OOTS #1084 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

Thrym isn't a frost giant, he's a "Gargantuan Outsider Deity" weighing in at 32000 to 250000 lbs per "Deities and Demigods" Is there anything more precise for Thrym's weight?

Depends where in Gargantuan he is. However, if you scale up directly from 2800 lb Large to Gargantuan, he should be 64 x as heavy: 179200 lb.

That said - Hel is the same size as him here - whereas in Deities & Demigods, her standard size is a bit smaller. So we can't assume that they correlate exactly to their Deities & Demigods counterparts.

Thor's supposed to be Large, for example - yet every time we see him, he's more Gargantuan/Colossal.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

Of course, given that many gods have Alter Size, it can be hard to tell what their in-strip standard size is.

[Kardwill]

And therefore can break the tie at the Godsmoot!

Smacks self.

A shame Elan finally retracted his demand for Banjo to be included in the northern pantheon. Especially since Odin was willing to say "yes" to that.

"Is it still possible to include a new god/demigod to the moot" is an interesting question. And "What would Banjo's vote be" is another one.

OK, I know this chapter's dramatic conflict won't get resolved in such a silly way. But still

[Alex Warlorn]

After this slaughter by an army of vampire spell casters, how many decent level dwarf clerics are gonna be left alive?

P.S.

After the complete extinction of the Earth Elemental Cult by the vampires:
Who is going to act as spiritual neutral ground for the clerics?

P.P.S. I wonder if the entire debate and vote is gonna become moot by Redcloak and Xykon finding the portal and beginning the ritual? Then again, an anti-climax for THIS after YEARS of build up with the vampires and Hel, would feel like a cheat rather than a twist.

[dtilque]

Oh.

So it does nothing? Then why would Hel even care?

Maybe she doesn't. But I don't really know. I just couldn't resist making a reference to the chair massage joke in Dilbert.

[danielxcutter]

Maybe she doesn't. But I don't really know. I just couldn't resist making a reference to the chair massage joke in Dilbert.

Paladins. Always so literal.

[goto124]

Oh.

So it does nothing? Then why would Hel even care?

Did you see Hel's (lack of) reaction?

[Matt620]

I'm confused: why are the vampires attacking Thor's clerics? Shouldn't they be attacking Dvalin's clergy, the ones who called for, and presumably will be presiding over, the dwarven council? (I imagine Greg's reason for attacking the clergy is so they could pose as the clerics themselves and twist the story so that majority of the council will vote yes.)

Or does the Firmament have those shared temple sort of thing?

Wasn't it the High Priest of Thor who gave Roy that stone to get him in Firmament? He's probably trying to ensure Roy won't have any backup. A few extra priests around would certainly, at the very least, keep the vampires busy.

[Quebbster]

It's quite possible that Thor's clerics are the only clerics powerful enough to pose something of a threat to the vampires' plans, so they get taken out early.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's... weird. How else does Dvalin call for the Council of Clans if not via his clergy?

I am simply not sure what it is that you are arguing here. Lets say his priests live in the capital (as would befit the King of the Dwarves church). They could sends messengers, letters, etc to the clans for a meeting in Firmament. There are infinite ways to convene clan leaders that do not involve a single cleric going anywhere.

It just feels weird to me that the vampires would attack a clergy that's not directly related to the task at hand, and only by virtue of their being a threat (because theoretically this should extend to all the other clergy, not just Thor's).

Why would he attack Dvalin's clerics at all? He needs the meeting to happen. Killing representatives or anyone else required for the meeting to happen is counterproductive.

GW

[Lord Torath]

So, no Allusion to something in American culture then?

Well, there is The Greg Initiative... Also Dharma and Greg.

But yeah, I think there's no allusion here, just a short, plain name after all the clever ones.

[elros]

I thought a lot of Thor clerics would be able to handle four vampires. Can clerics combine their turning ability to gain a bonus?

p.s. I realize that the answer is "it depends on the plot," but I was wondering about the crunch.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought a lot of Thor clerics would be able to handle four vampires.

Not if they are taken by surprise. Greg is very high level at this point - 16 levels of cleric plus all his vampire abilities. If the head Priest was, say, level 12 (very high, for a non-adventurer), Greg would still mop the floor with him if he wasn't prepared, which he couldn't have been.

Can clerics combine their turning ability to gain a bonus?

Not as far as I know.

GW

[wumpus]

Indeed. I edited in that piece of information. Still, I'd expect some kind of payoff for the "token can only be given freely" exposition.

Did Greg ever figure out the protection from the Sun spell? Or did he always depend on the staff to cast it?

