(long post) Multi-classing into Rogue feels great for every martial class...

[TheUser]

Just a weird phenomenon I've encountered in my character building that after most of the martial classes I play hit level 5-7, switching gears to rogue feels like the most optimal thing to do....

Backstory:
I was building an NPC to accompany 2 players in a quick oneshot recently.
He needed to be very strong, and absorb horrendous amounts of damage; one player was a bard the other a wildmage which means the party had strengths in social skills, support, healing and magic; they needed frontline strength bruiser. PC's were starting at level 12 and the first theory crafted iteration of their tag along NPC started off as a level 12 Goliath Bear Totem Barbarian for maximum strength and smashy smash appeal. A big dumb lug who the party ordered around to do stuff and provided the muscle for the group (4x lift capacity is hilarious and with the Enlarge spell added greatly to the shenanigans).

After re-affirming the purpose this NPC would serve for these two players I got to thinking about how much Uncanny Dodge and a few sneak attack dice would add to the character as well as athletics expertise, cunning action, etc. etc. And how little I really cared about some of the higher level Barbarian abilities.

Despite losing 2hp a level compared to the barbarian, having access to uncanny dodge with bear totem rage seemed too cool an opportunity to miss; while technically reducing half damage by another half is less efficient than reducing full damage by half (rage + uncanny dodge vs no rage + uncanny dodge) it created a sweet DM appeal where this large goliath barbarian could be trucked into by large creatures with blows that would normally cripple most PC's and simply shrug them off like they were nothing; 52 damage in one attack seems like a big deal for most PC's and even 26 damage is something to wince at when you're a barbarian... But turning that 52 damage into a measly 13 damage is a fun concept to depict to your players and trivializes hits from large threatening monsters in a way I find hilarious.

There's no doubt that Barbarian/Rogue is a strong multi-class; auto advantage for easy sneak attacks, 1/4 damage from big hits, high mobility, advantage + expertise in athletics for easy grappling.

Because it was a one-shot I opted for 7 levels of barbarian (because not being surprised is fun) and 5 levels of Thief. Called him Atlas and had him tag along to help balance out encounters for my buddy's little three man doom squad. Never taking agency of the character myself I only provided rolls for the actions they would dictate to him (he was a dumdum). It was a blast and uncanny dodge was definitely kick ass.

But it got me thinking....What martial class doesn't want to multi-class rogue?

The Point I'm trying to make:
Martial classes in my mind have always provided a nice foil to casters by being able to shell out consistent damage without hinging on resources as heavily while also being able to have nice defensive options to help protect themselves or squishy casters. Even a paladin that burns through everything provides a strong front line tank fully equipped in armor.

However, after second attack, the DPR of many martials stagnates and while they get interesting bells and whistles as well as a nice shiny damage boost at level 11 (paladin's get free smiting, fighters get a 3rd attack, rangers get whirlwind/volley etc. etc.) it's makes leveling a lot smoother to have a damage boost that scales up much more consistently.

I don't want to diminish the "bells and whistles" of other classes; veangeance paladins get haste at level 9, rangers get...uhm...spells like...oh jeeze what do rangers get again? Lightning Arrow? Yeah that's a good one! Fighters get more battlemaster dice/options or Eldritch Strike the list goes on. And I'm sure there are lots of arguments for sweet damage/buff/utility where halting current class progressions or even for being able to multi-class into a more caster-esque martial (like the paladin/sorcerer) is great. But Rogue levels provide utility AND a linear damage progression that a lot of other martial classes seem to lack and often outscale the consistent damage potential of other martials.

GWM paladins getting Haste seems to be the only martial class that completely crap on rogue damage, and this is more by virtue of them having a broken DPR mechanic that they can use for 2 minutes of any encounter ridden day. As soon as their level 3 spell slots are exhausted (or their concentration is broken) they are forced back into somewhat equal damage territory.

Fighters are this weird exception where they -can- do more DPR at level 11 and 20 (if they always GWM/Sharpshooter) but after level 11, has to progress 9 levels without a solid and consistent DPR boost. That seems...comical to me. Oh sure you get more uses of your short rest abilities, an extra ASI or a some nice sub-class capstone. You could wait 9 levels and get more DPR than a Fighter 11/Rogue 9, but you have to always sharpshooter/GWM that last attack to compete with that sneak attack damage and play out those 9 levels without getting any consistent boost to your damage....

