Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn

[Drasius]

I have half a company of the old Kasrkin models (plus a single new Scion kit for a commander, vox, medi-pack, and volley guns) that I got mostly via eBay right around the time the first Scions codex came out. The most I've ever fielded is three full strength squads and a command squad for Apocalypse, though I'm probably going to try them out en masse in a regular game at some point. Anyway, secondhand is the way to go there; that kit is way too expensive at only 5 models per to just buy all new.

Maybe it's just here in Aus, but the nice Kasyrkin models that were re-released on made to order were more expensive to buy second hand than new tempestus. Price might have come down since the re-release, though I doubt by much since OOP models generally don't go down in price, especially not for such nice sculpts as the old stormtroopers (not that the new tempestus aren't nice, especially painted in something other than the horrid paint scheme GW has them in, but those kasyrkin are, IMHO, some of the best models GW made back in the day and hold up extremely well even now).

Not sure if this is new or if it's old and I missed it - https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.n..._2_ver_1.1.pdf <-- updated Xeno FAQ's

[Cheesegear]

New FAQs are up (it's 2 in the morning FFS)

- Fliers got shafted. They don't count as being on the board when determining Sudden Death, which means you always need models on the board that aren't Fliers - or Forts, but nobody cares about those.
- Understrength units can only be used in Auxiliary Support Detachments. That's...Something.
- FNP stacks with other FNPs. Captain Artemis can ignore Wounds on a '6', and then take the Warlord Trait, that lets him ignore Wounds on a '6'. Giving his 6+rr.
- Apothecaries can't bring back models that fled the battlefield as a result of a failed Morale test - glad that's cleared up.
- Space Wolves as-written is evidently a trainwreck.

- Confirmed. Tank Commanders can't issue Orders to themselves! Tank Commanders have the <Character> rule, and can't order Characters, which is themselves.

EDIT: On Facebook, they said my question regarding Deathwatch wargear would be clarified...It wasn't.

[Brookshw]

So GSC GS's are back to being more expensive than Nids GS. Shame but I'm not surprised.

[Voidhawk]

Xenos 1 Changes:

- Monolith now has BS 3+, yay! But can't effect monster or vehicles with the portal of exile, boo!
- The voidblade now gives the bearer +1 attack.
- Reanimation Protocols can't return models that die to morale.

- Necrotoxin Missiles drop from Assault 6 down to D6.
- Razorwing flocks now cost 14pts, rather than 7. So much for that build.
- Archon Shadowfields don't turn off when the bearer takes a mortal wound.

[Blackhawk748]

- Reanimation Protocols can't return models that die to morale.

- Apothecaries can't bring back models that fled the battlefield as a result of a failed Morale test - glad that's cleared up.

So you mean we have to remember how many things we lost to Morale? That sounds like a pain, im glad Orks basically ignore it.

Also the Battle Wagons "Mobile Fortress" rule doesnt apply to those who ride in it. Well theres a massive letdown, excuse me while we all ignore our Battlewagons now.

[Yaktan]

For Tau:

Shield drones are back to having a purpose. Broadside + 2 shield drones is more durable now... but still less durable than 3 armored sentinels.

Also, it took 2 tries, but they managed to get Longstrike to buff himself by RAW. Longstrike best AA!

The sunshark finally getting all the weapons it has modeled is also nice. It is an interesting unit, might look into getting one eventually.

[lord_khaine]

Xenos 1 Changes:

- Monolith now has BS 3+, yay! But can't effect monster or vehicles with the portal of exile, boo!
- The voidblade now gives the bearer +1 attack.
- Reanimation Protocols can't return models that die to morale.

- Necrotoxin Missiles drop from Assault 6 down to D6.
- Razorwing flocks now cost 14pts, rather than 7. So much for that build.
- Archon Shadowfields don't turn off when the bearer takes a mortal wound.

Is rather positive to see that GW is finally ready to fix elements that are to broken. Even if it did largely consist of a big Xenos nerf as far as i can see.

[Turalisj]

It seems to be more that "units that die from wounds and units that die from morale loss are two different piles". Which I'm fine with, you have command points for making units auto-pass morale.

