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Thread: vampire spirits

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

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    Default vampire spirits

    We saw gregs spirit turn into durkon before he died. I'm wondering if the "negative energy stirring" meant he'd turn back into full out evil greg, or was just a grim reminder for vampire durkon that he was not truly durkon and had a purpose to fulfil now.

    I'm assuming its the former.

    With this dark energy at play, if it did turn him back into evil durkon, how long would it take? Was there any word from the author on this? It was a cool plot twist, and some things were left open ended, and while I do think its obviously the 1st option, it could have been anything really.

    What could have happened would be a truly good *durkon vampire, who had to cope with the reality of his unlife, but I'm pretty sure evil durkon would pop back over time to assert himself once again.

    And is greg just absorbed back into the negative energy plane? or would this take some time much like how souls take time to be absorbed into their respective planes? I could see some kind god or high ranking demon pluck spirits like these not necessarily durkons dark energy soul and transfer its conciousness into some other life form. the wisdom and experience of one of these such "spirits" could come in handy, but I don't know if such a thing is possible.

    I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts on this, and I hope to learn something from this.
    Vae Victus!

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    Fyraltari's Avatar

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    As far as I understand it, Durkon* was always a copy of Durkon with two differences:
    1) the spirit was made of Negative Energy rather than Positive Energy, but since neither are inherently Good or Evil, all that changes is wether the body needs to be technically living to function.

    2) ‘Durkon’ had only absorbed a very few moments of Durkon’s life starting with the very worst one. Since people are the sum of their experiences, this meant that Durkon* was a very incomplete copy of Durkon’s personality keeping only the bad parts with none of the (overwhelmingly more numerous) good parts to rein them in.

    Had Durkon* managed to live his own life, he would process each memory one at a time, allowing him to color them with his pre-existing outlook and balance them with his own unlife. This would have resulted in someone closer to Malack, an evil version of Durkon with the superficial elements of the original Durkon (like the accent) présent but not the morals.

    When Durkon tricked Durkon* into absorbing all his memories, he subverted the process, forcing Durkon to have all of his life with the context associated. Since we are the sum of our experience and Durkon* had lived for less than a week and Durkon for fifty plus years, the end result was another exact copy of Durkon, except with fangs.

    The ‘negative energy squirming’ comment, I read as Durkon#2 being uneasy with being a spirit made of Negative Energy instead of Positive Energy like his newfound life experience tells him he should be. I don’t think the Durkon* personality could reassert itself over Durkon#2’s anymore than Roy’s or Belkar’s old personalities could reassert themselves over their current ones for the same reason, their life experience made them grow beyond that.

    But Durkon#2 cannot be sure of that and with the stakes at play, ensures it doesn’t happen.

    As for the other question, I’m not well-verses enough in D&D to answer, but since Durkon got all of Durkon*’s memory, there is no meaningful sense in which Durkon#2 died. The two simply merged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    but since Durkon got all of Durkon*’s memory, there is no meaningful sense in which Durkon#2 died. The two simply merged.
    I don't think we have enough information to say that for sure. If a wizard somehow created an exact duplicate of someone's soul and then destroyed it, just to argue he destroyed nothing, because that soul already existed I would say he would only be technically correct if the soul he duplicated suddenly experienced the world from two locations in stead of the usual single location.

    Carrying on the line of thought, the vampire spirit certainly wasn't Durkon when it was evil since these two were clearly separated, and if they were the same at the point of time of the vampire's destruction is interesting, but not certain. A crude example could be when we cut our hair, a nail or even something that is living, we don't experience life as two separate organisms, in stead we stay in our body.

    One can imagine a clone (or robot or zombie) that has all the information that would define e.g. Durkon to the rest of the team (and the rest of the world for that matter), and let's just include all of Durkon's memories into this being, yet if we create it in some far away location and then slay it, I doubt anything about the original Durkon's reality would change.

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    hrožila's Avatar

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    I don't think they were literally the same at the end - they still had agency, individually. But they had the same personality, memories, experiences and goals. So in my view Vamp Durkon, a distinct individual who just happened to be an almost identical negative energy copy of OG Durkon, did die in a very real sense.