Let's take a look at the first 5 levels of rogue, which are chock full of so many features I find exceptionally useful...

• Level 1: Expertise and +3.5 average DPR (since you have 2 attacks it's very easy to trigger sneak attack). This makes the first level you take in rogue offer an immediate damage boost and sweet skill boosts. Not too shabby.
• Level 2: Cunning Action....frees up the action economy so much, and when you attack twice per round you no longer worry about needing to dual-wield to get a second attempt at sneak attack damage.
• Level 3: +7 average DPR instead of +3.5; sneak attack is starting to add a nice little kick to your damage. Heyy you also get a sub-class now! (Arcane Trickster ends up being a huge buff for pre-existing caster classes).
• Level 4: ASI (meh)
• Level 5: The big payoff, Uncanny Dodge and more Sneak Attack.

And so on..


Uncanny dodge seems really strong for pretty much -every- martial in the front line; sure there are times when many attacks completely overwhelm or shut down this feature but even then it's always offering free damage mitigation.

Sneak Attack also makes you a much more punishing melee foe to ignore if you're not using uncanny dodge, walking away from Rogues hurts; provoking opportunity attacks that have the potential to sneak attack means feats like sentinel or warcaster (opportunity attack booming blade NYURRRRGH) carry a significant wallop.

Expertise is the sweet sweet icing on the cake. Athletics for grapplers, stealth for archers, perception for scouts. The list goes on.

The only shortcoming appears to be the inability to use Great Weapon Master and sneak attack at the same time, which to me just frees up a feat and allows for shield usage or lets you play a nifty sharpshooting archer (if you're inclined to sharpshooter against a lower AC target do it on the first attack and if it misses just do a regular attack for your second to try and keep sneak attack damage on the table). If the target has an AC you don't really find suitable for sharpshooting then you're way ahead of the game with sneak attack dice.

Arcane Tricksters in particular offer so many amazing utility spells that having a low intelligence doesn't seem to cripple them too heavily and still provides a nice slot advancement for other spells you may have accrued from your previous martial class. Most notably getting the Shield Spell, which eventually competes with Uncanny Dodge for your reaction, is a huge defensive boost regardless. Taking 0 damage is better than taking half and with enough experience you start to know when to use one over the other (usually when you're being attacked by many foes instead of one big baddie).

Am I missing something? Or is Rogue one of the best (if not the best) options to just be a better martial than your base class....

[Boci]

Having SA limits melee martial to light finessable weapons, which is a pretty big downgrade, but if you were using one anyway, its certainly worth considering.

[TheUser]

Having SA limits melee martial to light finessable weapons, which is a pretty big downgrade, but if you were using one anyway, its certainly worth considering.

Only has to be a finesse weapon actually. (and can still use strength for hit/damage roll)

Using a 1d8 Rapier isn't much of a limitation compared to a longsword....

[SuperCracker]

In Out of the Abyss I played a VHuman Barbarian 5/Rogue X (got up to 7, I believe). I had a finesse weapon (spoilery) from the campaign that was great; and I just rolled strength with it anyway. I went sword and board with that weapon and a shield. Shield Master Feat. Bear totem.

I jumped into Rogue and went Swashbuckler because I was out in the front lines so much. The charisma abilities didn't help me much, but I didn't need them to. Expertise to athletics, rage for advantage, shield bashing as a bonus action.

It was great. It was absolutely great. I highly recommend that multiclass on the right character. I could see some great Battlemaster/Rogue builds as well.

However, I'm not sure rogue helps a Paladin, given how MAD you get.

Rogue certainly doesn't help anyone wielding a Polearm or a Great Weapon. So the utility is limited to Sword and Shield or TWF. Monk isn't helped because Monks require Monk to scale everything they do.

Like everything else, there's times it can work and times it can't.

[Boci]

Only has to be a finesse weapon actually. (and can still use strength for hit/damage roll)

Using a 1d8 Rapier isn't much of a limitation compared to a longsword....

No, but it does seem a little bad next to a greatsword, maul or glaive.

[TheUser]

However, I'm not sure rogue helps a Paladin, given how MAD you get.

