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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Somehow I had a hard time getting back into the game after rraching Manaan. I think I started and played for only 15 minutes three times before I finally continued properly. The town is a lot bigger here than on Tatooine or Kashyyyk, though that might be partly because of it covering five maps. Not sure if there are actually more "houses" in Atho City than in Anchorhead.
    Getting the old broken record out again, Manaan looks lovely. Though this time i noticed that three of the five town areas are copies of each other and the look out to sea is actually really minimalistic. There's just a an endless flat horizon with light blue above and darker blue below.

    Bit disappointed by the Sith Base. It looks identical to the Sith Base on Taris, which already was rather monotonous. There's also some really questionable level design. There's a room with two rather powerful guard droids after which is another room with two more of the same guard droids and an elite heavy weapon Sith trooper. After that is a room with steam vents you have to pass by with the correct timing, which turned out to be trivial to pull off flawlessly. And after all these obstacles the only thing I got was a computer console. Not a special console of any kind, just an ordinary console with the standard features that can be accessed from another console.
    Also, I have no clue how that puzzle with the airlocks is supposed to work. But by clicking doors blindly I got through very quickly. It also makes no sense: Why do you have tripple airlocks that fill with water if the corridor on both sides is permanently filled with air?

    I am now standing in the entrance area of Hrakert Station and I believe it was at this point that I stopped playing on my last playthrough seven years or so ago. I have absolutely no idea what's in this place, except for there being a giant fish guarding the star map on the other end. But the first coridor had me immediately think of Noverria from Mass Effect. It was the same team after all, and I'd bet money that the same person was in charge of both these levels.

    I've reached the 24 hour mark now, which is about the time I take for a 100% run of a Mass Effect game, including my first blind runs. And I have not even been to Korriban yet. There's still a good amount of content ahead.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Manaan is terrible and it doesn't surprise me you stopped there once before, especislly since as you've mentioned this game is a good deal longer than some later Bioware works.

    I'd never considered the similarity between Manaan and Noveria before, but you're right. It's a bunch of politics I don't care about and a horror-style segment. ME is just snappier with the politics I don't care about and a lot more exciting with the horror, partially because of a game mechanics engine that's better for shooter-horror.

    (The best horror segment in Star Wars remains the opening sequence of KOTOR2, though. Brr that place is creepy.)
    Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2017-08-16 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Also, I have no clue how that puzzle with the airlocks is supposed to work. But by clicking doors blindly I got through very quickly. It also makes no sense: Why do you have tripple airlocks that fill with water if the corridor on both sides is permanently filled with air?
    In order to break up the pace of the adventure for any wandering parties of Jedi adventurers.

    Same reason ancient sith temples will turn out to have Towers of Hanoi puzzles in.

    Also because then there are puzzles and the game is clever and not just a combat maze.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Another nice small detail I just noticed is that Bastila doesn't sound anything like Commander Shepard. Good voice acting is making the lines sound good. Great voice acting is making different characters sound like completely different people.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Another nice small detail I just noticed is that Bastila doesn't sound anything like Commander Shepard. Good voice acting is making the lines sound good. Great voice acting is making different characters sound like completely different people.
    Jennifer Hale has a remarkable range, although I can generally tell her characters when they use the same accent (like Bastila and Dr. Naomi Hunter from Metal Gear, or Commander Shepard and Satele Shan from The Old Republic MMO). Still, her range is remarkable, and all these characters are distinct; it's just more obvious who's her when she's going for Received Pronunciation or sticking to her natural accent.

    Contrast John Cygan who sounds exactly the same in this game as he does in his appearance in Metal Gear Solid 2, but it works anyway because he's amusingly hammy about both.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    I find that Satele Shan isn't so Shepard-y, but that Trooper Female is VERY Shepard-y, especially comparing Darkside Trooper Female to Renegade Shepard.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Somehow I had a hard time getting back into the game after rraching Manaan. I think I started and played for only 15 minutes three times before I finally continued properly. The town is a lot bigger here than on Tatooine or Kashyyyk, though that might be partly because of it covering five maps. Not sure if there are actually more "houses" in Atho City than in Anchorhead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Manaan is terrible and it doesn't surprise me you stopped there once before, especislly since as you've mentioned this game is a good deal longer than some later Bioware works.
    I hate Manaan. It's the one planet I rush through when I play because it is so crappy. I make things easier for myself by (1) not taking Jolee with me, as that removes that annoying side quest with his friend, and (2) having the solution to the Tower of Hanoi next to me so I can just do it and get it over with. (I'm not a fan of Jolee in any circumstance, so leaving him behind isn't a big deal.)

