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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    My take on why Loki set up that bet; one less evil God to divvy out souls with. And what does he care if Thor gets the lion's share of Dwarves? Loki gets Greysky City instead.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    I suppose the gods have their set relationships, but if I were an OOTS norse deity, and a god named Loki showed up to offer me a tantalizing bargain, I'd reject it on principle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Loki's plan may have been that turning the dwarves into a Lawful society would rob Thor (a Chaotic Good deity) out of the very same souls that worship him. But the preface to BRITF shows that Durkon believes that dwarves go to Valhalla (CG afterlife) to party for the rest of their existence, so either

    -Thor found a way around Loki's scheme
    -what Durkon said only applies to clerics of Thor, and non-clerics go to the appropriate alignment afterlife (if they died honorably)
    -Durkon is mistaken
    -I am wrong and this is not Loki's intention
    (Emphasis mine.)
    I'm fairly certain it's this one...kinda. You see, in D and D, generally, Clerics, unlike other people, don't go to their appropriate alignment plane after death. Rather, they go to the plane that their God resides on. Generally, each Plane in the famous Planescape "Great Wheel" has a large amount of Gods with personal domains set up within the various afterlives. Clerics go to their God's personal domain after death. So a Cleric of Thor, even one who was non-CG, would go to Thor's domain, presumably in Valhalla. (Note that, in Planescape, Valhalla is actually the Plane of CN with CG Tendencies, but that's a whole other matter.) Either way, presumably Loki's Clerics to go to hs personal domain after death, whatever their alignments in life were, and so on. This, incidentally, is another reason why not having any mortal Clerics robs Hel of power. Her Clerics, in addition to spreading her influence, would also go directly to her domain in the afterlife, boosting her power directly as well as indirectly. Any people who weren't particularly religious in life (IE Non-Clerics.) instead just go to the generic Plane for their Alignment, presumably feeding the power of their alignment as a whole and, by extension, all Gods of said Alignment.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2017-07-17 at 10:50 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Now I'm curious - was Thor's participation needed for the entire bargain, or just the bet? In other words, could she unilaterally claim default dominion over Dwarf souls that died without honor, or was Thor complicit in signing his worshipers away?
    Technically, everyone is complicit in signing their worshipers away. Thor doesn't have universal control over the souls of dwarves, we've seen dwarven clerics of Odin (Odin's guy in Start of Darkness), Loki (Hilgya), Freyr (Freyr's representative, though that might be a gnome), and nontheistic entities (like The Creed). Thor is merely the measuring stick for this bet. If Thor>Hel, then having clerics > not having clerics. Durkon explicitly states that dwarves who die with honor go to their respective plane. That said, Pete's buddy reacts to the notion of "worships Thor" with "Can you tell me anything about him that differentiates him from any other dwarf", so Thor probably does command a sizeable percentage of dwarven worship. However, Thor comes across as Chaotic Good while Dwarves tend towards Lawful Good, so I think Thor is getting bilked out of souls.

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Essentially, I think that's what Loki's going for. Thor wins the bet? Loki wins. Hel wins the bet? Loki STILL wins. It's a Xanatos Gambit, as TV Tropes would have it. A deal whose every possible outcome benefits its originator. Hel wins? She'll thank Loki for giving her more power. Thor wins? Hel can't harm Loki or the pantheon as a whole, thanks to her lack of worshippers and power.
    Well, that backfired, as Hel is depicted as being incredibly bitter at Loki for screwing her over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    So Loki played a mean trick on his daughter. I wonder why? Why on earth would Loki want Thor to gain souls while Hel lost them?
    Thor doesn't particularly benefit from this arrangement, since "[Thor] keeps the normal arrangement". The "normal arrangement" is that he gets to make clerics. Souls normally go to the alignment they belong to (possible exception for divine casters).


    I think this may be one of Loki's ill-conceived bets (he makes a number in the original myths: he underestimates how fast the builder can build the walls of Asgard, and bets his head to make Mjolnir and several other artifacts, which he only manages to escape via letter of law shenanigans).