Point buy Human paladin can start with 16 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con and 16 Cha (9 int and Wis)
Enough to wear fullplate and multi-class rogue with a slight hit to HP.

Monk isn't helped because Monks require Monk to scale everything they do.

Level 6 shadow monk seems to multi-class rogue -really- well....auto advantage after blinking is a good example of that.

They don't need Ki to blink and can now disengage or dash as bonus actions without using Ki which leaves it for flurries, dodging, a few niche utility spells (pass without trace + stealth expertise *snort*) and stunning strikes. Even if you run out of Ki you're still hitting way harder than any monk normally because of sneak attack.

[Douche]

Yeah, I had a chum named Greg, he played a multi-class rogue. It was pretty cool but then he started stealing from me IRL and it made me a bit niffed. I wouldn't recommend anyone multi class into rogue.

[Theodoxus]

I went 2/2 on my barbarian rogue for a short term campaign. The reckless attack advantage was nice. But the DM found ways to foil it. Fog clouds, fear effects, poisoned condition... don't get me wrong, I rocked the heck out of that combo, but it's not a cureall... and things like Fear and Poisoned mean I have to be reckless to get just a regular attack (no sneak) but still have advantage against me... less than ideal.

@OP, ever since the revised ranger was offered up, I've been a proponent for RRanger 1/Rogue 2/any martial x. It covers nearly any contingency as a base, and has a decent skill set to boot.

[qube]

Am I missing something? Or is Rogue one of the best (if not the best) options to just be a better martial than your base class....

barbarian giving rage (resist physical) and reckless attack (advantage on your attacks)
fighter gets fighting style (+2 damage on all attacks; not just 1/round), self healing, and the very much favored action surge

[TheUser]

barbarian giving rage (resist physical) and reckless attack (advantage on your attacks)
fighter gets fighting style (+2 damage on all attacks; not just 1/round), self healing, and the very much favored action surge

And here we have the person who reads the last bolded line at the end without reading the rest of the post!

[CaptainSarathai]

It really depends. Rogue is sort of the Warlock of martial classes, where Multiclassing is concerned.

In terms of damage:
Per attack, a Greatsword deals 7 damage, to the Rapier's 4.5 damage.
So, for a 2-attack class, you either deal 14 damage or you deal 9+SA. Until you get a decent number of Rogue levels, that's only +2d6, for an average damage of 16.
The issue is granularity, reliability, and investment.
For granularity, the big sword is dealing a consistent 7 per hit. Kill the first guy? Next guy takes 7. The Sneak Attack means someone takes 11.5, someone else takes 4.5. If you overkill the first guy, the second guy gets away with a scratch.
For reliability, that +2 damage is dependent on meeting conditions. Do you have Advantage? Is there a friendly within 5' of the target? You get the idea. If the answer is "no," then you've cut your damage drastically. Meanwhile, the big sword just keeps trucking, consistently laying out those hits regardless of positioning or conditions.
For investment, you're putting in levels of Rogue and slowing your ASI, and potentially foregoing it altogether. Unless you're already Str20, you can make up that same +2 damage by just putting the ASI into your attack stat, gaining not only the extra damage, but also improved accuracy along the way.

For a Fighter, the investment in Rogue to equalize damage has to go way up, because they can get 3-4 attacks, each of which is adding greater return over Sneak Attack.
Even the Barbarian with their easy advantage, benefits more from using that Advantage to land heavy blows with GWM for +20 damage over their 2 attacks.

So damage is really a wash at best. That leaves us with the other low level Rogue tricks, which is really just Dash, Disengage, and Hide as a Bonus Action.
Cunning Action is actually pretty solid, but it's not necessarily something that everyone wants.
Bonus Action Hide is useless of you're not already a Dex character, and it was really meant to be used as a "pop up, shoot, re-hide" mechanic. If you are a Dex character, then yes, Rogue - it increases your damage to compete with Str weapons.
Bonus Action Dash is situational. You already have a 30' movement, and in many dungeons and so on, that seems to be enough to get around in combat.
Bonus Action Disengage is the real winner. But then the question is what you're using it for. If you're a tank and the goal is to be big and sticky, then you don't want to move away from an enemy. Only certain builds really work well with this ability, and there's always the Mobility feat (which also helps mitigate the Dash part of Cunning Action as well)

