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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Are there any general guidelines for "basic necessities" by this general level? How many healing potions are necessary to keep people from dying all the time? Should they have +1 weapons by this point?

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Not really. Magical items are not a necessity needed to live in 2E. They are more like a special bonus. I've run games where the party has made it up to level 6 with no magical items whatsoever.

    (The exception, there are some monsters that cannot take damage from non-magical weapons. If you intend to use them any, it might be a good idea to start them out with some +1 weapons.)

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Not really. Magical items are not a necessity needed to live in 2E.
    True. But a party is at much more risk if they don't have a cleric.

    Frankly, I think the generally accepted amount of needed healing is one cleric at the party's level.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    True. But a party is at much more risk if they don't have a cleric.

    Frankly, I think the generally accepted amount of needed healing is one cleric at the party's level.
    ...With major access to healing. Not having major access to healing makes your cleric less a cleric, more a fighter/mage.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    ...With major access to healing. Not having major access to healing makes your cleric less a cleric, more a fighter/mage.
    I thought we were talking about 2e.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    I'll have to remind the player to prepare healing spells. We've only played 3.5, and we're used to spontaneous cure.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    The "spontaneous cure" is actually not a bad house rule for 2e, especially if it's a god of healing. I've used it once and had good results, namely the player suddenly "discovering" all the other great cleric spells that aren't "cure x wounds" and the like.

    And the number of potions really depends on a few factors. In some worlds like Forgotten Realms for instance, potions are to a certain extent readily available in town, so maybe having a few isn't out of line. In other, less magic intense worlds, magic healing is a lot rarer, so maybe they wouldn't have one or finding one would be a big discovery. It really depends on the game at hand.

    Heck, in certain time periods in Dragonlance, there was NO magic healing, which really can throw a group of gamers for a loop.
    It doesn't matter what game you're playing as long as you're having fun.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I thought we were talking about 2e.
    And Healing is a sphere of Priest spells, which certain priests might not have Major access to.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    The "spontaneous cure" is actually not a bad house rule for 2e, especially if it's a god of healing. I've used it once and had good results, namely the player suddenly "discovering" all the other great cleric spells that aren't "cure x wounds" and the like.

    And the number of potions really depends on a few factors. In some worlds like Forgotten Realms for instance, potions are to a certain extent readily available in town, so maybe having a few isn't out of line. In other, less magic intense worlds, magic healing is a lot rarer, so maybe they wouldn't have one or finding one would be a big discovery. It really depends on the game at hand.

    Heck, in certain time periods in Dragonlance, there was NO magic healing, which really can throw a group of gamers for a loop.
    TBH, if I were reworking AD&D from the beginning, I'd be tempted to leave wizards as-is, and put clerics on a system similar to 3.x sorcerers, with some option to access spells they didn't take as their "ready miracles".
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Wow. Shields don't do much in this game, do they? Do you think an oval scutum (as in Republican or Late Roman armies) would be a "medium shield" or a "body shield"?

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Honestly after playing 5e I would make clerics work as they do there where you get a number of spells you can prepare and you can use the spell slots to cast those spells. SO for instance you could prepare a number of cleric spells equal to your level plus some additional equal to a bonus from your wisdom score (perhaps equal to the save adjustment or something else) and those are your prepared spells for the day. You can then cast any of those prepared spells using your spell slots as normal and you choose which spell you are casting as you cast. This expends the slot but you still have the individual spell prepared so you can cast it again using a different spell slot.

    If you use this then you have to consider that AD&D has more spells to do the same thing than 5e does so you may need more spells prepared than default 5e for example in 5e cure wounds is the same as cure light wounds, cure serious wounds, cure critical wounds, etc depending on what slot you cast it with.
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    And Healing is a sphere of Priest spells, which certain priests might not have Major access to.
    I'll have to take your word on that. I've never seen a 2e cleric without healing spells.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Well, Dark Sun elemental clerics only have minor access to the healing sphere (spells of 1st-3rd level). I'm pretty sure the CPHB had several specialty priests with minor or no access to the Healing Sphere as well. Not that I've ever seen one of those CPHB priests played...

    I'm actually playing a Cleric of Air in a Dark Sun campaign. For a definition of "playing" that roughly means "one session every 6-8 months".
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    OK, let me modify my original statement:

    "Frankly, I think the generally accepted amount of needed healing is one cleric at the party's level who actually heals."

