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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    When the charm spell ends does the subject know it was charmed? For example, my beguiler succeeded with a charm monster on a stone giant. He now has a trusted friend/ally until the spell ends, or he can recast every few days. But as we've been playing, the giant (while charmed) and the beguiler have gone through a few cool scrapes helping each other out. Do I have to keep charming him, or will he remain a friend after the spell ends?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    So, looking at the spell descriptions of charm person/monster and command plants/undead I can't find anything that says one way or other. The only thing I can find about someone knowing you command them is by looking at the Control Undead class feature of the pale master class where it says "An Intelligent Undead always remembers if you use this ability on you" or something like that (Here's a link to a post about it that I made about a week ago).

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    You possibly could know you got charmed AS the spell hits you. It is quite possible to make the spellcraft check to identify the spell AND fail your save, meaning you know you have been charmed but your attitude is set to friendly anyway. Unless a wizard takes steps to hide his spellcasting it is pretty easy to tell "I didn't like that fellow, he spoke arcane words, then I suddenly liked him for a few days before disliking him again." and guessing you got charmed.

    The ideal application of charm is on someone who does not realize you exist yet (to avoid changing preconceptions of you in an obvious way) and without revealing the spellcasting to the target (to avoid the target knowing you cast a spell at them at all). Then make sure to give the person a reason to like you when you do approach (to avoid unexplained affection, a good complement will do)

    Then all your target knows is they met someone who they liked and a few days later you lose your luster and they return to neutral, just a friendly stranger they forget without a second thought.

    As DM I tend to make Enchantment the most forbidden school of magic, over necromancy even. It's one thing to raise the dead, the dead are dead. It sucks and is bad, but at least good men can still fight you. It's another entirely to enslave others to your will with magic. Turning good men to dark or even selfish ends is a dark path indeed.
    Last edited by Fouredged Sword; 2017-07-17 at 01:41 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    As DM I tend to make Enchantment the most forbidden school of magic, over necromancy even. It's one thing to raise the dead, the dead are dead. It sucks and is bad, but at least good men can still fight you. It's another entirely to enslave others to your will with magic. Turning good men to dark or even selfish ends is a dark path indeed.
    This. Never interfere with someone's ability to make free choices. A geas to "never steal again" is far worse than imprisoning them for theft.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Yeah, I don't care to debate the morality of Charm spells. I hit the giant with the charm in the surprise round. I, and the party have treated him like a member of the party from the get go. Will he know he was charmed after the spell wears off? I see nothing anywhere to say either way.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Wizards has some 'Rules of the Game' pages with in-depth details on different Enchantments. I went through them but didn't see any indication either way.

    Given that, I think the reasonable assumption is that most charmed subjects would recall that they acted strangely and counter to their immediate inclinations. Astute subjects would probably just to the conclusion that they were charmed. A hill giant, on the other hand, would probably be too dopey to realize what happened to it, but it might shift from friendly to neutral or worse depending on how it was treated.

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    Crake's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by wookietek View Post
    Yeah, I don't care to debate the morality of Charm spells. I hit the giant with the charm in the surprise round. I, and the party have treated him like a member of the party from the get go. Will he know he was charmed after the spell wears off? I see nothing anywhere to say either way.
    Does he have ranks in spellcraft? If not, he probably won't know he was charmed so to speak, but he can certainly retroactively think back and say "that wasn't how I would normally react to people, and that one guy was using jujumajik, *gasp* HE MUSTA JUJUED ME!"
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    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    By the rules a target might identify a cast spell with spellcraft. And Knowledge Arcane would get a target the basics of ''there is magic that can control a persons mind and make them do things." And a Knowledgeable or Lore type check can get at least one story, tale or legend of charm or mind control.

    You can also assume that anyone in a magical D&D world would have heard of the effects of most common spells. You don't need to be a 20th level arch wizard to know ''wizards can shoot out fireballs that burn stuff'' or ''wizards can charm people into doing things''. Even if you did set a DC for such things, it should be like 10 (or even 5).

    But for the ''what happens after'' role playing...there really are no rules.