    He gets the scorn of his daughter, his biggest rival has to double time effort to keep the dwarves out of Hel's grip, typical dwarven alignment means he doesn't get their souls, and typical dwarven alignment means Heimdall, the dude who in mythology kills Loki during Ragnarok, gets a major race dedicating a non-insignificant number of their souls to him.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Seriously, half of Norse mythology is people not realizing you should never make a bet with Loki
    You mean to say he wasn't being truthful when he said this mistletoe wouldn't hurt anyone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MReav View Post
    Technically, everyone is complicit in signing their worshipers away. Thor doesn't have universal control over the souls of dwarves, we've seen dwarven clerics of Odin (Odin's guy in Start of Darkness), Loki (Hilgya), Freyr (Freyr's representative, though that might be a gnome), and nontheistic entities (like The Creed). Thor is merely the measuring stick for this bet. If Thor>Hel, then having clerics > not having clerics. Durkon explicitly states that dwarves who die with honor go to their respective plane. That said, Pete's buddy reacts to the notion of "worships Thor" with "Can you tell me anything about him that differentiates him from any other dwarf", so Thor probably does command a sizeable percentage of dwarven worship. However, Thor comes across as Chaotic Good while Dwarves tend towards Lawful Good, so I think Thor is getting bilked out of souls.



    Well, that backfired, as Hel is depicted as being incredibly bitter at Loki for screwing her over.



    Thor doesn't particularly benefit from this arrangement, since "[Thor] keeps the normal arrangement". The "normal arrangement" is that he gets to make clerics. Souls normally go to the alignment they belong to (possible exception for divine casters).


    I think this may be one of Loki's ill-conceived bets (he makes a number in the original myths: he underestimates how fast the builder can build the walls of Asgard, and bets his head to make Mjolnir and several other artifacts, which he only manages to escape via letter of law shenanigans).

    He gets the scorn of his daughter, his biggest rival has to double time effort to keep the dwarves out of Hel's grip, typical dwarven alignment means he doesn't get their souls, and typical dwarven alignment means Heimdall, the dude who in mythology kills Loki during Ragnarok, gets a major race dedicating a non-insignificant number of their souls to him.
    Again, I think Loki's original idea was that, while Hel would be angry at him, with no worshippers and little souls to her name, it'd be impossible for her to follow through on any threats. Of course, he, like the rest of the Gods, didn't consider the situation that is currently occurring.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2017-07-17 at 11:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The problem with that is, as per Hel's own statement, Dwarven society is specifically engineered that way. Rich implies here that a system of honor that DID have honor neutral deaths would not result in those people going to Hel, because its specifically the dishonored dead (and dwarves who did not explicitly die honorably, we now learn) that she has dominion over. He uses Haley as the specific example for a death that is not dishonorable enough to get her sent to Hel.

    So the dwaves have created an honor-binary society out of reaction to the bet, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have honor-neutral deaths had they been left to their own devices like the other races.
    That was 5 years ago, apparently he changed his opinion. He's allowed that. Today we learned, that Hel has default dominion over dwarves. The one exception are honorable deaths. The only one. Period.
    So anything that is not honorable, and that includes "honor neutral" would go to her. So it's less a "dishonorable" go to her but "not honorable" do.

    As the dwarves are aware of that, they build a system where there are no honor neutral things, because that's the same as dishonorable anyway. And tried to cheat it in some way to make almost everything honorable in some way. Loki probably helped with the fine print there too.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Oh that Loki... such a Hel-raiser.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    That was 5 years ago, apparently he changed his opinion. He's allowed that. Today we learned, that Hel has default dominion over dwarves. The one exception are honorable deaths. The only one. Period.
    So anything that is not honorable, and that includes "honor neutral" would go to her. So it's less a "dishonorable" go to her but "not honorable" do.