Let's say you go hog wild. You go all-in for 5 levels of Rogue and get that sweet Uncanny Dodge. How good is that?
Well... first of all, you've gone 5 levels for 50% damage reduction - you can get that off 3 levels of Totem Barbarian. Barb also gives you some other nifty tricks, like at will Advantage, and bonus damage. Rage is limited to a number of times per day, but also works on every hit and doesn't impact your Action Economy.
Another option for the "athletically inclined" is to grab the Heavy Armor Master feat. Until you start taking 8+ damage per hit, this is functionally the same as the Barbarian's Rage, except it works all day, every day, and doesn't even require a dip.
HAM is where 5e gets interesting. People think, "oh, it's only 3 damage, it won't scale well." In reality though, if you flick through the MM, the trend is for monsters to gain more attacks, rather than stacking more damage onto a single attack. Add to this the fact that some DMs prefer to use several small monsters rather than a large one, and you have a landscape where you are far more likely to be nickel-and-dimed for damage rather than get one big swat from a dragon.

This isn't to say that the Rogue is bad. Really, I feel that most Dex based characters might benefit from at least a dip in Rogue. I don't feel that it's as ubiquitously advantageous as a dip in Fighter, but it's up there.
Really though, the classes that I feel benefit the most from a Rogue dip, are Casters like the Wizard and Sorcerer, and non-Blade Warlocks. Cunning Action gives them a great way to be clear of damage with minimal investment, and Sneak Attack on a single-attack class lets them actually do something in melee if they choose to stick around. Plus, if they choose to go far enough, Uncanny Dodge is really the only non-spell option for universal damage reduction, on a caster. Their position away from the main battle also makes them more likely to take those individual, big hits rather than getting mauled by a knee-deep wave of Goblins. Positioning away from the fight also gives casters less use for their Reaction, making the biggest cost of Uncanny Dodge a fairly minor concern. Unfortunately, even with Arcane Trickster, this dip will cost them their 9th level spells, and represents the loss of 4-5 levels of caster.

[GlenSmash!]

• Level 1: Expertise and +3.5 average DPR (since you have 2 attacks it's very easy to trigger sneak attack). This makes the first level you take in rogue offer an immediate damage boost and sweet skill boosts. Not too shabby.
• Level 2: Cunning Action....frees up the action economy so much, and when you attack twice per round you no longer worry about needing to dual-wield to get a second attempt at sneak attack damage.
• Level 3: +7 average DPR instead of +3.5; sneak attack is starting to add a nice little kick to your damage. Heyy you also get a sub-class now! (Arcane Trickster ends up being a huge buff for pre-existing caster classes).
• Level 4: ASI (meh)
• Level 5: The big payoff, Uncanny Dodge and more Sneak Attack.

And so on..


Uncanny dodge seems really strong for pretty much -every- martial in the front line; sure there are times when many attacks completely overwhelm or shut down this feature but even then it's always offering free damage mitigation.

Sneak Attack also makes you a much more punishing melee foe to ignore if you're not using uncanny dodge, walking away from Rogues hurts; provoking opportunity attacks that have the potential to sneak attack means feats like sentinel or warcaster (opportunity attack booming blade NYURRRRGH) carry a significant wallop.

Expertise is the sweet sweet icing on the cake. Athletics for grapplers, stealth for archers, perception for scouts. The list goes on.

I see the appeal, though for me expertise is less the icing on he cake, and more the bread and butter. My barbarian could use the sneak attack damage if he used a rapier, and while uncanny dodge is wonderful he already has great damage mitigation, but expertise in athletics that's the real draw.

This is why I like the UA Skill Feats. It makes that rogue dip slightly less desirable for every class.

[Zene]

Rogue/barbarian is insanely good. Great dpr, great (maybe even the best) tank, great grappler.

Rogue/fighter? Can be good. So can straight fighter or straight rogue. Yeah, fighters plateau a little in dmg after 11, but at 17 they get a big jump with second action surge --which now means they're making 12 attacks (plus maybe 2 bonus attacks) in the first two rounds. With SS/GWM, no other class comes close. At 20 that jumps to 16/18 attacks in the first two rounds. (And meanwhile they're getting subclass boosts to dpr as well --EKs get haste at 12, battlemasters get steady increases via maneuver dice upgrades, and champs get the much-maligned --but actually pretty good at high levels-- improved crit range at 18.)

