Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXI: Haters Gonna Burn

[Forum Explorer]

GW said it on a warhammer-community page (which I linked to last page). It's far from an official game rule, since it's currently not part of any Errata/FAQ, and most tournaments - the standard rules that most competitive metas follow - usually say something to the effect of 'Most recent rules, only'. Which means if you're like me, you need GW to state 'You can use Index entries if you want' in some sort of...Official...Capacity.

Well considering the book isn't completely out yet, just preorders if I recall correctly, and they've already answered the question in the affirmative that it's okay to keep using those models, then I would be surprised if it didn't immediately make it into an FAQ. Well, unless it doesn't because they already answered the question.

[Cheesegear]

+ Primaris Captain
+ Primaris Librarian
- Librarian on Bike
+ Primaris Chaplain
- Chaplain on Bike
- Techmarine on Bike
+ Lieutenants

- Apothecary on Bike
- Company Champion on Bike
- Company Ancient on Bike
- Company Veterans on Bikes
+ Primaris Apothecary
- Imperial Space Marine
+ Reiver Squad
+ Aggressor Squad
+ Redemptor Dreadnought

- Rhino Primaris
- Land Raider Excelsior
+ Repulsor

- Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armour
- Terminus Ultra
- Tyrannic War Veterans
- Kor'sarro Khan on Moondrakkan
- Legion of the Damned

Company Veterans and Captains can still take basically anything they want, despite the 'official' boxes being woefully lacking in wargear options.
Similarly, Bikers can still take Special Weapons.
Librarians in Terminator Armour can't take Storm Shields - saw that one coming.
Honour Guard lost all their options. Champion and Ancient have Power Swords - and Champion's Blade. Regular Honour Guard have Axes.
Sergeants can't take Combi-Gravs? Surely that's a mistake?
Venerable/ Dreadnoughts lose Twin Heavy Flamer, Twin Autocannon(s), Twin Heavy Bolter. Multi-Melta is still in, even though you don't even get one in the box!?.
Razorbacks lost Las/Plas, but kept Twin Assault Cannons. Yay? ...I think. That makes no sense.

Some units retained options-that-aren't-in-the-box, but others didn't. Where does a Terminator Captain even get an AGL from?

Take with an extreme grain of salt from local Blackshirt; 'Index Units' will only be legal models while the Index isn't discontinued.

[Brookshw]

Take with an extreme grain of salt from local Blackshirt; 'Index Units' will only be legal models while the Index isn't discontinued.

He's advancing the position that GW will officially tell people they can't use their toy soldiers anymore? Haaahhaha, he's smoking something.

[Lost Demiurge]

This might be a dumb question, but are non-Primaris Lieutenants a thing?

Been jonesing for that wound buff, but I'd rather point at one of my character models and go "Him, he's a lieutenant" than invest in some primaris right now.

[Cheesegear]

This might be a dumb question, but are non-Primaris Lieutenants a thing?

Yes.

ION;
Some pictures of a new White Dwarf show a Grand Master in a Nemesis Dreadknight.
Not bad in of itself.
But it says that you have to convert one yourself...Right after Space Marines lost all their Characters on Bikes and Dreadnoughts/Razorbacks lost half their weapons.

Pretty mad.

[LeSwordfish]

Sounds like GW showing off a cool model, not announcing a new set of rules.

I assume if the codices are all being trimmed down, the indices will eventually be replaced by something - online-only, perhaps - which stores all these old datasheets in a way they don't need to think about again. Seems strange to put them in the indices if they're just going to ditch them eventually.

[snowblizz]

He's advancing the position that GW will officially tell people they can't use their toy soldiers anymore?

Would not be the first time.

Buy newer figs ya dweebs! - Official Party Line

[Cheesegear]

Sounds like GW showing off a cool model, not announcing a new set of rules.

No. It looks like they're announcing new rules.

Spoiler

Show

Grand Master in a Nemesis Dreadknight.
Unless they mean 'convert the original (new) model into something more personal', instead of 'make your own'.

[Turalisj]

I heard you like dreadknights so I put a grandmaster in your dreadknights so your dreadknight can be lead by a dreadknight and your enemies can dread the night.

[DataNinja]

Seems strange to put them in the indices if they're just going to ditch them eventually.

Not strange at all. This way, people get a taste of the new edition before they do this.

How much worse do you think the reaction would have been if they just weren't in the indices to begin with? How many more people might have elected to not switch over to the new edition?

