How do Vampire souls work?

[FallenFallcrest]

Since Hel gets more power from souls in her domain, where do vampire souls fall into this? Vampires are free willed, as is said, which given D&D cosmology should imply that they have souls like other beings.

If they count in terms of clerics/worshipers, do they count to increase her power in the afterlife?

Do vampire souls go to an afterlife or do they just return to Hel to be reused? If they do count in the afterlife like Hel's dwarven souls, then she would get more power from all of her vampires that get destroyed, which seems to be a pretty easy way for her to increase her own power.

How is Hel able to conjure up so many vampire souls that serve her needs if she is so weak anyway?

Are they souls bonded to negative energy, similar to how the paladin "ghosts" in 459 were the souls of the paladins bonded to positive energy or are they not true souls at all?

[Chei]

From what I understand, they aren't souls. They are negative energy spirits, powered by magic. There's some distinction there, but Hel doesn't get power from them and they are destroyed completely upon (re)death.

I don't know how creating undead spirits works, exactly, but they may not require much expenditure from Hel at all. They are formed as a kind of shadow reflection of the living creature's soul itself - and it feeds on their lowest memories and grudges.

[factotum]

Yeah, what Chei said. The thing piloting Durkon's body right now is not a soul, it's an evil spirit created by Hel. Durkon's actual soul is trapped within the body, and we have word of Giant that in the normal course of events it wouldn't have got anywhere near Hel, since Durkon died in battle--it was the vampirisation process that trapped it in there.

[FallenFallcrest]

From what I understand, they aren't souls. They are negative energy spirits, powered by magic. There's some distinction there, but Hel doesn't get power from them and they are destroyed completely upon (re)death.

I don't know how creating undead spirits works, exactly, but they may not require much expenditure from Hel at all. They are formed as a kind of shadow reflection of the living creature's soul itself - and it feeds on their lowest memories and grudges.

That is what I think the most likely answer is in this case, but it seems strange that they would be able to count as worshipers at all then, for the purposes of cleric powers and the crazy rules of the Godsmoot.

I know that, for example, Celia is a free willed creature that works differently than other creatures, namely that she gets reincarnated after death instead of ending up in an afterlife, but presumably her species also can take divine classes, which is strange because a god wouldn't get as much out of a worshiper that doesn't end up in that god's domain after death. It is weird.

Edit: Yeah, Factorum, I read the word of the Giant here, but it doesn't say anything definitive of whether or not it is a soul. In 946 Hel refers to Durkula as a "dark spirit" birthed in her hall which seems to imply more effort on Hel's part than just negative energy filling the gap as needed. Durkula elaborates on this in 1007.

[fixed typo, said Cecilia instead of Celia, apologies.]

[Kish]

They don't count as worshipers. Hel is specifically barred from having standard clerics by the terms of the bet discussed in the last strip.

What she can do, is 1) grant clerical powers to any undead creature who falls within her sphere of influence, which would be more useful if they didn't automatically start at first level, and 2) take advantage of rules that state "X undead creature retains its spellcasting abilities from life."

Who or what is Cecilia?

[Quebbster]

I think he means Celia, and she would not reincarnate, just kind of merge back into the Plane of Air. At least That's how I remember the explanation.

[Reathin]

Given that the dark spirits are produced from Hel's own energy, it makes a certain amount of sense that their death destruction wouldn't empower her because it's already energy she had. It's a bit like a loan: she gives out a certain amount of power knowing she'll get it back eventually, but the "interest rate" is useful to her. In this case, the interest rate takes the form of deeds and activities that boost her power and influence in the mortal realm, rather than additional spiritual power.

Or, given that the vampire spirit is a parasite, growing stronger over time through absorbing its host's memories and the blood/lifeforce of other creatures, maybe a sufficiently long-lived vampire actually WOULD provide a boost. It's just not terribly effective compared to just getting new souls.

Not sure if we'll ever find out, as even if the latter IS true, Hel's potential power boost from her current plan is so much greater any alternatives that it's unlikely to be of interest to the story, and thus won't be brought up. The Giant has made reference to the idea that he doesn't always solidify background concepts on how his world works to avoid writing himself into a corner.