GW

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

[Keltest]

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

Rich was actually unaware that Mass Death Ward was already on the cleric spell list. If you want to create a spell that isn't on the standard list, even clerics do need to research it. I believe that spell research is typically in the "Dm just makes up rules based on the spell" territory.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

No, it doesn't work like that, AFAIUI. Developing a clerical spell, by the rules (which we can parsimoniously assume are valid until the comic shows otherwise, which so far, if anything, has confirmed it), divine spell research works like arcane one ("A divine spellcaster also can research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless he decides to share it with others." (source)). That means that they are effectively teaching their deity a new way to shape soul energy to produce a new effect. Presumably, given enough time, that spell may become well known enough that first all clerics of that god can use it and then all clerics of all gods (in the same way anyone can learn Bigby's X spells at level up), but when it is first researched, it doesn't automatically get added to the standard cleric spell list.

As to how Thor didn't notice the backdoor: easy. It's the same way a developer of computer code does need his boss' approval to buy new hardware to run his new program, but that doesn't mean his boss ever bothers to read or understand the program being developed. He's just providing the resources to run it.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

I don't think Rich has declared just how researched spells work in OOTS. In D&D (all editions I'm aware of), clerics merely need to ask their gods for certain spells. It isn't clear how much identification is needed, but players are typically allowed anything in any book (that isn't otherwise barred from them). I'd expect Greg merely needs to ask Hel for Malack's "protection from Sun" spell.

This leads to the question of how Malack could slip a backdoor into his spell. Presumably Thor gave Durkon the exact "Malack's spell", complete with backdoor.

Here's my completely unofficial, best guess stab at it; I've decided to call it Blanket Theory.

The gods all have a big blanket warehouse. Every day, the clerics can request specific blankets that are in the blanket catalogue. There are soft blankets, heavy blankets, airy blankets, foam blankets, and they have all sorts of aesthetics.

A researched spell is a specialty blanket. It can be made and shipped, but the cleric has to custom order it. Once a cleric has made the custom order, that is saved in his account, so he can continue to order more if they need. But it's not in the main catalogue, because it's still a custom order. If another cleric wants that same blanket, she has to either design it herself from scratch and submit it, or get the design from whoever did come up with it. The gods can't just see that the first cleric has it and give it to the second, because that violates BIPAA (Blanket Intellectual Property Accountability Act). The second cleric has to either come up with the design herself, or get the design from the first and submit it.

Now, as far as having access to that design and submitting it (our metaphorical version of having a staff with the spell, and researching it enough to be able to cast it), that's a question for the mattress store down the street. I got nothin'.

[nbLurkerAbove]

Hel says "Just keep him (Roy) away from the meeting until it's over." I believe this implies that the vampires will not be at the meeting. Do they set up something before-hand, or does Hel have shenanigans lined up with help from another god?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hel says "Just keep him (Roy) away from the meeting until it's over." I believe this implies that the vampires will not be at the meeting. Do they set up something before-hand, or does Hel have shenanigans lined up with help from another god?

The meeting does not include the vampires, since none of them are clan representatives, so yes, they can't be in it, not openly. They presumably need to convince, control, or possibly even impersonate the participants in advance. It is doubtful Hel has another god to help her at this point, but it is possible, certainly. We will just have to wait and see.

GW

[Jasdoif]

Rich was actually unaware that Mass Death Ward was already on the cleric spell list. If you want to create a spell that isn't on the standard list, even clerics do need to research it.

Indeed, as was mentioned on the very subject of mass death ward.

I don't know why he had to research the spell in the first place. It already exists . It's not in the Player's Handbook, but it's in the Spell Compendium and Tsukiko already used Orb spells, which are also non-core.

She almost certainly had to research them specifically, though. For simplicity, I usually assume that all spells in the SRD are "common knowledge" and everything else is "obscure/non-existent" unless someone has researched it. That's because the bulk of the reading audience won't know about each and every spell in 3.5, but most of them have the Player's Handbook.

Plus, I didn't know Mass Death Ward was an actual spell until right this moment. I was merely extrapolating, I never checked any of the books for it. But it doesn't really affect the story either way, except for that I was pegging it at 7th level instead of 8th.

[Shining Wrath]

And, now, the anti-life shell will do somewhere between "diddly" and "squat."

I'm going to take it as given that anything used in the big Roy-HPoH battle won't be used again. First, boring; second, Roy would have talked to the Order and prepared counters to likely vampire tactics.

actually, as a ranged attack, he uses his dex bonus instead of his str. That's significant.

Thrown weapons use the Strength modifier to determine hit and damage.