Rogue/monk? Meh.

Rogue/pal? Too much of a sacrifice.

Rogue/ranger? Can be good, I guess.

Adding rogue levels just to boost dpr? Usually a bad idea, unless you are a) ranged, not a fighter, not working toward picking up haste or volley or swift quiver for some reason, and not delaying an ASI by doing so; or b) melee, not a fighter, not maxing out damage via GWM, not working toward haste, and not significantly delaying an ASI by doing so.

[qube]

And here we have the person who reads the last bolded line at the end without reading the rest of the post!

I didn't. If you read the rest, you find this basic comparison

However, after second attack, the DPR of many martials stagnates and while they get interesting bells and whistles as well as a nice shiny damage boost at level 11 (paladin's get free smiting, fighters get a 3rd attack, rangers get whirlwind/volley etc. etc.) it's makes leveling a lot smoother to have a damage boost that scales up much more consistently.

Yet

Let's take a look at the first 5 levels of rogue, which are chock full of so many features I find exceptionally useful...

If you only looks at the rogue class for dipping up to 5 levels into, only to ask the bolded question "is Rogue one of the best (if not the best) options to just be a better martial than your base class....". Is comparing apples with orangjes - as many martial classes are front loaded.

[Waar]

Am I missing something? Or is Rogue one of the best (if not the best) options to just be a better martial than your base class....

Rogue is a good multiclass in some cases, but i can only think of 2 classes that aren't interested in multiclassing to fighter for 1-3 levels (and one of those 2 classes is the fighter)

And sure, Rogue works great with a shieldmaster or archer, but if you want to use a two-handed weapon you gain very litte.

In addition putting 5 levels into rogue means missing out on a lot of things in your original class, if you go original 6/ rogue 5, you for instance miss out on 1 ability score increase and an extra attack from fighter. Brutal critical, extra rage damage and relentless rage if you went barbarian, 3 third level spells, and improved divine smite for paladin, and so on.

[TheUser]

I didn't. If you read the rest, you find this basic comparison

However, after second attack, the DPR of many martials stagnates and while they get interesting bells and whistles as well as a nice shiny damage boost at level 11 (paladin's get free smiting, fighters get a 3rd attack, rangers get whirlwind/volley etc. etc.) it's makes leveling a lot smoother to have a damage boost that scales up much more consistently.

Yet

Let's take a look at the first 5 levels of rogue, which are chock full of so many features I find exceptionally useful...

If you only looks at the rogue class for dipping up to 5 levels into, only to ask the bolded question "is Rogue one of the best (if not the best) options to just be a better martial than your base class....". Is comparing apples with orangjes - as many martial classes are front loaded.

I think you've singled out one of the weakest of the low level multi-class possibilities for sure. However, if we shift the goal posts a bit and try and look at it through the level 11 lens we used for the fighter the numbers start to swing back into the rogue's favor. I think that more than anything it's a testament to how well designed the Paladin is; while other classes seem to lose their edge Paladin's scale very well into the mid-game.

After getting free auto-smites and level 3 spells you can switch into rogue levels and add to your consistent DPR once more. While level 4 spells might seem tempting, (Aura of life!) you'd be getting access to the shield spell 1 level later than level 4 spells and that's going to make up for some of that difference (Dimension door is great but your caster allies can take someone with them and you don't really have the slot power to use it with any level of regularity).

Lastly, the Paladin 6/Rogue 5 would have uncanny dodge as well as the sneak attack damage boost, which is greater than the +2d8 per round from the level 11 paladin feature and if you're an oath of the ancients paladin you're waiting for 2 more levels to get stoneskin (which can be broken by concentration). And while uncanny dodge may not be used on 100% of incoming attacks it will definitely mitigate it's fair share of damage per round and it does so without consuming resources. Additionally, the paladin rogue has had the shield spell for 2 levels now, another sweet sweet defensive boon. If you were an ancients paladin it also means you don't have haste (you could get it from a caster but now they can't concentrate on something else :S).

A paladin, much like a fighter, may just be better off multi-classing to rogue after level 11.

[strangebloke]

Rogue can be good for many classes.

Rogue is not good for every build.

Sword and board? Sure.

Archer? Sure.