[hamishspence]

Some units retained options-that-aren't-in-the-box, but others didn't. Where does a Terminator Captain even get an AGL from?

It's probably for those few who bought the appropriate hard-to-find models - one of which is a fairly recent Collectors Edition model:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...nade-launcher/

[Cheesegear]

It's probably for those few who bought the appropriate hard-to-find models - one of which is a fairly recent Collectors Edition model:

Yeah, I know what it is. What happened to my 'fairly recent' Imperial Space Marine?
So, it's a box that people can buy in store, then? Currently.
Like I said, wildly inconsistent with how they determine how things are done.

[druid91]

Serious question. What do you mean by "Local Blackshirt" ???

[Cheesegear]

Serious question. What do you mean by "Local Blackshirt" ???

Blackshirts are the guys who run GWs.
There used to be Redshirts (grunts) and Blackshirts (managers). I believe that they had a problem with customers only talking to the Blackshirt (because he's the one in charge), so they all changed to Blackshirts. I was living in Brisbane at the time, as I wasn't a fan of the GW there, so I don't recall exactly how the change went down. Now they're one-man stores (except the ones that aren't). Except GW staff don't really have uniform anymore, but my local manager still wears a black shirt all the time. Although it could be the same 'uniform' as waitresses; It doesn't actually matter what you wear, as long as it's black.

Anyway, Blackshirt just means 'GW Manager'.

[Blackhawk748]

Serious question. What do you mean by "Local Blackshirt" ???

Local FLGS owner, blackshirt specifically refers to GW store workers.

[druid91]

Ahhh. The local gameshop isn't an official GW store. It's more of a Magic and Pokemon Card Shop with a single shelf of 40k and Sigmar.

[Turalisj]

So I played a game of space marines vs space marines today, using the codex. I was running an all primaris salamander army, my opponent had a mixed army of primaris and normal marines with ultramarine tactics....

Basic thoughts come down to- I had a huge advantage in hitting and wounding, between my 2 Captains and 2 LT I had my entire army covered for RR 1's, plus the Salamander RR bonus. However, I couldn't move as quickly as my opponent and couldn't hide my guys in transports, because Primaris really don't have vehicles right now. Maybe when the repulsor tanks come out, primaris units won't be shot apart as easily (2 wounds is nice but a 3+ with no invuln doesn't actually do a lot, especially for 20ppm).

[Cheesegear]

Maybe when the repulsor tanks come out, primaris units won't be shot apart as easily

Doubt it. The thing is ~290 points, stock.
But it comes down to what everyone has been saying; You can't run Primaris Marines by themselves. You still need 'regular' Marines to support them.

(2 wounds is nice but a 3+ with no invuln doesn't actually do a lot, especially for 20ppm).

Did you try using Cover!? The internet told me that Cover is really useful in 8th Ed.

[Turalisj]

Cover can be decent if you can set up around it, otherwise it's just in the way.

My eventual plan is to run a mix of death company + lemartes + primaris, but going to wait for the BA codex to come out first. Only one of the new primaris units I was able to put together before the match were a trio of Aggressors, which worked great for just clearing apart infantry and then punching vehicles in assault.

[Drasius]

Did you try using Cover!? The internet told me that Cover is really useful in 8th Ed.

Neither blunt enough nor sarcastic enough, try harder.

To be fair though, I can't see Primaris marines getting very far with being T4 2W in an edition where overcharged plasma exists, especially while plasma w/rr1's is such a large part of the meta.

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler: SM Weapon Relics

Show

Screenshot based on Captain; 4 Attacks, 2+rr1. 74 Points.

If your Warlord somehow magically isn't Guilliman or Calgar, then I don't see too many cases where your first-pick Relic isn't going to be The Shield Eternal, or at least Armour Indomitus. But if you're going to drop the Relics of the Chapter Stratagem (especially when you're Ultramarines, so why wouldn't you?), then the above weapons are...That. Some interesting notes...

Characters
Primaris Captains' only Melee option is a Power Sword.
The Captain in Gravis Armour - which you definitely have from Dank Imperium - is locked into a Power Sword.
Techmarines start with Power Axes...Although, per the rules, you can swap it for a free Chainsword to keep costs down... I don't even know.
Primaris Lieutenants - again, Dark Imperium - can only take Power Swords.
Chapter Ancients and Champions are locked into Power Swords.
Apothecaries are locked into Chainswords.
Company Champions have Power Swords.