[Cheesegear]

I'm thinking of doing something fairly similar, actually - running my heresy-era Death Guard as Iron Hands Space Marines. The chaos codex seems to assume everything will be wierd and oogly, and all I want are some dudes in armour in tanks.

Well, I was doing something more along the lines of 'Imperial Fists suck, but Black Templars look like they'll be alright'. Then, painting my Imperial Fists as Heresy-era Black Templars. I'm pretty sure I'm being clever.

[Requizen]

3 Monoliths incoming.

Still not great from a utility standpoint, but they're much better firepoints now, dropping down Deathbricks and shooting things is a much stronger move.

Quite happy with most of the changes tbh. I'm fine with the morale/dying differences. Understrength is a thing but costs a Command Point, which I think makes it actually an interesting decision for the player.

[Renegade Paladin]

3 Monoliths incoming.

Still not great from a utility standpoint, but they're much better firepoints now, dropping down Deathbricks and shooting things is a much stronger move.

Quite happy with most of the changes tbh. I'm fine with the morale/dying differences. Understrength is a thing but costs a Command Point, which I think makes it actually an interesting decision for the player.

The problem with understrength units is that people were spamming them in the Troops slot to effectively get a Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead detachment at +3 or +9 command points instead of +1. If they have to be taken in an Auxiliary Support detachment, then whatever; they're not doing the thing that was breaking the Command Point system, so who cares?

[Renegade Paladin]

New FAQs are up (it's 2 in the morning FFS)

Heh. The last question in the new Designer's Commentary (which they didn't give version numbers to, for some reason) is mine, word for word.

[Drasius]

Well, I was doing something more along the lines of 'Imperial Fists suck, but Black Templars look like they'll be alright'. Then, painting my Imperial Fists as Heresy-era Black Templars. I'm pretty sure I'm being clever codex chapter hopping scum.

Fixed for accuracy.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Heh. The last question in the new Designer's Commentary (which they didn't give version numbers to, for some reason) is mine, word for word.

Huh you're right. They also didn't do the magenta text thing that they do for the FAQs. I almost didn't download it because I thought it was the same as the previous one. Not that there's anything really critical in the commentaries, but still.

Anyway it's encouraging to see a swift response to competitive trends.

[Cheesegear]

Fixed for accuracy.

Something, something...The Last Son of Dorn.
There are no Imperial Fists on The Phalanx.

[Tvtyrant]

So I headcanoning Primaris Marines fluff for an army I am splitting with my brother.

Cawl found the old Thunder Warrior designs and presented them to Gulliman. The new super soldiers are under the command of the Custodes and are extremely unstable, nearly khornate in temperment.

Army concept:

HQ: primaris captain

Troops: Custodes squads

Elites: Agressors, Reavers, Sisters of Silence

Fast Attack: inceptors

Heavy: centurion devastators

[Drasius]

Something, something...The Last Son of Dorn.
There are no Imperial Fists on The Phalanx.

So, you won't be painting any more Imperial Fists and you're going to repaint your entire collection, yeah?

Except, ya know, the ... marines who are on the Phalanx still paint their armour Hi-Vis yellow and run around calling themselves Imperial Fists, and that's what you played before TLSoD, as well as after TLSoD until you saw the chapter tactics. This is no different from 5th when suddenly every marine chapter was a non-red BA successor, or 6th and 7th when everyone was suddenly an UM or WS successor (yourself included, except when you wanted to use bones of Osrak, until librarius conclave became a thing and you could pick and choose willy nilly).

[Cheesegear]

So, you won't be painting any more Imperial Fists and you're going to repaint your entire collection, yeah?

I don't think I'll be painting any more 'Fists, any time soon.

or 6th and 7th when everyone was suddenly an UM or WS successor (yourself included, except when you wanted to use bones of Osrak, until librarius conclave became a thing and you could pick and choose willy nilly).

I stopped playing 'Yellow White Scars' when Angels of Death came out, and gave Bones of Osrak. I had Pedro's Great Gladius, except no-one in my meta would let me run it. Then I started running Imperial Fists/Blood Angels with the Lysander-Mephiston wombo combo, then I was running Cataphractii Tank Hunting Devastators out of Drop Pods.
...Once Imperial Fists were playable, I played them as often as I could.
Imperial Fists will not be playable in 8th Ed. unless their specific Stratagems kick nine kinds of ass.

