Optimizing the sling

[the_archduke]

So I am trying to find a way to use a humble sling in the best possible way. I am pretty sure a bow would be better, but I don't care. Sling is mandatory.

So far I know I am using a halfling with the warslinger alternate racial trait

"Warslinger: Halflings are experts at the use of the sling. Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action. Reloading a sling still requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. This racial trait replaces sure-footed."

Unless there is another way to reload as a free action with a sling, this seems mandatory.

Fortunately, halflings have good stats for ranged characters. +2 dex is a must, -2 str is only 1 point of damage. +2 cha makes me want to be a paladin.

Paladin makes me think of the tempered champion archetype, which gives my normally 1d3 sling a scaling boost to its damage die. I also get weapon focus/specialization/greater of both as bonus feats.

From here, I am not sure what else to do. Normal ranged feats point blank shot/precise shot/rapid shot/deadly aim of course.

Are there any other archetypes that would work better/stack with tempered champion? Is there a better chassis to use than paladin? Are there any feats I am missing that would help, especially sling specific stuff.

I already have a name though. Sir Rollo Roundshot.

[Ellrin]

Paladin's not a bad choice, but I'd caution against giving up spells too easily. The warpriest weapon scaling and free feats from Tempered Champion are nice, but even by level 14, you're still only dealing 1d8 damage--combine that with WS and GWS for a total average bonus of 7.5 damage versus other Paladin archetypes. That's not bad, but you have to remember you're giving up spells and the ability to grab a special mount to get it. With spellcasting, you also give up the ability to use wands/scrolls of Paladin spells without UMD (though you're probably pumping Cha, so that's just a question of how you want to allocate your limited skill points).

Ranged fighting combines pretty nicely with mounts, assuming you've pumped your Ride skill appropriately. You can move up to your mount's speed and still take full attacks without investing in any feats, and as a small character, you can ride a medium mount and avoid many of the problems mounted combatants usually run into. The 2nd level Paladin spell Saddle Surge (invest in a wand) can also net you a ton of bonus damage in the right situations.

Divine Favor combined with fate's favored, as well as Saddle Surge combined with Optimistic Gambler, can give you some very nice bonus damage--not as reliable as the tempered champion bonus, but you're getting more flexibility and more nova damage. If you use the Oath of Vengeance archetype, you can trade in lay on hands attempts (which you won't need as often as a melee paladin, anyway) for additional smites, meaning you can take the Extra Lay on Hands feat to increase your smites/day pool, assuming you have extra feats to play with.

It's not like Tempered Champion's awful for a ranged paladin, I'm just hesitant to give up spells on a normally casting class, even when that casting is as limited as the Paladin's.

Other good choices for ranged combatants (this isn't specific to slings, though, just in general) include the inquisitor, sohei monk, and slayer. You could probably build a decent slinger out of an investigator using ranged study, but it would be pretty feat-starved.

Of course, none of those particularly benefit from your racial Charisma bonus.

[Psyren]

Unless there is another way to reload as a free action with a sling, this seems mandatory.

Juggle Load

Check out the Slipslinger Style feat chain. Since you're going halfling, take a look at Large Target. Whip-Slinger and Sling Flail allow you to avoid switching weapons if something enters melee range.

Too lazy to hyperlink everything but you get the idea

[Ellrin]

If you can, check out the Halflings of Golarion book. Most of the feats Psyren mentioned are from that one, and it also introduced a bunch of sling ammunition that halflings have racial familiarity with. Probably one of the most important is sharpstones, which lets you use piercing or slashing damage, though admittedly at ten times the cost of normal sling bullets.

You can also use poison or oil (+1d2 fire damage when set alight) in spongestones. While that's not particularly impressive in itself, you can always ask your DM if he'll allow the use of other liquids—contact drugs, alchemist's fire, offensive magic oils, etc., for instance.

If you want to make all the attacks, you can throw in TWF (on top of Rapid Shot) and use a double sling. Hand's Autonomy will reduce the penalty for TWF to a slightly more manageable -1 (since the penalty stacks with the Rapid Shot penalty). Or you could just make a sohei monk focusing on slings and flurry. Heck, there's nothing stopping you from doing all three.

[ATHATH]

Does the Warslinger racial trait enable you to make Full-Attacks with Slings?

The Slipslinger tree looks pretty decent (I'm sure there's something nasty that you can use it to throw), although it has a laundry list of prerequisites.

[the_archduke]

Related question:

Would a human who takes the feat racial heritage: halfling treat a Halfling Staff Sling as a martial weapon? A rule allowing halflings to do so is contained in the description of the sling.

"Racial Specialty: Halflings treat halfling sling staves as martial weapons."

Racial heritage states:

"Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on."