    [I think quibbling over this distinction is like claiming that when I say I bring two water bottles on a bike ride, I should have to specify full water bottles. To any competent reader a cleric's worth of healing implies a cleric who heals. But people wanted me to spell it out, so I have.]
    Last edited by Jay R; 2017-08-15 at 08:09 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    Wow. Shields don't do much in this game, do they? Do you think an oval scutum (as in Republican or Late Roman armies) would be a "medium shield" or a "body shield"?
    Shields are pretty consistently undervalued in D&D. Their biggest advantage is "Can carry more bonuses" beyond what just armor can.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Shields are pretty consistently undervalued in D&D. Their biggest advantage is "Can carry more bonuses" beyond what just armor can.
    Funny where I have been it was two handed weapons that were looked down upon though that was because non- of the groups I have ever played with wanted to play with the damage vs large creatures rules (or weapon type vs armor either for that matter) and without those rules (and in some weapons cases as I recall even with them) the difference in damage is so small that shields are the much better choice. Somewhat averted if you use the kote (though finding magic versions of those would be very rare).

    Heck even if you want offense a shield user could pick up sword and shield style from C&T (has to be that version so you can keep your AC) and possibly two weapon fighting (if your dex is low) so you can smack people for extra damage with your shield.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Shields are pretty consistently undervalued in D&D. Their biggest advantage is "Can carry more bonuses" beyond what just armor can.
    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Funny where I have been it was two handed weapons that were looked down upon though that was because non- of the groups I have ever played with wanted to play with the damage vs large creatures rules (or weapon type vs armor either for that matter) and without those rules (and in some weapons cases as I recall even with them) the difference in damage is so small that shields are the much better choice. Somewhat averted if you use the kote (though finding magic versions of those would be very rare).
    I would agree with both of these. The severe undervaluing of shields does not stop them from being a better choice than two-handed weapons in many circumstances (AD&D).
    Note, if you think shields undervalued in AD&D and BECMI D&D check out 3rd Ed - two handed weapons received a large power boost making shields an even worse choice (for most fighters, shields are ignored until one can buy an animated shield).

    I think the problem with shields in D&D comes from the hit point system - when you have a system when hit points reflect the general wearing down of a character then allowing anything (i.e. shields) to negate attacks makes a huge difference to the balance of combat (case in point, in BECMI if you use weapon mastery rules then anyone not choosing a weapon with deflect capability is effectively committing suicide in higher level combat).
    Shields work well in systems where combat is designed for weapons (shields) and combat techniques (parrying) which can negate attacks (see systems like RuneQuest), of course these are usually systems where it only takes one or two unblocked hits to disable an opponent.

    Besiades, if you think shields are undervalued, check out parrying in AD&D - at least 3rd Ed made "fighting defensively" slightly more viable; slightly.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I'll have to take your word on that. I've never seen a 2e cleric without healing spells.
    Funny timing, but someone just last night rolled up a cleric of Gilgeam in my Doom of Daggerdale game who has no access to the healing sphere whatsoever. Literally a cleric who cannot cast healing spells. (Luckily there is already a cleric of Lathander in the party who specializes in healing, or that might be an issue.)

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    I would agree with both of these. The severe undervaluing of shields does not stop them from being a better choice than two-handed weapons in many circumstances (AD&D).
    Note, if you think shields undervalued in AD&D and BECMI D&D check out 3rd Ed - two handed weapons received a large power boost making shields an even worse choice (for most fighters, shields are ignored until one can buy an animated shield).
    Yeah, 3.x REALLY loved two-handed weapons.

    I think the problem with shields in D&D comes from the hit point system - when you have a system when hit points reflect the general wearing down of a character then allowing anything (i.e. shields) to negate attacks makes a huge difference to the balance of combat (case in point, in BECMI if you use weapon mastery rules then anyone not choosing a weapon with deflect capability is effectively committing suicide in higher level combat).
    I disagree, but I would reference Hackmaster as a counter-example... while broadly similar to D&D in mechanics, shields do several things:
    1) They are the default for defense. Not using a shield puts you at a -4... using a shield is +2 to +6 (though, if your defense roll is not 10 points higher than that attack, you take a shield hit... somewhere about half damage).
    2) Shields provide cover from missile fire. There's a flat chance that any arrow fired at you hits your shield and, essentially, gets ignored.
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Most games I played in used a lot of shields. They were very effective heck even in games like Baldurs Gate shields are great at least until BG2's expansion where the enemies THAC0 gets so high that the AC cap prevents you from actually avoiding significant damage shield or not (which makes two weapon fighting so much better late game).

    Actually that is one way where shields may become poor if you use an AC limit and if it is too low (high I guess how should I describe that?).
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    I doubt anyone's going to hit AC -10 or lower anyway. Thoughts on the scutum?

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    I doubt anyone's going to hit AC -10 or lower anyway. Thoughts on the scutum?
    Body.

    Hold a shield so the top is level with your shoulder. If it doesn't go down to your waist, it's a buckler. If it goes to your waist, it's small. If it goes to your thigh, it's medium. If it goes to your knee or below, it's body.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Thanks! If only that piece of advice were in the books.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I disagree, but I would reference Hackmaster as a counter-example... while broadly similar to D&D in mechanics, shields do several things:
    1) They are the default for defense. Not using a shield puts you at a -4... using a shield is +2 to +6 (though, if your defense roll is not 10 points higher than that attack, you take a shield hit... somewhere about half damage).
    2) Shields provide cover from missile fire. There's a flat chance that any arrow fired at you hits your shield and, essentially, gets ignored.
    Nice - a much better way to handle shields in a D&D-type system. I sit corrected.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    A couple of thoughts.