    As the dwarves are aware of that, they build a system where there are no honor neutral things, because that's the same as dishonorable anyway. And tried to cheat it in some way to make almost everything honorable in some way. Loki probably helped with the fine print there too.
    Yeah. If the system worked in such a way that an honorable dwarf who died a neutral death escaped from Hel's clutches, then this whole scheme - blowing up the world to deny the entire dwarven population an honorable death - wouldn't work anyway.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    On the one hand, I feel a little bad for Hel - she got legitimately screwed out of something important for gods.

    On the other hand, honestly, if she didn't make her afterlife so hellishly (pardon) unpleasant, she wouldn't be in this mess. Many wouldn't try so hard to die with honor if hers was the "free pizza and beer for everyone regardless of alignment" afterlife.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2017-07-17 at 11:28 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Chei View Post
    Yeah. If the system worked in such a way that an honorable dwarf who died a neutral death escaped from Hel's clutches, then this whole scheme - blowing up the world to deny the entire dwarven population an honorable death - wouldn't work anyway.
    That may be a plot twist coming - the moment when Loki points out to Hel that yes, there is a loophole, and the dwarves are marching through it to Thor's domain. In perfect formation and step, singing doleful dirges, but marching through nonetheless, because Dwarves.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Speculation: Hel's afterlife wasn't as unpleasant in the first world as it is here. Because much of the suffering the dishonored dwarves go through is due to Hel resenting their honor-based society and taking it out on the only beings she can.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    On the one hand, I feel a little bad for Hel - she got legitimately screwed out of something important for gods.

    On the other hand, honestly, if she didn't make her afterlife so hellishly (pardon) unpleasant, she wouldn't be in this mess. Many wouldn't try so hard to die with honor if hers was the "free pizza and beer for everyone regardless of alignment" afterlife.
    How's she supposed to pay for the pizza and beer, though? It's not like she has worship income to cover the expenditure over time....Come to think of it, without clerics the living might listen to, how's she supposed to tell the dwarves that she's started on pizza and beer instead of rocks and more rocks?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    so both hel and roy have now used her name for that kind of joke. heh.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by warmachine View Post
    I wonder if the author has received any complains at all for abusing Norse mythology.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Just curious; what's 'honour neutral' supposed to mean? Especially when Rich gave really good examples of living and dying with honour that didn't involve violence?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    On the one hand, I feel a little bad for Hel - she got legitimately screwed out of something important for gods.

    On the other hand, honestly, if she didn't make her afterlife so hellishly (pardon) unpleasant, she wouldn't be in this mess. Many wouldn't try so hard to die with honor if hers was the "free pizza and beer for everyone regardless of alignment" afterlife.
    Well, yeah. She's Evil. Their afterlives tend to be at least pretty unpleasant as a general rule. It's part of their whole Darwinian, survival of the fittest thing.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Well, yeah. She's Evil. Their afterlives tend to be at least pretty unpleasant as a general rule. It's part of their whole Darwinian, survival of the fittest thing.
    Well, yeah, but I'm saying that basically this is her own comeuppance for being Evil. Reap what ye sow and all that.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2017-07-17 at 11:55 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Just curious; what's 'honour neutral' supposed to mean? Especially when Rich gave really good examples of living and dying with honour that didn't involve violence?
    That doesn't sound like a real term.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    That doesn't sound like a real term.
    I think the idea is "nearly especially honourable nor especially dishonourable"

    Being shot while fleeing a battle, might be especially dishonourable, despite being violent.