    Other than that, I fully agree with Fyraltari. That was a very good explanation.
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    That’s true, but there is fundamental differenece between this situation and your examples.
    Both Durkons share the same body and sensory input (as symbolized by the eye-window-thingies inside his mindworld). When the two selves had different memories and personnalities, the distinction was meaningful. But once Durkon shared everything with Durkon the distinction feels academic to me.

    Durkon now carries Durkon#2’s memories and sense of identity inside Durkon#2’s body, so to me, Durkon#2 is still alive ‘within’ (for lack of a better term) Durkon.

    Edit: But at this point we’re just disagreeing on how many angels can dance on a pinhead, so I acknowledge that my position on this is no more valid than anybody else’s.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrožila View Post
    Other than that, I fully agree with Fyraltari. That was a very good explanation.
    Why, thank you.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-11-11 at 08:50 AM.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    I agree that the memories of Greg are now a part of Durkon, but the negative energy soul is permanently and forever gone.

    When Durkula was dusted both soul entities were liberated, Durkon to go to Thor and Greg to merge back into the negative energy plane the way a slain elemental would merge aack into its native plane. The animating negative energy spirit cannot survive the destruction of its host under any circumstances, and if Durkon was to get re-vampirized Hel would have to forge a new entity to animate the corpse because Hel cannot preserve Greg under any circumstances.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    Great points by all. Thanks for the diverse and well reasoned points of view.
    Vae Victus!

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    Thank you for your kind words!

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the spirit was made of Negative Energy rather than Positive Energy, but since neither are inherently Good or Evil
    Do you have some kind of citation for that? And if you do, are you sure that doesn't say something like "evil adjacent , but not exactly evil itself?"
    But once Durkon shared everything with Durkon the distinction feels academic to me.
    But in this circumstance the soul is not an abstraction.

    There were two real, discrete spirits in the same mind / body. The fact that there's an extra soul there requires consideration the same what that extra mass would.

    Quote Originally Posted by WolvesbaneIII View Post
    With this dark energy at play, if it did turn him back into evil durkon, how long would it take?
    We have to guess here, but I'd say we have three pieces of information informing us. My interpretation is that it's short.

    1) Greg's assessment that he didn't have long in his current frame of mind.
    2) This has never happened before (Rich made comments to that effect).
    3) Rich's treatment of the undead. This requires some expansion.

    The undead are not treated as "humans, expect for practical circumstances are different"; they are not metaphors for humans of different culture/ethnicity. There are reasons that a good character like Durkon to think he could never get along with a Malak based solely on Malak being a vampire. The body and soul of a vampire are all built differently from a dwarf's and every circumstance and experience will affect the vampire differently.

    In my interpretation, Greg became overwhelmed with the habit of being Durkon, but the effect was more like a charm spell than a genuine change. Given time, reg would be reminded more that he didn't actually feel the things that caused Durkon's beliefs. For example Drukon might have been touched by Elan's eagerness to donate blood (and guilty about Greg's abuse), but Greg doesn't have the same disposition towards sympathy towards others and would have just thought of Elan as a sucker. Eventually Greg would realize that Durkon's world view isn't consistent with his disposition, even though they have exactly the same experiences forming their worldviews.

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    I don't really think Durkon got all of Greg's memories. I think he only got the things Greg explicitly shared with him. Otherwise he would na 'ave needed ta ask aboot Greg's plans. Greg couldn't hide from Durkon anything he learned or experienced from the time Greg took over, but anything from before that, Durkon wouldn't know without Greg telling him.
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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    I don't really think Durkon got all of Greg's memories. I think he only got the things Greg explicitly shared with him. Otherwise he would na 'ave needed ta ask aboot Greg's plans. Greg couldn't hide from Durkon anything he learned or experienced from the time Greg took over, but anything from before that, Durkon wouldn't know without Greg telling him.
    He only got those memory after #1131, as explained in panel 4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Default Re: vampire spirits

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He only got those memory after #1131, as explained in panel 4.
    Very true. Thanks for the refresher.
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

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