[Drasius]

I stopped playing 'Yellow White Scars' when Angels of Death came out, and gave Bones of Osrak. I had Pedro's Great Gladius, except no-one in my meta would let me run it. Then I started running Imperial Fists/Blood Angels with the Lysander-Mephiston wombo combo, then I was running Cataphractii Tank Hunting Devastators out of Drop Pods.
...Once Imperial Fists were playable, I played them as often as I could.
Imperial Fists will not be playable in 8th Ed. unless their specific Stratagems kick nine kinds of ass.

There's playable and there's really strong. There is a difference between the two Cheese and neither of them is bottom tier, 7th ed IG/Orks/CSM/BA/DE level bad, which is what I would classify as unplayable.

There's nothing about the Fists at the moment, especially while no other factions have a 'dex at all, that makes Fists worse than they were a week ago when they were perfectly fine. You can still take 'Ravens, you can still take sternguard, you can still cherry-pick from half the armies in the game, there's literally no downside to taking fists other than the opportunity cost of running another chapter, which doesn't make the Fists any worse.

[bluntpencil]

There's playable and there's really strong. There is a difference between the two Cheese and neither of them is bottom tier, 7th ed IG/Orks/CSM/BA/DE level bad, which is what I would classify as unplayable.

There's nothing about the Fists at the moment, especially while no other factions have a 'dex at all, that makes Fists worse than they were a week ago when they were perfectly fine. You can still take 'Ravens, you can still take sternguard, you can still cherry-pick from half the armies in the game, there's literally no downside to taking fists other than the opportunity cost of running another chapter, which doesn't make the Fists any worse.

Plus, Sternguard are awesome with the bolter Stratagem. Extra shots for sixes to hit? Not bad, especially with Special Issue Boltguns.

[Cheesegear]

There's nothing about the Fists at the moment

Key phrase is 'at the moment'.

especially while no other factions have a 'dex at all, that makes Fists worse than they were a week ago when they were perfectly fine.

No they weren't. Lysander is trash. Bring any other Captain, play that Chapter, and you were better off.

You can still take 'Ravens

Yep. Even with the nerf, I'm still considering buying a second.

you can still take sternguard

Garbage.
When a Sternguard takes a Combi-Weapon, they lose their Special Issue Boltgun. They're a fraction of their former self. Unless you only run Sternguns, in which case Hellblasters exist.

there's literally no downside to taking fists other than the opportunity cost of running another chapter, which doesn't make the Fists any worse.

If you aren't the best, you're the worst. I've been told.
...And that only matters if I'm not playing against other Marine Chapters. Since Space Marines will have the first Codex, and my my meta is already jumping on the Salamanders and White Scars' train, I will start bottom rung..."But at least I'm not AdMech." only matters if I'm playing against AdMech.

Plus, Sternguard are awesome with the bolter Stratagem. Extra shots for sixes to hit? Not bad, especially with Special Issue Boltguns.

'Not bad' doesn't mean 'Good'.
Black Templars do the same thing with all their Melee weapons, without spending Command Points, in their Troops slot.

The Stratagems have to be really good to justify spending Command Points. 'Extra Attacks' on Sternguard doesn't mean anything, because Sternguard aren't ObSec, and therefore don't get taken in Battalion Detachments, which are the things you'll be running, because you want those CPs in order to spend the Stratagems in the first place, and Troops are ObSec.

[Drasius]

Key phrase is 'at the moment'.

Yep, so when you're not the only faction with a codex and free buffs for no points cost, then you can complain.

No they weren't. Lysander is trash. Bring any other Captain, play that Chapter, and you were better off.

Or just bring a regular generic captain for his rr aura and call it a day. IIRC, the only special character with a jump pack, and hence FLY, is shrike, so it's not even close to as bad as all that. Though admittedly, I'd rank Ravenguard as ... maybe 3rd on the list of best CT's (with 1st going to Sallies and 2nd going to IH) though they all have their uses.

