Conjure Ice Beast seems a bit too powerful.

[RoboEmperor]

Not sure I really want a giant crocodile without improved grab over that.

Why would you prefer improved grab over an instant pin that targets reflex save?

[eggynack]

Why would you prefer improved grab over an instant pin that targets reflex save?

I suppose there's an advantage to that, though I appreciate that improved grab operates off of the crocodile's big and damaging attack instead of just being the attack in itself. Engulf is arguably better if you're comparing the grapple to it directly, but 21 damage with a +11 to hit is solid.

[RoboEmperor]

I suppose there's an advantage to that, though I appreciate that improved grab operates off of the crocodile's big and damaging attack instead of just being the attack in itself. Engulf is arguably better if you're comparing the grapple to it directly, but 21 damage with a +11 to hit is solid.

Giant Crocodile is NA IV, not SMIV. SMIV needs to use Fiendish Dire Wolves.

The advantage here is, you can get 2 dire wolf ice beasts instead of the 1 crocodile with CIB IV, so you get 2 tries to engulf at DC20, engulfed creatures get 2d6 damage a round, and instant pin means the opponent has to waste a standard action to get out of the pin before he can start damaging the CIB, more if he fails to escape the pin, at which point the 2nd CIB can start trying to engulf the grappled victim, who has no dex bonus. So that's basically a perma-pin, which should be superior to the giant crocodile.

From the damage standpoint, you're right 21 damage a round is really nice. 2 dire icewolves can only do 6d6 ice damage for blast, which is 21 as well, but that's once every 1d4 rounds.

edit: I might be wrong about the 2nd ice beast engulfing while grappling. When you're pinned you're inside the creature's body for sure, but once you escape pin, are you still inside the body, trying to emerge from the Ice Beast's mouth, or have you fully emerged and are wrestling with the ice beast? By strict RAW, I think you're still inside the body.

[Bronk]

You'd be better off using a pair of huge monstrous centipedes (which come online at spell level 3) for better grappling. 6HD would also grant a 3d6 cold breath.

[RoboEmperor]

You'd be better off using a pair of huge monstrous centipedes (which come online at spell level 3) for better grappling. 6HD would also grant a 3d6 cold breath.

They both have 6hd, both have +15 grapple, one is large with 25 STR therefore DC20 on the reflex save, and the other is Huge with a 17 STR therefore DC16 reflex save. The only time i'd pick the centipede over the dire wolf is if the target is large size.

[Bronk]

They both have 6hd, both have +15 grapple, one is large with 25 STR therefore DC20 on the reflex save, and the other is Huge with a 17 STR therefore DC16 reflex save. The only time i'd pick the centipede over the dire wolf is if the target is large size.

I'd pick the centipede because it comes online two levels earlier, is tougher, and with CIB IV you'd get two of them instead of one.

Edit: I see the regular dire wolf comes up at the same level... I'd still go for the huge creature with the larger hit point bonus.

[RoboEmperor]

Edit: I see the regular dire wolf comes up at the same level... I'd still go for the huge creature with the larger hit point bonus.

Dire Wolf: 45(listed hp) + 30 (construct) - 18(con bonus 3*6) = 57hp
Huge Centipede: 33(listed hp) + 40 (construct) - 6 (con bonus, 1*6) = 67hp

So you're trading +4 DC for 10hp. I don't think that's a good trade. I'd only go centipede if I absolutely have to.

[Bronk]

Dire Wolf: 45(listed hp) + 30 (construct) - 18(con bonus 3*6) = 57hp
Huge Centipede: 33(listed hp) + 40 (construct) - 6 (con bonus, 1*6) = 67hp

So you're trading +4 DC for 10hp. I don't think that's a good trade. I'd only go centipede if I absolutely have to.

Since I would generally use these guys against swarms, that would usually be a good trade for me.

[eggynack]

Giant Crocodile is NA IV, not SMIV. SMIV needs to use Fiendish Dire Wolves.

The advantage here is, you can get 2 dire wolf ice beasts instead of the 1 crocodile with CIB IV, so you get 2 tries to engulf at DC20, engulfed creatures get 2d6 damage a round, and instant pin means the opponent has to waste a standard action to get out of the pin before he can start damaging the CIB, more if he fails to escape the pin, at which point the 2nd CIB can start trying to engulf the grappled victim, who has no dex bonus. So that's basically a perma-pin, which should be superior to the giant crocodile.

Conjure ice beast pulls from both the SNA list and the SM list. Hence, the comparison between ice crocodile and the array of summon monster possibilities.

[RoboEmperor]

This is just too hilarious for me to keep to myself! I was researching how to get Fiery Burst on a cleric at level 3 and came across Energy Subsitution! By RAW, you can apply it to any spell with an energy descriptor, even if it doesn't deal damage!

So yeah! You can create beasts made up of living flame, living lightning, or living acid!

Anyone have any ideas to capitalize on this discovery? XD

A spontaneous divine caster with 3 energy substitutions (acid, electricity, and fire) is the true master of elementals!

[Eldariel]

This is just too hilarious for me to keep to myself! I was researching how to get Fiery Burst on a cleric at level 3 and came across Energy Subsitution! By RAW, you can apply it to any spell with an energy descriptor, even if it doesn't deal damage!

So yeah! You can create beasts made up of living flame, living lightning, or living acid!

Anyone have any ideas to capitalize on this discovery? XD

A spontaneous divine caster with 3 energy substitutions (acid, electricity, and fire) is the true master of elementals!

I've made the various Clerics of Tiamat in RHoD use different variants of this. Five heads, five elements. Though there are no comparable templates so it gets a bit weird with some of the abilities.