EDIT: ...and another Thing!
Power Fists in the Codex dropped down to 12 Points, from 20 in the Index. Relic Blades are still 21.
...GW is taking the piss, right?

[Blackhawk748]

EDIT: ...and another Thing!
Power Fists in the Codex dropped down to 12 Points, from 20 in the Index. Relic Blades are still 21.
...GW is taking the piss, right?

You have no idea how insulted my Orks are right now. We pay 25 points for the exact same weapon. I mean, yes we are better (offensively) in melee, but not by that much.

[Drasius]

Spoiler: SM Weapon Relics

Show

Screenshot based on Captain; 4 Attacks, 2+rr1. 74 Points.

If your Warlord somehow magically isn't Guilliman or Calgar, then I don't see too many cases where your first-pick Relic isn't going to be The Shield Eternal, or at least Armour Indomitus. But if you're going to drop the Relics of the Chapter Stratagem (especially when you're Ultramarines, so why wouldn't you?), then the above weapons are...That. Some interesting notes...

Characters
Primaris Captains' only Melee option is a Power Sword.
The Captain in Gravis Armour - which you definitely have from Dank Imperium - is locked into a Power Sword.
Techmarines start with Power Axes...Although, per the rules, you can swap it for a free Chainsword to keep costs down... I don't even know.
Primaris Lieutenants - again, Dark Imperium - can only take Power Swords.
Chapter Ancients and Champions are locked into Power Swords.
Apothecaries are locked into Chainswords.
Company Champions have Power Swords.

EDIT: ...and another Thing!
Power Fists in the Codex dropped down to 12 Points, from 20 in the Index. Relic Blades are still 21.
...GW is taking the piss, right?

Table shows ... what? Point per unsaved wound delivered?

Also, at least swords aren't complete and total trash like they were in 7th I guess.

Also also, seems like a fist is pretty much a no brainer option for many things now, especially with the chapter master giving full rr to hit meaning that the -1 isn't anywhere near as bad as if you're just rr1's.

You have no idea how insulted my Orks are right now. We pay 25 points for the exact same weapon. I mean, yes we are better (offensively) in melee, but not by that much.

Wait for your codex before you complain too much, the marines got a rebalancing, so will everyone else when they (eventually) get their codex.

[Blackhawk748]

Wait for your codex before you complain too much, the marines got a rebalancing, so will everyone else when they (eventually) get their codex.

I hope and pray that we do, cuz the Killsaw is just straight up better for only 3 more points, so the PK has no point in existing.

[Cheesegear]

Table shows ... what? Point per unsaved wound delivered?

Points per Damage. The Burning Blade takes a massive hit at the higher end, as it only does 1 Damage per hit. Which is really great for dealing with those T6+ models with only one Wound and no Invulnerable...Oh wait!
Meanwhile The Teeth of Terra does bonus attacks and D=2. While the Fist is a Thunder Hammer without the -1 To Hit at 12 Points...While a real Thunder Hammer is 21 Points. Teeth of Terra also replaces a Chainsword, making it totally free.

Also, at least swords aren't complete and total trash like they were in 7th I guess.

Swords...Are trash? That's why you replace them with Burning Blade. I have to lulz a bit with the Master-Crafted Power Sword, because you pay 6 extra points for the extra Damage. Replacing it with a Burning Blade 'costs' the same as upgrading a Power Sword (4 Points) to the same thing. Wrecked.

Also also, seems like a fist is pretty much a no brainer option for many things now...

Crimson Fists are so good. But you'll see that when I finish my Guide.

[Drasius]

Swords...Are trash? That's why you replace them with Burning Blade. I have to lulz a bit with the Master-Crafted Power Sword, because you pay 6 extra points for the extra Damage. Replacing it with a Burning Blade 'costs' the same as upgrading a Power Sword (4 Points) to the same thing. Wrecked.

Like I said, not as bad as they were in 7th where it was Axe 90% of the time and Staff/Mace for those Niche cases the other 10% of the time.

I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest from the marine 'dex, but does it cost anything to hand out a burning blade (beyond the opportunity cost to have another, better relic) like in AoS or does it cost a CP to give a model a relic? Maybe a detatchment restriction? 'Cause otherwise it does seem a little silly.

But then, Best in Slot/mandatory relics aren't new and Shield Eternal all day every day isn't anything new either. The more they change the more they stay the same I guess?

[Cheesegear]

I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest from the marine 'dex, but does it cost anything to hand out a burning blade (beyond the opportunity cost to have another, better relic) like in AoS or does it cost a CP to give a model a relic? Maybe a detatchment restriction? 'Cause otherwise it does seem a little silly.