    I'd never considered the similarity between Manaan and Noveria before, but you're right.
    I didn't catch the politics, but my first thought when I found the Tower of Hanoi on Noveria was "well, this was made by the same people who made KOTOR. But why did they have to use the same puzzle???" (Can you tell I don't like the Tower of Hanoi..?)
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    I thought that the Tower of Hanoi puzzle is actually on Korriban. Isn't it that pillar with glowing energy bars blocking off access to a tomb?

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesnit View Post
    I didn't catch the politics, but my first thought when I found the Tower of Hanoi on Noveria was "well, this was made by the same people who made KOTOR. But why did they have to use the same puzzle???" (Can you tell I don't like the Tower of Hanoi..?)
    I've seen a point and click adventure with a seven level Tower of Hanoi. To be solved three times in a row. Good think I'm a programmer and know the optimised solution, because what the hell was that.
    And the worst part? They hid the fact it's a Tower of Hanoi puzzle by hiding the lower tower levels.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I thought that the Tower of Hanoi puzzle is actually on Korriban. Isn't it that pillar with glowing energy bars blocking off access to a tomb?
    I think so. The one on Manaan was the water tanks thing, IIRC. (Which, to be fair, is another clichéd video game puzzle that no one really likes...)
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Playing KOTOR as a kid who was bad at maths and puzzles really did a number on me, I won't lie.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    I'll be honest: I do NOT know how I solved all these puzzles when I played them, I think I did them through trial and error, and when I finally got it working I was like "yay that somehow worked!" then completely forgot the solutions afterwards.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by rooster707 View Post
    I think so. The one on Manaan was the water tanks thing, IIRC. (Which, to be fair, is another clichéd video game puzzle that no one really likes...)
    The water puzzle even makes an appearance in Die Hard 3, as I recall.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    No, that's the water tanks volume puzzle in the Hrakert Station. We mean the water lock puzle in the Sith compound.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Just left Manaan (more on that later) and ended up on the Leviathan.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Part 4C: Manaan
    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    The town is a lot bigger here than on Tatooine or Kashyyyk, though that might be partly because of it covering five maps. Not sure if there are actually more "houses" in Atho City than in Anchorhead.
    Getting the old broken record out again, Manaan looks lovely. Though this time i noticed that three of the five town areas are copies of each other and the look out to sea is actually really minimalistic. There's just a an endless flat horizon with light blue above and darker blue below.

    Bit disappointed by the Sith Base. It looks identical to the Sith Base on Taris, which already was rather monotonous. There's also some really questionable level design. There's a room with two rather powerful guard droids after which is another room with two more of the same guard droids and an elite heavy weapon Sith trooper. After that is a room with steam vents you have to pass by with the correct timing, which turned out to be trivial to pull off flawlessly. And after all these obstacles the only thing I got was a computer console. Not a special console of any kind, just an ordinary console with the standard features that can be accessed from another console.
    Also, I have no clue how that puzzle with the airlocks is supposed to work. But by clicking doors blindly I got through very quickly. It also makes no sense: Why do you have tripple airlocks that fill with water if the corridor on both sides is permanently filled with air?
    Hrakert Station might be my favorite dungeon in the game, though that doesn't make it a particularly great one. The layout and enemy placement is boring and there isn't really anything to do except killing regular enemies and looting boxes. But I like the visual design of the place that very much reminds me of various areas in Mass Effect, especially Noverria. At the end there's a small underwater outdoor section, which I think back in the day was an interesting fresh idea. Then you run into two survivors who have a long two person monolog in which they tell you the entire story of what happened there, why it happened, the full nature of the problem, and exactly what you have to do next to wrap it up. That's terrible level design. These are things you are supposed to discover for yourself by exploring the level. Modern games rely too heavily on scattering a lot of audio-logs throughout the levels (the equivalent of old letters and single diary pages in fantasy games) but at least they also make real efforts to show things through visual clues. And of course they don't dump it on the player all at once but give you some time to figure it out for yourself.