Great weapon fighter? Nope.

Two weapon fighting? Assuming you already have second attack, nope.

Monks? They already have scaling damage.

Moreover, this whole analysis forgets that all martials are front loaded. The only reason the rogue looks a little prettier than others of because extra attack doesn't stack.

[Waazraath]

Especially the combination of sneak attack and GWM that doesn't work, makes it a whole lot less interesting for a lot builds. A barbarian that can have advantage at will, will be better of with a great weapon, doing 2d6 or 1d12 + 10 bonus damage on every attack, compared with 1d8 + (sneak attack max 1 time/turn); especially if the bbn can get a bonus action attack, as with berserker or Polearm Master. Berserker even gets another extra reaction attack at level 14, so it'll totally outdamage the bbn/rogue.

Of course, barbarian damage scales slowly (rage, more rages) anyway, and they get their cool new ability at 14, not 11 like most classes mentioned in the OP. More important: rage is limited /long rest, so I really like having more than the 2/day I get at the early levels.

For monk, Especially shadow monk benefits a lot of 3 levels assassin, its abilities make it possible to really set up that level 3 feature, so that it actually does something. For paladin, I can't imagine multiclassing into rogue; I love dex pally's, but smite / spells are just too damn good. If you multiclass out of the paladin, a full caster is just so much better (but its good enough to stay pally op to 20, imho).

[Finieous]

Because it was a one-shot I opted for 7 levels of barbarian (because not being surprised is fun) and 5 levels of Thief.

Okay, so you gave up:

Great weapons
10 hp
1 ASI
1 Rage/rest
+1 Rage damage
Brutal Critical
Spirit Walker
Relentless Rage

It's fine, but I don't think it's a no-brainer depending on the campaign. If your barbarian is already S&B, it's an easier choice. You really need to find some extra DPR from somewhere, and rogue is a good option. Especially if UA is available, I'd still consider fighter (scout). You get a fighting style, second wind, action surge, extra skills, and short-rest superiority dice that synergize really well, especially superiority dice on Athletics checks and the Combat Inspiration/Uncanny Dodge combo (add superiority die to AC; if attack still hits, take half damage). Even then, I really want Rage Damage +3 and might be inclined toward Barb 9/Ftr 3.

If you're not already S&B, I don't think rogue is a great tradeoff for a barbarian. If I'm TWFing for some reason, then I think I want to be mostly rogue for offense, with a barbarian dip for a rest-limited defensive surge. Other than that, I'm using great weapons because not doing so with a barbarian is nuts, and then rogue doesn't have a lot to offer.

[TheUser]

Okay, so you gave up:

Great weapons
10 hp
1 ASI
1 Rage/rest
+1 Rage damage
Brutal Critical
Spirit Walker
Relentless Rage

It's fine, but I don't think it's a no-brainer depending on the campaign. If your barbarian is already S&B, it's an easier choice. You really need to find some extra DPR from somewhere, and rogue is a good option. Especially if UA is available, I'd still consider fighter (scout). You get a fighting style, second wind, action surge, extra skills, and short-rest superiority dice that synergize really well, especially superiority dice on Athletics checks and the Combat Inspiration/Uncanny Dodge combo (add superiority die to AC; if attack still hits, take half damage). Even then, I really want Rage Damage +3 and might be inclined toward Barb 9/Ftr 3.

If you're not already S&B, I don't think rogue is a great tradeoff for a barbarian. If I'm TWFing for some reason, then I think I want to be mostly rogue for offense, with a barbarian dip for a rest-limited defensive surge. Other than that, I'm using great weapons because not doing so with a barbarian is nuts, and then rogue doesn't have a lot to offer.

And yet by not using 2 handed weapons I can
1) not spend an ASI on GWM
2) have 2 more AC
-OR-
3) grapple foes and use them as cover whilst still being able to attack (you can certainly grapple while you have a 2 hander drawn, just not attack while you grapple them)

Which I've learned is really important as a str focused character. Being able to control the movement of enemies and use them as cover is often overlooked.

It won't outdamage a 2-hander barb while they are power attacking, but it's very competitive and actually outdamages them vs high AC foes. Rogue/barb s&b will have much better AC and rely less on being Reckless too.