    The original 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium has "Magic items for NPCs according to level" tables somewhere in the back.
    I've sometimes used it to equip new characters starting at higher levels. (For some reason +5 magical shields are overrepresented, but I'm sure your players won't mind.)

    If your players like exceptional characters, 5d6k3 won't by any means destabilize a 2nd ed. adventure.

    2nd ed. doesn't use damage reduction like 3.X. Either a creature is completely immune to your weapon or it takes full damage.
    Depends on what you throw at them, but above level 4, there should be magical weapons in the party.
    (More than once I've been reduced to hitting stuff with my torch for the measly fire damage. Good times!)

    Spells changed a lot from 2nd to 3rd ed, so make sure to tell your mates to read up if they want to play spellcasters.
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    A couple of thoughts.

    The original 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium has "Magic items for NPCs according to level" tables somewhere in the back.
    I've sometimes used it to equip new characters starting at higher levels. (For some reason +5 magical shields are overrepresented, but I'm sure your players won't mind.)

    If your players like exceptional characters, 5d6k3 won't by any means destabilize a 2nd ed. adventure.

    2nd ed. doesn't use damage reduction like 3.X. Either a creature is completely immune to your weapon or it takes full damage.
    Depends on what you throw at them, but above level 4, there should be magical weapons in the party.
    (More than once I've been reduced to hitting stuff with my torch for the measly fire damage. Good times!)

    Spells changed a lot from 2nd to 3rd ed, so make sure to tell your mates to read up if they want to play spellcasters.
    Things we have used when magic weapons are unavailable...

    Torches.
    Wrestling/Punching.
    Shield bashes with a +1 shield.
    Someone tried to get away with repeated headbutts with a +1 helmet.
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    Spells changed a lot from 2nd to 3rd ed, so make sure to tell your mates to read up if they want to play spellcasters.
    Fireball by volume. Lightning bolt into water. Haste wins a fight if you dare to cast it. Gods, I loved the challenge of playing casters sometimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Fireball by volume. Lightning bolt into water. Haste wins a fight if you dare to cast it. Gods, I loved the challenge of playing casters sometimes.
    Casting infinite wishes by Magic Jar'ing random badguys to take the drain. Save or die spells. Save or die next round spells. Don't get a save and still die next round spells. Having to rest 8 hours after casting Identify. Getting hit in the face by your own Lightning Bolt. Ahh, the memories... :)
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Misereor View Post
    Having to rest 8 hours after casting Identify. Getting hit in the face by your own Lightning Bolt. Ahh, the memories... :)
    Yup. Objections to magic being difficult to do well have led to the modern editions versions of spells and abilities that people tend to complain about.

    I can't speak to the magic jar trick, we were never that evil.

    Someone tried to get away with repeated headbutts with a +1 helmet.
    I do recall someone beating a critter with the party's halfling because he was wearing magic armor. Another thing that happened with our group a couple times was using tridents and nets to pin down monsters until the person with a magic weapon could get there.

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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Fireball by volume. Lightning bolt into water. Haste wins a fight if you dare to cast it. Gods, I loved the challenge of playing casters sometimes.
    Ah haste is good times especially if you play with absolute dedication to the rules. Considering that magic that ages you can cause you to have to roll a system shock roll to survive and haste ages you it can literally kill you and your party with the spell if you got REALLY unlucky. From what I recall anyway.
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    Default Re: Starting a D&D game at mid-level

    Quote Originally Posted by MeeposFire View Post
    Ah haste is good times especially if you play with absolute dedication to the rules. Considering that magic that ages you can cause you to have to roll a system shock roll to survive and haste ages you it can literally kill you and your party with the spell if you got REALLY unlucky. From what I recall anyway.
    So, fun story time:

    I was playing a bard in a high level game. My spells included Find Familiar, Haste, and Polymorph Other. Given some free reign with acquiring magic items, I got a few Ioun stones and a luck stone.

    Polymorph Other has a chance that the target will become the creature polymorphed into. Not just look like it, but become one in all ways. I took my familiar and used Polymorph Other to turn the little moggie into... a Gold Dragon. Give it enough time, and the familiar BECOMES a gold dragon (especially since its effective level is my level, making it a smaller jump). Then I load it up with Ioun stones that increase constitution, and give it my luck stone, making it so the new gold dragon couldn't fail a system shock roll. And then I spent a lot of time (before the game) casting Haste on it.

    How old do you want your Gold Dragon familiar to be?
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