    Finally there's Jolee's murder trial quest. In which he playes almost no part except for inteoducing you to the quest giver. Bioware seems to love it's trial quests just as much as I don't. But this one gets bonus points for the suspect actually being guilty. I chose to play the proper lawyer and not provide evidence for his guilt or try to lie to get him free, but present evidence and arguments for a reduced severity of his crime. And his sentenc was reduced to prison for life. Yay, huge success.

    As many problems as this part of the game has, it's still one of my favorite. Largely because it's so nice and pretty.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    You can get him actually acquitted without lying (except by omission--you can't get any result than "he'll be summarily executed" if you say outright that you know he's guilty), just so you know.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    I assumed that it was possible but that's the outcome I was aiming for and happy that I could get it.
    They put some more thought into this than usual by giving more than pure black and white outcomes. (Which became a much more common thing with the morality system in Mass Effect later on.) Even Jolee says that he wouldn't rule out that his good friend did it, since things can change a lot in 20 years. It's not the standard approach to right and wrong in games.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Oh. Well that's interesting.

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    He did it. You can find proof and get him to confess to you, though he won't plead guilty and if you hand that proof over to the Selkath they have him executed immediately; I didn't realize you hadn't found proof.

    Might not be able to if you dumped Charisma, actually.
    Last edited by Kish; 2017-08-29 at 06:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    I had proof, I just didn't bring it up as the defense.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    As I recall though, getting him released when you know he did it is a Dark Side option.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    So...why did your Jolee say he wouldn't rule out that he'd done it, instead of that he knew he'd done it?

    You don't get Dark Side points for getting him acquitted, or only if you do it by explicitly underhanded methods (bribery, mind control, not just arguing the case better than the prosecutor). On the other hand, if there's any way to get Light Side points from anything around the trial, I've never discovered it.

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Well, that was before we found the proof.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    I liked Jolee because he has fun stories, and doesn't require you to engage in therapy of him like some of the other characters. Jolee, HK-47, Canderous, and M3, are the party members I recall not needing to engage in therapy for. They had stories, HK-47 could upgrades for himself from you using your repair skill.

    As for Manaan, If you find out that Jolee's friend is actually guilty and agree to get him off, you earn a dark side point. You can skip the trial by presenting your found evidence of his guilt as proof. Of course, you find send proof in the sith compound place I think. This allows you to basically get him punished fully. And you don't have to do any trail stuff.

    Personally, I found the trail on Dantioone much better implemented because it happens to be more interesting, and you get to do more. You can talk to the droid about details found out, talk to the two suspects, and talk with the Jedi who asked for your help. On Manaan, you have to investigate, then present the evidence to the selkath, who frankly have an appalling voice-over. I really don't like the selkath voices. They always sound like they are made of water and just speaking through bubbles all the time. Always wanted to just carve all of them up.

    I liked Tatioone because it had HK and you could interact with the sand people. Kashyyyk has the wookiees and Jolee, and Korriban was sith world. But I could never get what the point of Manaan was. So the Republic was drilling somewhere, and it upset a fish? Nearly everything about Manaan reads like some environmentalist's track compared to the other places. Solving the planet involves breaking the drill or committing an environmental bad deed. Manaan also has little real history relating to the fact the star map is there. The other places have a history that explains why it was there, but Manaan feels to much like the writers needed another planet, and so went for water world.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Quote Originally Posted by russdm View Post
    As for Manaan, If you find out that Jolee's friend is actually guilty and agree to get him off, you earn a dark side point.
    This is inaccurate. I can well believe you said/did something that got you dark side points related to the case, but it wasn't simply "yes, I'll still act as your lawyer."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    This is inaccurate. I can well believe you said/did something that got you dark side points related to the case, but it wasn't simply "yes, I'll still act as your lawyer."
    Well, if I recall, you had to confront him with the truth, then agree to help him still, then get him off on the charges. It then gives you a dark side point for letting a confirmed murderer go. I think this may need to be looked up, but that is the outcome I recall.