All Relics are free, and can be given to any <Character> (e.g; Apothecaries).
But, some of them (particularly weapon Relics), replace certain pieces of wargear that you already have. For example, you can't have The Shield Eternal, unless you already have/paid for a Storm Shield.
e.g; Cataphractii Captains can't take Storm Shields, therefore Cataphractii Captains can't take Shield Eternal. Models 'locked into' Power Swords, can't take Teeth of Terra, because Teeth of Terra replaces Chainswords, not Power Swords.

So, The Shield Eternal technically costs 15 Points - the price of a Storm Shield.
The Teeth of Terra, however, replaces a Chainsword, and is therefore free, although there is the opportunity cost of not taking something else, as you only get one Relic per army. If your first-pick Relic isn't Shield Eternal, it's only because your Warlord isn't allowed a Storm Shield, and is probably taking Armour Indomitus. Unless your Warlord is a named Character Guilliman or Calgar, then you may as well pick whatever you want.

Your army (not Detachment) gets one Relic - can't be put on a named <AA> Character.
There is a Stratagem for 1/3 CPs, used at the start of the game, that gives your army an extra 1/2 Relics.*

* It's things like this that I was hoping for. Because the Stratagem is used at the start of the game, it isn't on your army list - because you don't have to use any Stratagems. Because there are a bunch of Relics, and they all do different things, depending on the opponent, means you actually have to make a choice, based on your opponent. The internet can't help you make choices at the table. When Stratagems like Relics of the Chapter get involved, net-listing...Doesn't help. You actually have to be good at the game. However, you might see obvious Stratagems in place, if you saw particular unit combinations. "Oh, the net-list has Whirlwinds and Land Speeders, I wonder what he's up to..."

[Drasius]

All Relics are free, and can be given to any <Character> (e.g; Apothecaries).
But, some of them (particularly weapon Relics), replace certain pieces of wargear that you already have. For example, you can't have The Shield Eternal, unless you already have/paid for a Storm Shield.
e.g; Cataphractii Captains can't take Storm Shields, therefore Cataphractii Captains can't take Shield Eternal. Models 'locked into' Power Swords, can't take Teeth of Terra, because Teeth of Terra replaces Chainswords, not Power Swords.

So, The Shield Eternal technically costs 15 Points - the price of a Storm Shield.
The Teeth of Terra, however, replaces a Chainsword, and is therefore free, although there is the opportunity cost of not taking something else, as you only get one Relic per army. If your first-pick Relic isn't Shield Eternal, it's only because your Warlord isn't allowed a Storm Shield, and is probably taking Armour Indomitus. Unless your Warlord is a named Character Guilliman or Calgar, then you may as well pick whatever you want.

Your army (not Detachment) gets one Relic - can't be put on a named <AA> Character.
There is a Stratagem for 1/3 CPs, used at the start of the game, that gives your army an extra 1/2 Relics.*

* It's things like this that I was hoping for. Because the Stratagem is used at the start of the game, it isn't on your army list - because you don't have to use any Stratagems. Because there are a bunch of Relics, and they all do different things, depending on the opponent, means you actually have to make a choice, based on your opponent. The internet can't help you make choices at the table. When Stratagems like Relics of the Chapter get involved, net-listing...Doesn't help. You actually have to be good at the game. However, you might see obvious Stratagems in place, if you saw particular unit combinations. "Oh, the net-list has Whirlwinds and Land Speeders, I wonder what he's up to..."

Neat, I liked the idea on the tau commander re; fusion blades (but not the insane cost) and I still like it here, though some combos they have disallowed don't make much sense (ie not giving termie libbies SS's).

Cheers for the info.

[LCP]

Blackshirts are the guys who run GWs.
There used to be Redshirts (grunts) and Blackshirts (managers). I believe that they had a problem with customers only talking to the Blackshirt (because he's the one in charge), so they all changed to Blackshirts.

Eh? They changed because they wanted to cut back their spend on wages by laying people off. In the UK at least a lot of GWs transitioned to being one-man shops.

[Cheesegear]

In the UK at least a lot of GWs transitioned to being one-man shops.

I've mentioned once or twice before; I live closest to a one-man shop.
But I am in driving distance (<90 mins) of two multi-man shops. They all wear Blackshirts. All the Redshirts are gone. If 'Blackshirt' means 'Manager', then why do they all wear black shirts?