Questionable Content 11: It's Like Seeing a Unicorn

[Max_Killjoy]

They're not using "they" as a third person plural. They're using it as a third person singular. Which has been an accepted form of "they" for, oh, several centuries now.

It still feels stumble-y trying to use it that way, which is all I was saying in that bit.

[Fawkes]

You're certainly not under any obligation to use a fictional character's preferred pronouns, but not doing so can easily be seen as disrespectful to the real people who would use those pronouns. (Or to any people who routinely have to deal with people not respecting their chosen pronouns.)

[Haven]

I would agree with 'none'. If Tilly could provide an actual reason she wants to be referred to as third person plural, like that she's a hive mind or a covey of demons, then I'd go along. But just as an affectation or whim? Nope.

See, this is going past not liking a character, and into being crappy to actual people reading this thread. I, myself, am not a demon or anything, I'm just a person who isn't a man or a woman. It's probably the same for Tilly, but they haven't discussed it, because no one needs to "provide an actual reason" for their pronouns.

"Am I under an obligation to respect a fictional character's pronouns" is sort of coming at the problem from the wrong angle. It's true that, for example, Marten can't get offended if you call him "her" because Marten does not exist, but it's likely to be pretty confusing for the other people in the conversation. It's just making a factual error about the text you're discussing, like if you called Roy a wizard or something.

[rooster707]

It still feels stumble-y trying to use it that way, which is all I was saying in that bit.

It does feel a bit awkward, but not nearly as much as “xe” and “ze” and all that nonsense.

[Dukkai]

It does feel a bit awkward, but not nearly as much as “xe” and “ze” and all that nonsense.

Xe and ze?

However, I agree that, while Taffy may be annoying, she seems like a good person and I doubt she will be spying on Hanners' dad. Even if she is pressed into it, I think she will try and avoid giving any useful info.

[Vinyadan]

Uhm, there are some uncomfortable things with this story, and generally the OCD - Hanners - HanMom triangle. HanMom has been generally presented as bad, or, at least, as not being able to understand Hanners' problems with OCD, see her "Hannelore only needs someone to be stern with her" remark.
And yet, every single time she appeared in the comic, she has pushed Hanners to break the OCD circle and do things that would normally have been impossible for her. Like touching a toilet seat, pushing her, hugging people (although I am fairly certain that she hugged Marten once; or maybe that was a different character from another comic).
So, Hanners has been trying to put herself out of her comfort zone for years by living like an "average" (money & health PsOV) person. But her mom gets superfast results by putting her in huge discomfort and ignoring her disease.
I don't know, maybe it's how life works.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Uhm, there are some uncomfortable things with this story, and generally the OCD - Hanners - HanMom triangle. HanMom has been generally presented as bad, or, at least, as not being able to understand Hanners' problems with OCD, see her "Hannelore only needs someone to be stern with her" remark.
And yet, every single time she appeared in the comic, she has pushed Hanners to break the OCD circle and do things that would normally have been impossible for her. Like touching a toilet seat, pushing her, hugging people (although I am fairly certain that she hugged Marten once; or maybe that was a different character from another comic).
So, Hanners has been trying to put herself out of her comfort zone for years by living like an "average" (money & health PsOV) person. But her mom gets superfast results by putting her in huge discomfort and ignoring her disease.
I don't know, maybe it's how life works.

As someone with severe OCD, being pushed out of my comfort zone due to a family member literally being abusive does not make that family member good.

[Wraith]

So, Hanners has been trying to put herself out of her comfort zone for years by living like an "average" (money & health PsOV) person. But her mom gets superfast results by putting her in huge discomfort and ignoring her disease.

Hannelore was forced into a confrontation with her mother, where she was forced to stand up for herself and her friend.... and then promptly went outside and broke down into tears. Is that a good result..? I disagree. Hannelore usually tries to step out of her comfort zone accompanied by powerful medication and near-constant professional therapy, but to be forced into a confrontation like that can be traumatising.

....I need to think of another word for "forced", but I'm not braining well today. Whatever.

Trying to "bully" someone out of OCD is like telling jokes to someone who has been diagnosed with depression - they might laugh, but it's not going to cure them. That's trivialising the depth of the problem and failing to address the root cause; it's "comic book" medicine, in the same way that the 'obvious' cure for a character with head injury-related memory loss is another blow to the head. In real life, punching the head of someone with confirmed brain damage is more likely to kill them; in the same way, forcing someone with such crippling OCD is more likely to lead to a long term regression in behaviour, not an improvement.