    A target will remember everything that happened. And they might think some things they remember were odd or out of place or even a mistake. Though, commonly it will be seen as more of a ''what was I thinking'' then ''evil mind control''. Unless the things done were really out of character or something they would not often willing do. Then that could trigger the ''I bet I was bewitched by a foul spell''.

    Again, in a magical world, it would be quite common to ''accuse'' people of ''mind control be-witchery most foul'' any time someone sneezed. (after all it happens in the real world...and we don't even have mind control magic...or do we? Dum dum dum....)

    So overall, even the most common average intelligence type person could figure out ''well some type of magick must have effected my mind''. Not that they would ''know'' it for a fact, tough.

    In most cases, a person will react a lot like they would react if they were tricked. So it could be a good or bad reaction.

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    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD Knowledge Skill
    Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).
    It is probably common knowledge in most fantasy settings that mind control magic exists, if not the specifics. As a DM, I might allow such a check if a target feels he was acting oddly and isn't quite sure why. If the target has ranks in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana), I would definitely allow some kind of check.
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Knowing a first level spell from the srd exists has got to be a dc 5 check or something. You can make that untrained.

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    Crake's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Knowing a first level spell from the srd exists has got to be a dc 5 check or something. You can make that untrained.
    knowledge of spells is a spellcraft check, which simply cannot be made untrained, unlike knowledge checks. Thus, if you lack spellcraft, you lack an understanding of spells and how they work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Humans are rarely truly irrational, just wrong.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    Knowing a first level spell from the srd exists has got to be a dc 5 check or something. You can make that untrained.
    Frist, you can't make an untrained spellcraft check.
    Second, the spellcraft DC for a 1st level spell as it is being cast is 16, and 21 if you want to identify it from it's effects.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    The knowledge of what sounds and hand motions make up the spell "Charm Person" is spellcraft. You cannot make this check untrained.
    The knowledge that enchantment is a school of arcane magic and it can make you like someone is Knowledge (arcana). It is likely common knowledge in most settings so it can be made untrained.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouredged Sword View Post
    The knowledge that enchantment is a school of arcane magic and it can make you like someone is Knowledge (arcana). It is likely common knowledge in most settings so it can be made untrained.
    Ah, right. That there mind-affecting Magic is a very low DC Knowledge (Arcana) check for most settings.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    Again though, hill giant. Not the sharpest spoon in the spoon drawer. It could very easily fail to realize it was charmed. I would even go as far as suggesting that if it didn't see the spell cast, it will most likely miss that it happened at all. They have middling wis too, so no great acts of introspection. No ranks in sense motive to determine that the wizard is not really acting as their friend...

    Yeah, your character just seems to have a luster that is attractive on a personal level that just fades after a few days as if the giant just got bored with you. It's like "Ok, tired of little talky man now. Maybe eat him now if hungry."

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    In the worlds that I run in magic is still mystical in nature so knowing that something is magic isn't "common" knowledge. Its suspected that if you dislike someone and now you are in love with them that you were under a spell, but common folk aren't studious enough to prove it.

    I will agree, taking away the will of someone to make their own choices is pretty evil, but it's so useful. A sorcerer enchanter is my favorite route to go down if I'm playing a sorcerer.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    I think there is an important distinction between prove and suspect. It is easy to suspect you have been charmed. It is very hard to prove without detailed specific knowledge of magic.

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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    I would say that suspicion of being charmed is enough in most cases. The giant has no need for proof. He isn't accusing the sorcerer of nefarious enchantment before a court of law.

    If he happens to notice that he didn't behave in a typical way, AND he happens to know that enchantment magic is a thing that exists, he can very well begin to suspect that he was enchanted and then (based solely on that assumption) can decide to do something about it or not. Maybe those are big "ifs", maybe they aren't, but there's a distinct plausibility.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Charm Person/Monster etc.

    I'm still a bit surprised that between the Rules Compendium, Rules of the Game articles, and the Official FAQ document, this never got specifically addressed.

    From what I've heard, 5E specifically calls out that you know what's happened after the Charm wears off.
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