troops, or if they're just idiots that sat vulnerable at anchor for the over a week that it would have taken for Euron's fleet to catch up with them.

Have they established how Team Cersei knows where everyone is? Or is the implication that Cersei/Jaime simply *know* how Tyrion will plan the invasion of Westeros?

Because truthfully, his plan to take Casterly Rock didn't make much sense to me. He says "For decades House Lannister has been the power behind the throne, so we're going to take Casterly Rock." It kind of makes sense on the surface, but I didn't see a need to send your forces to the other side of the continent immediately. Sack King's Landing. When the Lannisters march across the Gold Road, raze them to a man with your dragons. If they come over sea, destroy their ships with your dragons.

I don't know, it seemed premature. But maybe that's just hindsight because now I know that the Lannisters are three steps ahead of everyone else. Somehow...

It feels like the writers decided most people who watch the show have no grasp on the geography. They need Dany's fleet destroyed? Fine, give Euron a magically teleporting fleet! Nobody will notice!

Lol.

Euron to the Ironborn: Make me the greatest fleet the world has ever seen, and I will give you Westeros! And uh... use the teleporting trees to make the boats when you do it.

EDIT: Yeah, I believe they show the ship with the large sails to indicate that Euron is there as well.

[Mechalich]

I've been really disappointed in general with the portrayals of military operations this season, but really, I feel like it's my own fault for expecting more. Game of Thrones has always dumbed-down the strategic elements to serve the narrative immensely compared to the books, and the books themselves are not particularly good when it comes to the 'military' part of fantasy. Still, it has become extremely obvious this season.

Euron's fleet is particularly egregious, but there's other things, like the (off-screen) Battle of Highgarden in this episode. How does that happen? If you look at Highgarden in the brief shots we get you see that it is a powerful medieval fortress. The Lannister army shown assaulting it is both 1. not all that large - they show a shot of the whole blasted force and it's maybe ten thousand men being very generous and 2. has no siege weapons at all. That's fundamentally ridiculous, you can't launch an attack on a castle without siege weapons, period.

Taking Highgarden should be extremely bloodly and involve massive Lannister casualties even if the Tyrells only have a few hundred defenders (which the pile of bodies in the courtyard strongly suggests they did possess) or should require a siege of several months. And the funny thing is that we saw, in the previous season the same thing play out at Riverrun in that a massively numerically superior Frey force was stuck hopelessly besieging the Blackfish's much smaller force with no real success.

This cavalier attitude with the reality of castles makes Tyrion look like an idiot for no good reason and undercuts the drama. The reason to attack Casterly Rock is because Tyrion had a back way in, making a viable assault possible where it otherwise would not have been. And the idea that, even with the gold gone "Casterly Rock's not worth very much" as Jamie states, is absolute BS. With possession of the Rock the Unsullied can attack every position in the Westerlands, take Lannisport with ease, and send the Lannister bannermen rushing back to defend their homes. The very idea, in fact, that the Lannister forces would run off to besiege a castle hundreds of miles from home while their own territories were exposed is ridiculous.

And finally, I find it particularly frustrating that the showrunners seem to have forgotten that, by this point in the storyline, it's supposed to be winter. There should be snow on the ground both in King's Landing and at Casterly Rock and probably at Dragonstone as well. Even at Highgarden the trees should have lost their leaves.

Ultimately, I understand what's going on here. At the end of the previous season the Lannister position was completely untenable. Cersei had justifiable control of King's Landing and Casterly Rock and basically nothing else and Dany should have rolled over the Lannisters in about two seconds. The show can't allow that to happen so things have been changed, but it hasn't been well concealed at all.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Don't even get me started on the Free city of Braavos iron bank scene.

You know why it's called Free city? Because it was build by former slaves and they created a whole culture based on freedom and hatred towards slavery, their enitre society is build around a disdain and dislike for slevery.

But in the show they work with slavers. -_-'

[Rodin]

The difference with Riverrun is that siege takes place in the books. The writers of the show can't be bothered with that noise.

Looking at the map made another thing obvious to me - I was wrong when I said that Dragonstone holds no strategic importance. It sits at the mouth of Blackwater Bay, allowing anyone with a large fleet (*COUGH*Daenerys*COUGH*) to blockade King's Landing quite easily. Sure, it doesn't cut them off from land trade but it's a nasty financial blow.

And Cersei leaves it undefended...why, pray tell? It's not like it's far away. Stannis pulled everyone out because his force was basically a shattered remnant after his defeat at King's Landing and he couldn't afford to leave anyone behind when he went north. Given easy communications with ravens, it would make a lot of sense to base at least part of Euron's fleet there - it prevents them from being bottled up in Blackwater Bay and is handily positioned to roam anywhere up or down the east coast.

---

Another facepalm worthy moment from the episode is when the Unsullied try to storm Casterly Rock with ladders. They sling the ladders up and the Lannisters sit there waiting for the Unsullied to climb up. Maybe try giving that ladder a push, guys? It's not like they're anchored.

[Mechalich]

The difference with Riverrun is that siege takes place in the books. The writers of the show can't be bothered with that noise.

Regrettably, this seems to be the case. They couldn't handle the Stannis vs. Ramsey campaign with any due diligence either.