Garbage.
When a Sternguard takes a Combi-Weapon, they lose their Special Issue Boltgun. They're a fraction of their former self. Unless you only run Sternguns, in which case Hellblasters exist.

And they still effectively get Dragonsbane on their boltguns (when not firing at 2+ saves) AND the special protion of their gun too. Or they keep SIA and pewpew -2 Kraken or -3 Vengance rounds at units in cover. They're not terrible by a long shot.

If you aren't the best, you're the worst. I've been told.
...And that only matters if I'm not playing against other Marine Chapters. Since Space Marines will have the first Codex, and my my meta is already jumping on the Salamanders and White Scars' train, I will start bottom rung..."But at least I'm not AdMech." only matters if I'm playing against AdMech.

I seem to recall a certain poster telling us that the If-you-aren't-the-best-then-you're-the-worst attitude is wrong and that just because you're "only" a 8/10 instead of a 10/10, doesn't make you bad.

Once again, you've not gotten any worse than you were a week ago. Were you crying about how hard done by your Fists were a week ago? No? Then why now when you've recieved a buff? Because you didn't get enough of a boost when every other army has nothing at all so far and over half the 23 armies will still have nothing 6 months from now? I've said it before and I have no doubt I will say it again - you need to realise what it's like to main a non-marine army before complaining that you didn't get all the buffs that you wanted. Remember to make a point of telling one of the have not codecies in 6 months how hard you have it with your ObSec troops against their army as your lone sarge captures a point out from under 27 boys/gaunts/conscripts on the last turn.

'Not bad' doesn't mean 'Good'.
Black Templars do the same thing with all their Melee weapons, without spending Command Points, in their Troops slot.

No, it means "Not bad", and if units aren't "bad", then I would suggest that they don't qualify as being unplayable. BT get to ignore cover, yes, but they have to actually get to melee to begin with. Yes, it's far easier now than it used to be, but you can still be doing damage from 48" away, can't be interupted and can't be damaged on your turn (outside of precious few circumstances). No cover against plasma or lascannons (especially in the plasma edition) is no joke, hell, even against something like heavy bolters, it's nothing to scoff at. It's also pretty good for denying MEQ terminator saves against small arms when they're camped in cover.

The Stratagems have to be really good to justify spending Command Points. 'Extra Attacks' on Sternguard doesn't mean anything, because Sternguard aren't ObSec, and therefore don't get taken in Battalion Detachments, which are the things you'll be running, because you want those CPs in order to spend the Stratagems in the first place, and Troops are ObSec.

Then don't spend your CP on them, spend it on one of the 15 other things you can spend it on. If you're not running sternguard (that you love, already have painted, have chater specific benefits for and enjoy fielding) because ObSec is just too good to pass up, do you really think that you're that hard done by with your codex? This is like complaining that you've got to run the gladius in 7th because sterngard are trash in comparison when they're perfectly servicable.

[Cheesegear]

And they still effectively get Dragonsbane on their boltguns (when not firing at 2+ saves) AND the special protion of their gun too. Or they keep SIA and pewpew -2 Kraken or -3 Vengance rounds at units in cover. They're not terrible by a long shot.

Sternguard don't have SIA. They have Special Issue Boltguns now. S4, AP -2. That's it, and you lose it, when you trade it for a Combi-Weapon.
Deathwatch and Sternguard are no longer the same unit. Not by a long shot.

I seem to recall a certain poster telling us that the If-you-aren't-the-best-then-you're-the-worst attitude is wrong and that just because you're "only" a 8/10 instead of a 10/10, doesn't make you bad.

I don't know. who would've said a thing like that.

Once again, you've not gotten any worse than you were a week ago. Were you crying about how hard done by your Fists were a week ago?

I've been complaining that Lysander sucks since the start.

you need to realise what it's like to main a non-marine army before complaining that you didn't get all the buffs that you wanted.

I know perfectly well what's it's like. That's what makes playing Marines so great, don'cha know?

Remember to make a point of telling one of the have not codecies in 6 months how hard you have it with your ObSec troops against their army as your lone sarge captures a point out from under 27 boys/gaunts/conscripts on the last turn.