[Specter]

It is indeed a great multiclass, but your nicer features can be hindered by many things:

1) Expertise: Unless you're on a grappling/Shield Master build, expertising Athletics is far from mandatory.
2) Sneak Attack: it won't trigger with heavy weapons, so most barbarians and many fighters/paladins won't use it.
3) Cunning Action: dash and disengage are always solid, but hide for martials is bad most of the time. You usually want to be targeted by attacks, and heavy armor makes your hiding efforts moot.

Basically, you want to multiclass Rogue if:
- your DPR won't escalate much in the next levels (a la Ranger);
- you're not wearing heavy armor;
- you're not using great weapons;
- you are interested in hiding in combat.

[TheUser]

1) Expertise: Unless you're on a grappling/Shield Master build, expertising Athletics is far from mandatory.
2) Sneak Attack: it won't trigger with heavy weapons, so most barbarians and many fighters/paladins won't use it.
3) Cunning Action: dash and disengage are always solid, but hide for martials is bad most of the time. You usually want to be targeted by attacks, and heavy armor makes your hiding efforts moot.

Basically, you want to multiclass Rogue if:
- your DPR won't escalate much in the next levels (a la Ranger);
- you're not wearing heavy armor;
- you're not using great weapons;
- you are interested in hiding in combat.

Few flaws here.
1) Expertise in Athletics is the only way to get a boost besides having advantage and it comes from 1 source (outside of UA feats); multi-classing. This means if you want to be a master grappler you'll be needing expertise to combine with some form of advantage.



2) You can actually alternate very easily between rapier and great weapon attacks on the same turn:

Start with your rapier drawn and holding your two-hander in the other hand slung over your shoulder.

Attack with the rapier, if it hits and you SA then stow it, attack with two-hander.

Next turn attack with two hander, draw rapier and sneak attack with second attack.

Repeat ad nauseam.

3) Bonus action hiding can be used to gain advantage at the beginning of a turn then snrak attack to reveal yourself and still draw aggro.

And if you hit level 11 on your rogue you can wear heavy armor and always get 10 on stealth rolls

[Specter]

Few flaws here.
1) Expertise in Athletics is the only way to get a boost besides having advantage and it comes from 1 source (outside of UA feats); multi-classing. This means if you want to be a master grappler you'll be needing expertise to combine with some form of advantage.

2) You can actually alternate very easily between rapier and great weapon attacks on the same turn:

Start with your rapier drawn and holding your two-hander in the other hand slung over your shoulder.

Attack with the rapier, if it hits and you SA then stow it, attack with two-hander.

Next turn attack with two hander, draw rapier and sneak attack with second attack.

Repeat ad nauseam.

3) Bonus action hiding can be used to gain advantage at the beginning of a turn then snrak attack to reveal yourself and still draw aggro.

And if you hit level 11 on your rogue you can wear heavy armor and always get 10 on stealth rolls

1) See the 'unless' in my previous post.
2) Assuming you have both weapons drawn on the start of combat (no surprise), you'd only be doing that on the first turn; on the second, you'd have to drop the rapier for the great weapon attack, and after that it's not reliable anymore. Not to mention it's the lamest thing flavor-wise.
3) I'm not hanging around for 11 levels in a martial multiclass, and even if I could/did, that would still involve bad stealth for most of your career.

[Finieous]

2) Assuming you have both weapons drawn on the start of combat (no surprise), you'd only be doing that on the first turn; on the second, you'd have to drop the rapier for the great weapon attack, and after that it's not reliable anymore.

Turn 1: Attack with rapier, object interaction to sheath, attack with greatsword
Turn 2: Attack with greatsword, object interaction to draw rapier, attack with rapier
Turn 3: Attack with rapier, object interaction to sheath, attack with greatsword
[...]

Not to mention it's the lamest thing flavor-wise.

Yeah.

Edit: In fairness, I should add that I think it's pretty nifty and maintains some verisimilitude if you replace the rapier with a dagger.

[djreynolds]

2 levels of rogue cost a 13 in dex, and comes with huge perks

1. A free skill.

2. Expertise in 2 skills

3. Cunning action is awesome for any class... disengage, dash, or hide as a bonus action.

The ability to crack a mook with GWM and then use that oft used BA to disengage is too good.

Disengage is cheaper than misty step

[Theodoxus]

A paladin, much like a fighter, may just be better off multi-classing to rogue after level 11.