    But dying in an accident, might fall between "honourable" and "dishonourable".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shining Wrath View Post
    Based on panel #3 Hel has no lower body at all, which means Thrym's motivations to be consort had to be more "interest in her mind and power" and less "interest in divine nookie".
    Eh, still hard to tell. Yes, her dress kinda dwindles away to nothing, but there's still room for legs in there, and Thor and Loki are floating as well. Allthough, given the half-skeletal bit (which until this thread I had no knowledge of), it seems likely that she could be skeletal below the waist. Which means Tsukiko might be interested (but probably not), but Thrymm probably doesn't know what is or is not under those skirts. Assuming, of course, that Rich is sticking with the half-skeletal version of Hel.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    A possible hint that "it has to be an honourable death to avoid Hel, not merely a non-dishonourable death":

    Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens. The world is not fair.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    A possible hint that "it has to be an honourable death to avoid Hel, not merely a non-dishonourable death":
    No offense, but that's less a "hint" and more a "giant flashing sign declaring the answer."

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    If I remember correctly, Durkon said that sick dwarves who feel the end is near find themselves a honorable death in a hurry.
    Which may or may not involve dying while fighting a tree.

    EDIT: oh yeah, all the details are in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html
    Last edited by ratfox; 2017-07-17 at 12:12 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    Well, yeah, but I'm saying that basically this is her own comeuppance for being Evil. Reap what ye sow and all that.
    I think the scenario's rather disproportionate for "poor understanding of the concept of investment", though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratfox View Post
    If I remember correctly, Durkon said that sick dwarves who feel the end is near find themselves a honorable death in a hurry.
    Which may or may not involve dying while fighting a tree.
    It's amazing that actually works, but that explains their fear of trees.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    I know that there's really not that much of a "Oh, poor Hel" thing going on in the comments, but there is a bit of a sympathy card being played for her. An undercurrent in the comments if you will

    So a rejoinder: Hel tried to take advantage of a drunk Thor by accepting this deal.

    Not cool, Hel. Not cool at all. Serves you right that Thor figured out a loophole when you tried to take advantage of him.

    ...

    Well that and listening to one of the OG Trickster Gods.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    On the one hand, I feel a little bad for Hel - she got legitimately screwed out of something important for gods.

    On the other hand, honestly, if she didn't make her afterlife so hellishly (pardon) unpleasant, she wouldn't be in this mess. Many wouldn't try so hard to die with honor if hers was the "free pizza and beer for everyone regardless of alignment" afterlife.
    Indeed. To dwarves, only death in battle is honourable (which is a bit stupid when you think about it) and Hel could advertise her afterlive as being for pacifists. No one forces her to be evil. Indeed, I am not sure Hel was/is evil in the original mythology. There's often some flanderizing in popular culture.


    I wonder what dwarves do about childbirth and childbed fever. Most honour-based societies in real life had women who died in childbirth go to a lovely afterlife. (Sometimes the same men got for death in battle). If all your girls decide to become virgin warriors and die in battle, rather than intentionally risk a honour-less death, you're going to go extinct pretty soon.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1083 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Serves you right that Thor figured out a loophole when you tried to take advantage of him.
    How about the dwarves? Does it serve them right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    Well that and listening to one of the OG Trickster Gods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    Indeed. To dwarves, only death in battle is honourable (which is a bit stupid when you think about it) and Hel could advertise her afterlive as being for pacifists. No one forces her to be evil. Indeed, I am not sure Hel was/is evil in the original mythology. There's often some flanderizing in popular culture.


    I wonder what dwarves do about childbirth and childbed fever. Most honour-based societies in real life had women who died in childbirth go to a lovely afterlife. (Sometimes the same men got for death in battle). If all your girls decide to become virgin warriors and die in battle, rather than intentionally risk a honour-less death, you're going to go extinct pretty soon.
    Actually, Rich has implied before that you don't have to die in battle per say, you just have to die doing something honorable/noble. See: The earlier-mentioned example of a Dwarf who dies of exposure while delivering supplies to help his kinsmen survive the winter. Rich has also stated that a Dwarven politician who gets assassinated for his strongly-held would also count as dying with honor. As Rich puts it, "They fought in the arena for which they were most suited, and died while defending their position. Sounds like an honorable death to me." In other words, you have to die whist serving your duty to the Dwarven people. I'd imagine childbirth counts.

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