Already mentioned that a while back. If you don't have a Codex by Christmas, your Faction will almost certainly be in trouble.

No cover against plasma or lascannons (especially in the plasma edition) is no joke, hell, even against something like heavy bolters, it's nothing to scoff at. It's also pretty good for denying MEQ terminator saves against small arms when they're camped in cover.

Interestingly, I don't rate any of those things.

This is like complaining that you've got to run the gladius in 7th because sterngard are trash in comparison when they're perfectly servicable.

Joke's on you. Pedro's Great Gladius - which I had - had Objective Secured Sternguard in the Gladius.
(I can't imagine why my meta didn't let me run it)

[boomwolf]

Wait, you rank sally as 1st?!
They are possibly my last.
Their tactics are great, but the relic, trait and stratagem are bad.


RG however, have a strong tactic, a strong trait, a strong relic and a strong stratagem-and the best of all, they are all synergistic.
They got a warlord that can't get overwatched, WILL make the charge (jump pack, advance and charge with a reroll), and can start close to the enemy.
They are probably the strongest.

[Drasius]

Sternguard don't have SIA. They have Special Issue Boltguns now. S4, AP -2. That's it, and you lose it, when you trade it for a Combi-Weapon.
Deathwatch and Sternguard are no longer the same unit. Not by a long shot.

Then enjoy shooting -3AP bolters at people in cover or take combis and enjoy shooting -4AP plasma or -5AP melta at people in cover while also having the option for your bolter portion to ALSO have -1 at the goons in cover. How are you complaining about this?

I don't know. who would've said a thing like that.

Someone who is wise beyond his years - some of the time.

I've been complaining that Lysander sucks since the start.

And that's fine, but a chapter isn't - or rather, shouldn't be, defined by what special characters they can take. Personally, I'm glad that most special characters aren't just normal character +1 because then all you see is Lysander/Tiggy/Khan Every. Single. Game. because there's no reason to ever try anything else since captain special does the thing better than anything else you could try. Default no brainer choices are boring.

I know perfectly well what's it's like. That's what makes playing Marines so great, don'cha know?

The stop complaining about getting free stuff that nobody else has. The instant that the first codex without some sort of ObSec comes out ($10 on CSM by the way), they will be 10x more screwed than vanilla marines will ever be since ObSec wins games all on its own and as soon as you don't have it, you're forced into a table or lose situation. Not that I have to tell you that, but apparently you need the reminder.

Already mentioned that a while back. If you don't have a Codex by Christmas, your Faction will almost certainly be in trouble.

And meanwhile, marines get a massive, massive advantage over everyone else and you're complaining about it.

Interestingly, I don't rate any of those things.

What do you rate that would get chapter tactics? Apply the same logic to them, job's a goodun' boss.

Joke's on you. Pedro's Great Gladius - which I had - had Objective Secured Sternguard in the Gladius.
(I can't imagine why my meta didn't let me run it)

Oh, belive me, I remember (but only when you weren't chapter hopping for yellow scars). My point was that it's a great example of something being brokenly good and now it's just OK (not bad, not unplayable, just OK) and that them being OK instead of eldar levels of good isn't the end of the world. You're not suddenly Tau for crying out loud!

[boomwolf]

I should feel bad that tau are used as the measure of being utterly screwed, but alas its true....

Well, we still have a few good toys...

[Turalisj]

I should feel bad that tau are used as the measure of being utterly screwed, but alas its true....

Well, we still have a few good toys...

No, not really. Everything we have, other armies have better.

[boomwolf]

No, not really. Everything we have, other armies have better.

Commanders and drones.

Also, post-faq the sunshark is even more attractive as the interceptor drones got buffed.



Some other stuff are decent too (not great, but decent.)

[Requizen]

After watching the review video I'm really interested in starting a Primaris army. I'm such a sucker for new toys and with the addition of the extra weapons, the transport, and the SUA options for Reivers, it looks really really interesting and fun. Maybe not as strong as all the options base SM has, but I dig the models.

[lord_khaine]

I meanwhile are slowly starting to dislike the idea about Primaris Marines.

"Your Space Marines were not special enough, so here are the new Ultra, Ultra Marines. Now 20% more blue! And with better guns!"