Follow up:

Is there any way to get the halfling warslinger racial trait on a human?

[eldskald]

Related question:

Would a human who takes the feat racial heritage: halfling treat a Halfling Staff Sling as a martial weapon? A rule allowing halflings to do so is contained in the description of the sling.

"Racial Specialty: Halflings treat halfling sling staves as martial weapons."

Racial heritage states:

"Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on."

Follow up:

Is there any way to get the halfling warslinger racial trait on a human?

No. Racial trait is one thing, a race trait is another. The former are the traits of the race listed on the race's page, such as the Warslinger. The latter is a trait you pick when you created the character from the trait list. You know, the ones who divide in social traits, combat trait, religious traits, magic traits, race traits and etc. Racial Heritage wont give you racial traits, it will only qualify you for taking race traits and race feats.

Now, about your build, why do you really like the Tempered Champion? Is it for the warsinger damage dice and bonus feats? If so, you check out the Focused Weapon class feature from the advanced weapon training list of features the fighter can choose from. By being a fighter, you get better and more bonus feats and that sweet weapon dice. Now, if you like smite evil, lay on hands and the other class features better than the rest, I still doupt giving up spell casting is worth it. I'm not a paladin expert, I don't know how good or bad is their spell lists, all I know is that smite evil is indeed a pretty good class feature.

Let's take a look at each option:

So, the fighter has less damage with weapon training but It's more consistent (works all the time against every enemy). Also, by dumping charisma, you can also be a human and use Juggle Load instead of Halfling Warslinger to reload. That means you have pretty much everything to go full on Str and Dex. Also, fighters are not LG only if you care about it. You would also have more feats, though I don't know what you will be taking with them.

The paladin can go full on nova damage with smite evil and divine bond with a double sling and rapid shot. Keep in mind it's a very limited resource, and you will deal less damage and miss more often when not using it. Also notice how divine bond is slightly better than weapon training, although still a very limited. You will also give up your spells and must use the weapon divine bond. You will be slower and have fewer AC with no armor training. You will get auras, meaning you will also get that sweet sweet Cha to saves (and paladins have better saves also). You would also need to be LG and worship a god whose weapon of choice is the sling (I don't know about your setting, but hey it's RAW).


Yeah... Spells or no spells, I'm inclined to think the paladin is a better deal. Paladins have significantly less feats, but quantity is not important here. You just need to plan which feat you take when and see if the paladin is viable. I doubt it isn't, but it's best you do it just in case. Planning a build ahead never hurts.

[Psyren]

Does the Warslinger racial trait enable you to make Full-Attacks with Slings?

As long as you can reload as a free action then yes, you can full-attack.

[Ellrin]

You would also need to be LG and worship a god whose weapon of choice is the sling (I don't know about your setting, but hey it's RAW).

Pretty decent comparative analysis on the benefits of the fighter and paladin here, though one minor issue: Paladins don't have any restrictions or bonuses related to using/not using their deities' favored weapon. RAW is a little obscure concerning how the Tempered Champion's base weapon damage applies to his weapons, though even that doesn't really seem to offer much room for the interpretation that it has to be his deity's favored weapon.

[Molosse]

I tended to find that the Warpriest worked damn well for a Slinger build, particularly the Arensal Chaplain.

1/ Free Weapon Focus.
2/ Swift action Divine Favour.
3/ Weapon Training.
4/ Access to Advanced Weapon Training feats.
5/ Count-as for Fighter feats like Weapon Specialisation.
6/ More Combat Feats than the Paladin.
7/ Spellcasting over the Fighter.

But aye, as Psyren says, Large Target works wonders for Sling Builds and, with Sacred Weapon/W.Training/W.Specialization/L.Target and Divine Favour, you'll be putting out decent consistent damage. Benefits of staying Halfling with the Warslinger trait is you can grab Startoss Style for +2/4/6 damage as opposed to Slipslinger Style's +1.

Hell, really double down on the combination of Fates Favoured trait with a Halfling's Adaptable Luck Race Trait and grab Fortunate One and Adaptive Fortune for a 5/day floating +5/+4 luck bonus on an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check. Then grab something like the Calamitous Mail which, beyond being thematic for a Halfling Warpriest, will give a +2 luck bonus to all saving throws with Fate's Favoured.

There's a lot to like.

[AnimeTheCat]

I know in 3.5 there are lots of various alchemical items you can use as sling bullets like rust cubes that do 1d6 damage to metal items worn/held for 3 rounds (the round it impacts and 2 rounds after) and requires a move action to wipe/shake off. If you're not concerned with mundane armor/weapons as loot you can load up on those and really ruin a knight's day in a few rounds. That seems fun to me.