I think that the current known size of Team Greg - 4 vampire / clerics of mostly unknown (but presumably lower) level, plus Greg himself - means that in anything resembling a stand-up fight, the Order wipes the floor with them. Haley's going to be invisible Pointy Death Incarnate, Belkar won't be dominated and has magic weapons, Roy's going to be going Green Fire Hulk when needed, Elan will be supplying minor magic and emotional support <"Slay slay slay the undead horrors">, and V? V is going to be bringing All The Hurt. Do not underestimate the power of an Angry Wizard, and I think V is going to view Team Greg as being annoyances along the lines of Kubota, even including facial hair.

Therefore, it won't be that easy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm going to take it as given that anything used in the big Roy-HPoH battle won't be used again. First, boring; second, Roy would have talked to the Order and prepared counters to likely vampire tactics.

This statement is way too broad. Roy will use his sword and his brain and his green fire. Greg will probably manage a few touch attacks, and also his Harm. A number of other spells will probably make repeat appearances, if only to whittle down Roy's HP.

The anti-life shell? It wouldn't surprise me if it was the first thing to show up, actually - possibly blocking access to the meeting or the like.

Thrown weapons use the Strength modifier to determine hit and damage.

Indeed: "The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll."
(source)

But for all we know, the power compensates for the -4 (since it likely also establishes a range for the throw). Not that a -4 will make much of a difference, and thus will never be established in the comic.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Thrown weapons use the Strength modifier to determine hit and damage.

Not without a feat like Brutal Throw. Thrown weapons normally use Dexterity on the attack (to-hit) roll, like any other ranged weapon attack in the game.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not without a feat like Brutal Throw. Thrown weapons normally use Dexterity on the attack (to-hit) roll, like any other ranged weapon attack in the game.

Did the SRD get errata'ed at some point?

Thrown Weapons
Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Source

Never mind, I see the argument now: it's strength to damage, but no mention of to-hit, so presumably defaults to Dex, because it doesn't mention it?

GW

[Jasdoif]

Did the SRD get errata'ed at some point?

Source

GW

Nothing in there says the Strength modifier is applied to the attack roll; only to the damage roll.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Nothing in there says the Strength modifier is applied to the attack roll; only to the damage roll.

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:

Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is:

Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty.

The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

[factotum]

As to how Thor didn't notice the backdoor: easy. It's the same way a developer of computer code does need his boss' approval to buy new hardware to run his new program, but that doesn't mean his boss ever bothers to read or understand the program being developed. He's just providing the resources to run it.

I think it might not even be him that's providing the resources in this case. I think this comes down to the Domain Agreement--e.g. a cleric of Thor who uses Flame Strike is actually tapping into Loki's power, since he is the god of fire. A Death Ward spell would presumably come under the portfolio of Nergal (since they were on the Western Continent and in the juridisdiction of the Western Gods), and he would be entirely happy to include a backdoor for the use of his servant Malack.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it might not even be him that's providing the resources in this case. I think this comes down to the Domain Agreement--e.g. a cleric of Thor who uses Flame Strike is actually tapping into Loki's power, since he is the god of fire.

Honestly, that sounds wrong to me. It'd be too easy to abuse (purposely tell your clerics to do nothing but use some other god's power), and would not match with what we've been told about where cleric power comes from. No, I think that Loki allows the spell, but it is still powered from Thor's soul reserves.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:


The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

I take the combination of this:

Attack Bonus

Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

With a ranged weapon, your attack bonus is:

Base attack bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier + range penalty

and this:

Melee and Ranged Weapons

Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

To be pretty clear: throwing a weapon which could be used effectively in melee, uses the Strength modifier. And I'm going to argue that Roy does use his greatsword effectively in melee, so long as he doesn't drop it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I thought a lot of Thor clerics would be able to handle four vampires. Can clerics combine their turning ability to gain a bonus?

p.s. I realize that the answer is "it depends on the plot," but I was wondering about the crunch.

Not any more. 3E used to allow Aid Another on Turn or Rebuke checks, but 3.5 removed that by cleaning up the language a little.

Also, summoning clan heads is probably done magically, through whatever iconography serves as badge of office.

[Chei]

It also doesn't say it uses Dex. What I can see is that:


The sword remains a melee weapon, even when thrown ("Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well"). Where does the "to hit uses DEX" comes from?

GW

All ranged attacks use Dex for the to-hit roll, but not all ranged weapons have Str for the damage roll (like crossbows or splash weapons, which do flat damage). Dex for to-hit is assumed, but Str for damage must be specified.

Edit: Specifying attacks, rather than weapons.