Saga Edition: Force Power vs Lightsabers at high levels (branch off)

[Zanos]

Folded Space Mastery.

But yeah, Saga isn't that bad as far as d20 systems go.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's a bit like saying Grand Admiral Thrawn isn't overbearing and authoritarian for an Imperial leader. It's true, by a wide margin, but look at what you're comparing to.

[Nifft]

I think you misunderstood my intent.

I was never trying to convince you that you were wrong. I wanted to understand for myself how you were drawing your conclusions. I never doubted that your games produced the effect that lightsabers work best against sith. I didn't see why it was an emergent property of the system rather than your specific experience (especially when you admit to nerfing utf).

Just saying, "attack >>> utf b/c 20 > 10" doesn't add up (especially when the real math says utf should be +20).

Well, first off, I didn't say something quite that simplistic. I said that lightsaber battles were more optimal at level 20, and yes that obviously includes UTF to buff your lightsaber battle ability. It also includes skill checks being high enough to do jumps & tumbles.

Secondly, I didn't "admit to nerfing" UTF, so kindly take that false accusation and stick it somewhere. I do think that removing Skill Focus: UTF might make the game play more like the movies -- but the key thing here is that I think this because I have played the rules as written.

Playing the rules-as-written has also informed my opinion on low-to-high level play differences, and that's what I've been expressing in the other thread and here. This shouldn't need to be said, and it's frustrating that you're making me explain this level of basic stuff by trying to put words in my mouth.

But yes, these other arguments have been explaining things a lot better. While the base bonuses for attacks and utf are comparable, it's easier to push attacks past the base bonuses than it is for utf.

Utf has a quick entry to high power, but hits a rather hard ceiling by lacking substantial situational bonuses (like charging does for attacks).

It's more than that.

One example: iterative attacks multiply combat bonuses. That's an inherent difference between low levels vs. high levels, and it's part of the shifting balance from low-level (direct UTF) to high-level (buff & lightsaber).

Many different aspects of the system come together to reward lightsaber combat at high levels: talents, feats, Defense progression, the hard ceiling on UTF checks vs. Defenses (as pointed out), and so forth.

[Squared]

Actually - besides UtF issues (which really aren't THAT bad besides Skill Focus & a few specific force powers in the very early levels), Saga Edition's balance is pretty dang solid. I'd go so far as to say it's the best balanced d20 game, and definitely has the best Jedi/normal character balance of any Star Wars game.

Not counting the FFG Star Wars system I take it?

^2

[Zanos]

One example: iterative attacks multiply combat bonuses. That's an inherent difference between low levels vs. high levels, and it's part of the shifting balance from low-level (direct UTF) to high-level (buff & lightsaber)

That isn't technically true. You need feats to make "iterative" attacks, and the penalties apply to all attacks in that round. So if you have the triple attack feat you take a -10 penalty to all attacks to make three attacks that round.

Not counting the FFG Star Wars system I take it?

^2

I could go on a whole rant about FFG star wars, but with regards to the force in general it's only not a problem in FFG because all the force powers are borderline useless unless you have more XP than I've ever seen, and even then shooting it with a blaster rifle is usually a better option.

[CharonsHelper]

Not counting the FFG Star Wars system I take it?

^2

I believe that there is a reason that FFG keeps force users and normal in entirely separate games. (albeit compatible ones)

[Sparx MacGyver]

I believe that there is a reason that FFG keeps force users and normal in entirely separate games. (albeit compatible ones)

To sell more books?

Pet peeve of mine, sorry.

As for the subject at hand, well I think it's gonna boil down to: is the party a group of lightsaber wielding force users fighting other lightsaber wielding force users? Or is a group of (insert any other character type) and one lightsaber wielding force user fighting either a group of (insert character type) or (insert any other character type) and one lightsaber wielding force user (or more lightsaber wielding force users)?

Because if it's the former, then it shouldn't stand out much. If the later, then yeah they stick out like a sore thumb.

Multiple attacks are whatever, take a -10 to all attacks, but get 4 attacks (assuming dual weapon mastery and triple attack), but assuming jedi class, you should have a +20 attack at that point, plus all the benefits of talents and stuff.

I think it also boils down to, as written, other classes/character types don't have anything near the Force user's ability to put out damage, or get bonuses. Which I suppose is the point - Force users are like Magic users, if Magic is rare (relatively speaking), then the mage is wicked powerful. If there are more mages around, then his reign of fireball destruction is less of an impact.

[emeraldstreak]

I think it also boils down to, as written, other classes/character types don't have anything near the Force user's ability to put out damage, or get bonuses.

Other classes do fine.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Much like D&D, the main strength of Use the Force wizardry, compared to weapon users, is in crowd control and neutralizing other peoples' actions. Weapon users, whether lightsaber, blaster, other melee, or whatever, instead focus on hit point or condition track damage. They do two different things, really, especially as levels go up and Force damage tapers off relative to weapon damage as quickly as UtF modifiers do relative to weapon attack bonuses.

[CharonsHelper]

Multiple attacks are whatever, take a -10 to all attacks, but get 4 attacks (assuming dual weapon mastery and triple attack), but assuming jedi class, you should have a +20 attack at that point, plus all the benefits of talents and stuff.

Yes - but most foes will likely get +20 to defenses, so that -10 still hurts.

Sure - if you're still fighting basic stormtroopers a -10 to hit doesn't matter, but at level 20 they're not supposed to be much of a threat anyway.