[the_archduke]

With startoss shower you are getting all of your iterative attacks at full BaB as a standard action with +6 damage? Did I read that feat chain right? I know it wouldn't combine with rapid shot or haste, but that still seems really powerful

[Psyren]

With startoss shower you are getting all of your iterative attacks at full BaB as a standard action with +6 damage? Did I read that feat chain right? I know it wouldn't combine with rapid shot or haste, but that still seems really powerful

It's not iteratives - you're basically ricocheting your shot amongst multiple foes. You're still only hitting each one once (or not at all.)

[Molosse]

With startoss shower you are getting all of your iterative attacks at full BaB as a standard action with +6 damage? Did I read that feat chain right? I know it wouldn't combine with rapid shot or haste, but that still seems really powerful

It's better to see it as something like a ranged Cleave as opposed to a standard action full-attack.
Also it's important to note that while Startoss Style notes it functions with any weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group, which the Sling belongs to, Startoss Comet and Shower both function off of a "...a single ranged thrown weapon attack", which the Sling is not.

It is also linked to your BaB in regards to how many enemies you can target. For example at BaB +5 you may attack the original target and one other within the first range increment. At BaB +10 you may attack the original target and two others as long as they all within the first range increment of each other and so on.

[the_archduke]

If the sling is in the thrown weapon group, why is it not a ranged thrown weapon attack? A sling throws a sling bullet.

[Psyren]

It's better to see it as something like a ranged Cleave as opposed to a standard action full-attack.
Also it's important to note that while Startoss Style notes it functions with any weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group, which the Sling belongs to, Startoss Comet and Shower both function off of a "...a single ranged thrown weapon attack", which the Sling is not.

"Thrown weapon" in this context means a weapon in the Fighter's Thrown group, not a weapon that is actually thrown.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I'd say step 1 is figuring out if a sling staff with the Versatile Weapon upgrade (Adventurer's Armory 2) would be usable with all those nice bow-only feats or the Gunslinger's class features. If so, this gets way easier.

Even if not though, a Warpriest or a Fighter with Focused Weapon AWT can really lay down the hurt with the options already discussed upthread. Weapon Master Fighter's probably best if you don't want casting, since it can get that scaling sling damage around 5th and gets bonus feats to help accelerate the rest of the build.

[eldskald]

The problem with casting that I see is that it's like, way better than shooting. If we stick to the warpriest (which looks great), a 3/4 BAB class with access to lv 6 cleric spells, the character might end up doing too much casting and too little shooting. Shooting is probably more effective with a full BAB class.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The problem with casting that I see is that it's like, way better than shooting. If we stick to the warpriest (which looks great), a 3/4 BAB class with access to lv 6 cleric spells, the character might end up doing too much casting and too little shooting. Shooting is probably more effective with a full BAB class.

The warpriest is somewhat designed to augment its combat with casting via swift action buffs and the like rather than blasting or control afaik, but the Fighter is also a strong option thanks to how feat intensive the build will be.

[Molosse]

"Thrown weapon" in this context means a weapon in the Fighter's Thrown group, not a weapon that is actually thrown.

Other than the obvious do you have any backing to that mate? Not saying I don't play it that way but my lot have always seen it as a quality of life houserule as opposed to anything official. Being as, irrelevant to it's fighter group a sling is a ranged weapon.

[Psyren]

Other than the obvious do you have any backing to that mate? Not saying I don't play it that way but my lot have always seen it as a quality of life houserule as opposed to anything official.

The designer's comments say it was intended to go with slings.

Also, I dislike when something can be read quite cleanly in two ways and the way someone didn't choose is deemed a "houserule." No, it's still RAW, just ambiguous RAW, and now we have RAI too.

[Molosse]

The designer's comments say it was intended to go with slings.

Also, I dislike when something can be read quite cleanly in two ways and the way someone didn't choose is deemed a "houserule." No, it's still RAW, just ambiguous RAW, and now we have RAI too.

Well it's a good thing that I didn't say anything like that is it mate? Simply mentioned that my group unanimously agreed with one interpretation, doesn't mean others can have a different one :) .
Still, thanks for the link, doesn't change much for me but nice to see I'm sorted in the future, also saw in that threat I was wrong about Startoss Shower/Comet. Actually gives another attack than how I was running it, which is a pleasant surprise.

[Psyren]

Well it's a good thing that I didn't say anything like that is it mate? Simply mentioned that my group unanimously agreed with one interpretation, doesn't mean others can have a different one :) .

You brought up the word "houserule", not me.

Still, thanks for the link, doesn't change much for me but nice to see I'm sorted in the future, also saw in that threat I was wrong about Startoss Shower/Comet. Actually gives another attack than how I was running it, which is a pleasant surprise.

No problem!