One of my favorite characters, that sadly didn't see 20th level, was a Swashbuckler 9/ OotA Paladin 11 (only got Swash 9/Paladin 2)....

The synergy is insane, grabbing Alert netted me a +15 Initiative (rolled stats, Starting 20 in Dex and 18 in Chr as a lightfoot halfling).

He was THE FACE; could talk anything that understood the words coming out of his mouth, to do anything he wanted.

[Specter]

Turn 1: Attack with rapier, object interaction to sheath, attack with greatsword
Turn 2: Attack with greatsword, object interaction to draw rapier, attack with rapier
Turn 3: Attack with rapier, object interaction to sheath, attack with greatsword
[...]

If you don't attack with the rapier first, you don't have the luxury of trying it again if your sneak attack fails.

[Finieous]

If you don't attack with the rapier first, you don't have the luxury of trying it again if your sneak attack fails.

Yes, you have to settle for a GWM attack and one sneak attack attempt.

[GlenSmash!]

In fairness, I should add that I think it's pretty nifty and maintains some verisimilitude if you replace the rapier with a dagger.

That... sounds pretty awesome. It reminds me of how Aragorn fought the hordes Uruk-Hai at the end of the Fellowship of the Ring film.

[agnos]

It is indeed a great multiclass, but your nicer features can be hindered by many things:

1) Expertise: Unless you're on a grappling/Shield Master build, expertising Athletics is far from mandatory.
2) Sneak Attack: it won't trigger with heavy weapons, so most barbarians and many fighters/paladins won't use it.
3) Cunning Action: dash and disengage are always solid, but hide for martials is bad most of the time. You usually want to be targeted by attacks, and heavy armor makes your hiding efforts moot.

Basically, you want to multiclass Rogue if:
- your DPR won't escalate with levels;
- you're wearing non-mithril, non-heavy armor;
- you're using either sword & board style or ranged weapon fighting;
- you are interested in hiding in combat;
- you don't have consistent relevant reaction options for which Uncanny Dodge could help;
- you don't need/want other class abilities
- you don't need feats/ASI bumps by completing more levels in your primary class

I've added a few things/caveats to this list. But for the most part I think you nailed it. Like Rogue can be a nice addition to a few different builds, but I don't think Paladins often benefit from the dip mainly because their smites, spells and spellcasting are far better than any Rogue 3 or Rogue 5 addition. Plus, the paladin class spikes in power pretty dramatically with each level from 5 to 13; 6 is divine grace, 7 is archetype feature, 8 is feat, 9 is 3rd level spells, 10 is class feature, 11 is +1d8 to attacks, 12 is feat, 13 is 4th level spells. Fighter really wants to hit 11 for 3 attacks; even after that it's more synergistic effects from other multiclass options. Barbarian is a great pairing for champion; Paladin is a great pair for EK; BM can do well with numerous dips, but multiclassing before 11 is pretty substandard as you give up D10 superiority dice and 3rd attack. Barbarian loses Relentless Rage which is pretty major IMO; even losing out on Feral Instinct (advantage on init) and Brutal Critical (at 9 and 13) is a non-insignificant DPS loss.

There definitely are builds where a Rogue dip is advantageous; but if you aren't focusing on grappling and you aren't a Ranger who's duel-wielding (sub-optimal) or ranged combat (not a tank), then I think there's more reasons to avoid a Rogue dip than not. Once you hit 11 or 12, I think in general you can reasonably fit in other multiclass builds better. Most fighters and paladins can gain a huge amount by dropping down to medium armor and using a Barb MC for what's basically resistance to everything plus "free" advantage on attacks. Rangers can gain a major advantage by dipping Paladin (for smites if melee) and/or Fighter (for action surge). Barbarians can gain a nice benefit from dipping into Champion 3 for "keen" attacks, fighting style, and action surge. But for the most part a 6 Fighter/Barb/Pally build with Rogue 5 is often just worse than 11 Fighter/Barb/Pally; in cases where you want the level of Rogue for Expertise, I'm pretty sure it's better to leave it at Rogue 1 until you finish 11-13 levels in your main class. Rangers who are tanks are almost an exception; but they're basically best as heavy MC mutt builds with mostly balanced stats.