    Ah, if you agree to keep his secret, you will get dark side points. I think it would also relate to probably agreeing to get him as well. Checking. Weirdly, I got dark side points for successfully defending him, but not through agreeing to keep the secret. Maybe it just fires off later after the trial. Will have to see when I reach that point in my playthroughs of the game.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    None of the things you're saying get you Dark Side points have in my games. Therefore, there must be something else off here (are you telling him "yay, a dead Sith"? Getting him off by bribery or mind control? How exactly is "telling him you'll keep his secret" phrased?). Regardless: you don't get Dark Side points for telling him you know he's guilty and then, when he refuses to confess, still representing him and getting him acquitted; any Dark Side points you get during the trial are from something other than "knowingly defending a guilty murderer." That said, I'm going to bow out here, as I don't want to be part of derailing Yora's thread again.
    Last edited by Kish; 2017-09-01 at 10:04 AM.

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    Part 5: The Leviathan

    I knew this was a part of this game and I must have played through it back when I played through the whole game 14 years ago. But I couldn't remember a single room or scene and it was all like it was completely new to me. Which is rather unusual for me. Usually I remember even enemy placement years later. But having played the full game only once and such a long time ago has left me with very blurry memories of what else is in this game. I don't really remember much of Korriban either.

    The beginning of this section made me realize something that had been visible in the game the whole time. Shots of ships moving through space (I think it might even always be the Leviathan) are always really boring and way too long. You just get a shot of a small ship hovering in space with nothing happening.
    The whole part of getting captured is also done in a very weak way. You get caught in a tractor beam and after a loading screen you're right in the torture chamber. That's just really underwhelming.

    I selected Mission to do the breakout and I have to say I really do appreciate that they gave the supposedly 14 year old girl non-sexy underwear. Would have been easier to slap the same standard outfit on all characters. The breakout mission itself was too short in my opinion. Talking with the Rodian in the cell was nice, but after that it was just grabbing a blaster and armor and killing a few soldiers and that was it. It'sof course a somewhat unfair comparison, but think about the second section of Mass Effect 2. It doesn't really have any fancy technical features but is so many more times interesting in the way it is set up and arranged.

    I was not a fan of having to drag Carth along the whole time. It's the end of his storyline, I believe, but I just don't care for it one bit. The outdoor section was a fun idea, but it really consists of just one room with one door at one end and another door at the other end and nothing inbetween but a view of space. The next time the designers tried something similar was the final dungeon of Mass Effect, and that one is one of the most thrilling and awesome levels I ever played. The battle on the bridge turned out to be actually pretty easy, even though I didn't think much ahead and was dropped into it without any advanced preparation. This is not a hard game, even playing it on Hard.

    And finally there's of course the encounter with Malak. I do like that a few minutes earlier they established "let's get back to the ship quickly now and leave, before Malak comes back". And then "Surprise, he's already here. Right behind this door." I did not see that coming (and had completely forgotten about it). The fight with Malak was rather lame, though. First he stuns Bastilla and Carth indefinitely so you can fight one on one, but he never attacks them. It just feels arbitrary and forced. And then he does the obnoxious "You have hurt me a lot, but I mock you for being weak and then run away to another room where we continue" thing. How does that add anything to the fight?
    And again we have a silly moment of "I stay here and keep him busy while you escape". Again followed by the door instantly closing and cutting you off so that there is no possible way to interfere with it. Again, it's really cheap and cheesy.

    And of course, there's the big twist! That actually isn't much of one. As twists go, this one is actually really weak. Because it changes nothing.
    A great twist does one of two things: It either makes the audience realize that they have been missing something really important that was very clearly forshadowed and hinted at the whole time. Or alternatively it completely disrupts and upheaves the balance of power and requires everyone to completely rethink their future plans. The reveal that the main character is a mind wiped Darth Revan comes as a big surprise, but it does not change anything. It does not put what happened so far into a completely different light, and it also doesn't make any difference for what is going to happen next. In fact, the entire story of the game would work just the same if they cut all references to being Revan in the very last minute. It would all work just as well if you were playing a random soldier of the Republic who learns Jedi powers and may turn to the Dark Side at the end.
    It's one of the most famous videogame twist, but as twists go it's really lame.
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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    Okay, the one thing I have a response to in that post is:

    Supposedly 14 year old? What age do you think Mission actually is (and why)?

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    Default Re: Yora plays Knights of the Old Republic (This time for real!)

    She's actually just as tall as everyone else.

    And she's a murder killing machine with blasters hanging around in ghoul infested sewers. Not that this is anything unusual in the world of action fiction. Children being badass warriors and master thieves who can disable top grade military security are a very ordinary occurance in these worlds.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying

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