[woweedd]

Given that the dark spirits are produced from Hel's own energy, it makes a certain amount of sense that their death destruction wouldn't empower her because it's already energy she had. It's a bit like a loan: she gives out a certain amount of power knowing she'll get it back eventually, but the "interest rate" is useful to her. In this case, the interest rate takes the form of deeds and activities that boost her power and influence in the mortal realm, rather than additional spiritual power.

Or, given that the vampire spirit is a parasite, growing stronger over time through absorbing its host's memories and the blood/lifeforce of other creatures, maybe a sufficiently long-lived vampire actually WOULD provide a boost. It's just not terribly effective compared to just getting new souls.

Not sure if we'll ever find out, as even if the latter IS true, Hel's potential power boost from her current plan is so much greater any alternatives that it's unlikely to be of interest to the story, and thus won't be brought up. The Giant has made reference to the idea that he doesn't always solidify background concepts on how his world works to avoid writing himself into a corner.

Well, remember, part of the reason that Durkon* is so useful to Hel is because, given that Durkon was already a high-level Cleric when he died, Durkon* can retain all spellcasting abilities that his host body used to have, making him by far the most powerful of Hel's servants on the Mortal Plane, since Clerics of that level don't tend to die to Vampirism often.

[Kish]

Looking at:

but presumably her species also can take divine classes, which is strange because a god wouldn't

I also want to say: hold on. This isn't the Forgotten Realms. "Divine classes" do not require the approval of a god in any other campaign setting I know of. In OotS, like in every non-FR campaign setting I know of, a god could say to any potential cleric "You're not going to be a cleric of me," and might do so, should the god consider the investment of power not worth what such a cleric could provide with or without personally coming to that god's domain upon death. (The preceding clause could also be phrased as "should the god by a total moron." Although only peripherally related to what's under discussion, in the Forgotten Realms, Cyric lost the largest bastion of his followers in part because he treated orcs, who were generally inclined to ally with his worshipers in every secular way but insisted on worshiping Grummush, so badly that they ultimately decided allying with the Harpers and similar groups against him was preferable to continuing to work with his worshipers against those groups.) Even if every god said to a potential cleric "You're not going to be a cleric of me," the response would be not, "Then I can't be a cleric," but "then I guess I'm a cleric of a cause."

[FallenFallcrest]

Looking at:

I also want to say: hold on. This isn't the Forgotten Realms.

Weird, I have literally never read anything about the Forgotten Realms setting.

[Jasdoif]

• Note that effects that restore souls to their bodies don't function on undead. Some such effects can restore undead creatures to their living forms, as implied here; so I feel comfortable saying vampires don't have souls in the usual sense.
• Even if there is some method of extracting mako Soul Power^TM out of the negative energy spirit, "being born and living a life" is what increases the available power in a soul; since Hel is apparently creating the negative spirits directly, any sort of similar process would require an extraordinary amount of efficiency and/or a really long "life" to get a profit out of simply making them.
• Clerical investment, like telling people about Hel so she gets worship without necessarily having to expend effort herself, would work with outsiders like Celia (whose soul and body are the same thing) just as it would with undead like HPoH (who I'm still comfortable saying doesn't have his own soul).
• I'm fairly certain our only real measure of what Hel is capable of doing is what Hel's already done, so "How is Hel able to conjure up so many vampire souls that serve her needs if she is so weak anyway?" strikes me as putting the horse in the cart. It's entirely possible her complaints are on a relative scale, or on an objective scale expansive enough that the events we see aren't noticeable on it.

[Chei]

Yeah it's important to remember that the value of a worshiper/cleric is distinct to the value of a soul. They pursue objectives that a goddess cannot personally fulfill on the mortal plane, while a soul is an increase in her power - which is moot when she can't interfere with mortal affairs. Hel's whole problem with this bet is that she underestimated the value of having clerics compared to having souls.

[Kish]

Weird, I have literally never read anything about the Forgotten Realms setting.

Can't say that again.

[unbeliever536]

It's also worth noting that making vampire spirits is Hel's job for the pantheon. Depending on how things work, she might be able to draw on some sort of "general pool" of Northern power.

And of course, vampire spirits are not, as far as we know, obligated to worship their creators. The two free-willed vampires we've met both chose to do so, but I don't think that's necessarily true of even the other vampires Greg has created, since I don't think anyone's claimed he released his hold on them.