Looking further, I note that Jaime's reaction to the loss of Casterly Rock - that he seems to have expected it - is ridiculous. The Rock is supposed to be impregnable and it was not left undefended. Dany has 6-8 thousand Unsullied or so if I recall correctly. If Jaime left even one thousand to defend the Rock (and it sure looked like the garrison remaining was reasonably sized) he should have every expectation that it would survive a direct assault. Sure it could be taken by siege, and potentially (if we assume the book situation we regard to supplies remains in place) stores were limited, but he ought to have expected his men to hold out for weeks at least. The only reason the Rock falls is that Tyrion had a back way in, and if Jaime knew about that (which given his relations with his brother he just might have), he ought to have had it plugged - in which case he could have handed Dany double the defeats.

[Dr.Samurai]

Mecalich, you're totally right! Seems the showrunners don't understand why castles were a thing lol.

They made a point to say the Highgarden forces were never great warriors, and I thought at the time "well, you're defending a castle, so that's a bit different", but it didn't stick out to me exactly how Jaime would have invaded the castle. Especially without siege weapons (good catch!).

Given that they have such huge food stores, they could have probably been under siege for a very long time if it was treated more appropriately right?

[Rodin]

A further question is why Tyrion didn't know that Casterly Rock was unimportant (even though it obviously was important for reasons stated upthread).

The most obvious reason it wouldn't be important is that the gold mines have run dry, which was a plot point earlier in the show. They needed Highgardens gold mines, which was a big part of the alliance.

So...why does Tyrion go after Casterly Rock and leave Highgarden undefended? Highgarden seems like it would be a pretty high priority to defend if that's where your income is coming from. And it's not like it's out of the way - the Unsulllied actually had to sail past Highgarden to get to Casterly Rock.

The more I think about this, the less I like it. I'm starting to sense that while last season passed the books they were still running from fairly detailed outlines for Winds of Winter (or even completed chapters). Now they're completely on their own, and they're starting to flounder.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Here: link

Have this huge, most detailed and complete map of westeros and see how silly the movements in the show are dumb.

[Dr.Samurai]

This is unrelated to the battles and overall war strategy...

I've been thinking about that scene between Sansa and Petyr. My theory has been that Sansa will end up on the Iron Throne, though admittedly I thought she'd get there through marriage with Baelish and now I don't think that will happen.

That said, she already was trying to convince Jon that Cersei is a real danger to them. Now Baelish is echoing that sentiment, telling her to fight every battle, everywhere, always, in her mind. He warns that all the Northerners are facing North while Cersei is South of them, and that if they beat back the army of the dead, they will still have Cersei to contend with.

So I think Sansa is getting set up to be the major force against Cersei during the War for the Dawn. Once convinced that the White Walkers threaten her chances to rule, Dany will ally with Jon. Maybe they make a pact where Jon has to help her win the Iron Throne. I'm thinking Sansa will be the one to make that happen.

I don't know to what extent Bran will be utilized in the war. But he's already admitted that he has difficulty with his powers. He's just a kid with super powers. But Sansa has gained a mind for strategy to some degree. She may be able to help Bran figure out what he needs to figure out by narrowing what to search for.

I can see the Starks becoming a force to be reckoned with, because of Bran's powers and Sansa's new political guile. With the ability to spy on their enemies, in the past, present, and future, Sansa can make strategic moves. And she has a shapeshifting assassin she can dispatch as needed. I think while the bulk of Cersei's enemies are north fighting the white walkers under Dany and Jon, Sansa will utilize the remaining southerners to defeat Cersei.

This was inspired by Arya. I mean... she just wiped out the Freys, but no one was there to take advantage of that. With Bran's greenseeing, Arya's wetwork, and Sansa's mind, the Starks can reestablish themselves as the preeminent house in Westeros.

Speaking of which... what will happen to House Stark? There are no men to pass on the name. Can Arya and Sansa continue the line?

[Callos_DeTerran]

I thought it was OK. It had a lot of characters that I like interacting with each other. Tyrion got to be funny, which is almost always great. I actually even liked 80% of the scene with Littlefinger and Sansa, up until the point Sansa seemed impressed (I think? Maybe her eyes were just as glazed over as mine) by his neurotic chessmaster ravings. My soul cried out for her to look at the camera like she was on The Office.

The scenes with Bran didn't work. I want a scene where Sansa talks with Meera and is like "??? Also, we could totally use your dad's help."

I don't mind that they fast forwarded through the battles. There are only four episodes left, I've got no idea how they are going to wrap things up in that time.

What do you mean that there's only four episodes left this season?

[Dr.Samurai]

Season 7 will only have seven episodes in total. So there are only four left to finish off the season.

[theMycon]

I've decided to make sense of this season. It's more fun than rational discussion. That said, if these aren't the most plausible things you can think of, I'd love to hear your ideas.

Euron's magic horn makes ships appear out of thin air. Whether or not they come crewed is yet to be determined.

Varys is working for Cersei (or Euron). Thus why they know everything Dany is up to in enough time to react to it, but she is entirely blind.

The budget has been slashed, especially in the casting department. Only about 1 in 5 People who are still watching pay for HBO in any capacity.