Disclaimer: Completely not a Doctor in any way, shape or form, information is anecdotal backed up with a little bit of layman reading, any errors should be addressed to my editor.

[Ibrinar]

Yeah a tad weird how that apparently resulted in a willingness to hug people.

Xe and ze?

Some people have been trying to just create new gender neutral pronouns (which I would like for me language btw, would be useful for a story I am working on), but as far as I can tell that hasn't been very successful outside some groups. Trying to deliberately cause a language change (well a language change like this adding useful nouns is easier I think) has the issue that for it to spread people have to use it but if people aren't used to something it sounds weird to them and they don't tend to use it; kind of a catch 22. (To be honest though I think xe and ze aren't just awkward because they are unfamiliar but they don't sound like they organically fit in the language.)

[eee]

Ah, that's sweet.

They're not using "they" as a third person plural. They're using it as a third person singular. Which has been an accepted form of "they" for, oh, several centuries now.

I don't believe she specified that. Which is one of the problems with using a pronoun that can be used for both, and which is not conventional. It is confusing.

See, this is going past not liking a character, and into being crappy to actual people reading this thread. I, myself, am not a demon or anything, I'm just a person who isn't a man or a woman. It's probably the same for Tilly, but they haven't discussed it, because no one needs to "provide an actual reason" for their pronouns.

"Am I under an obligation to respect a fictional character's pronouns" is sort of coming at the problem from the wrong angle. It's true that, for example, Marten can't get offended if you call him "her" because Marten does not exist, but it's likely to be pretty confusing for the other people in the conversation. It's just making a factual error about the text you're discussing, like if you called Roy a wizard or something.

Your opinion is noted, thank you.

[Gwynfrid]

Trying to "bully" someone out of OCD is like telling jokes to someone who has been diagnosed with depression - they might laugh, but it's not going to cure them. That's trivialising the depth of the problem and failing to address the root cause; it's "comic book" medicine, in the same way that the 'obvious' cure for a character with head injury-related memory loss is another blow to the head. In real life, punching the head of someone with confirmed brain damage is more likely to kill them; in the same way, forcing someone with such crippling OCD is more likely to lead to a long term regression in behaviour, not an improvement.

I would also note that Hannelore's mom hasn't been trying to push her out of her comfort zone or anything like that. She's been trying to push her into taking over her company in the future, and exploiting her as a pretext for Tilly's job position in order to facilitate some business deal with Tilly's father.

[Dukkai]

Some people have been trying to just create new gender neutral pronouns (which I would like for me language btw, would be useful for a story I am working on), but as far as I can tell that hasn't been very successful outside some groups. Trying to deliberately cause a language change (well a language change like this adding useful nouns is easier I think) has the issue that for it to spread people have to use it but if people aren't used to something it sounds weird to them and they don't tend to use it; kind of a catch 22. (To be honest though I think xe and ze aren't just awkward because they are unfamiliar but they don't sound like they organically fit in the language.)

Well, you can simply see how many people picked up on Esperanto :D

My friend was studying languages and from what he told me, word/language creation is similar to paving paths. You can do it and then hope the people will use it as intended (with a few shortcuts here and there) or you can let people create their own paths and then pave them later after the natural movement pattern through that area is established.

[Thufir]

I don't believe she specified that. Which is one of the problems with using a pronoun that can be used for both, and which is not conventional. It is confusing.

It's not confusing in the slightest. For one thing, to all appearances, they are a singular person and thus the singular can be assumed. For another, even if you consider the plural to be possible in this instance, it doesn't matter because you're still just using the pronoun they asked you to use.
I mean, sure, as observed, you are not under any obligation to use the correct pronouns. In most cases you're not under any obligation to be polite and courteous to other people, or to respect their wishes and feelings. That doesn't mean you shouldn't.

[eee]

It's not confusing in the slightest. For one thing, to all appearances, they are a singular person and thus the singular can be assumed. For another, even if you consider the plural to be possible in this instance, it doesn't matter because you're still just using the pronoun they asked you to use.
I mean, sure, as observed, you are not under any obligation to use the correct pronouns. In most cases you're not under any obligation to be polite and courteous to other people, or to respect their wishes and feelings. That doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Your opinion is noted, thank you.

[Cizak]

I would agree with 'none'. If Tilly could provide an actual reason she wants to be referred to as third person plural, like that she's a hive mind or a covey of demons, then I'd go along. But just as an affectation or whim? Nope.

They gave their reason for their pronouns here: It's what they use. And sure, you're not under any "obligation" to honor that, at least no more than you are obligated to refer to someone by their correct name or acknowledge that they are standing where they are if they point out you are stepping on their foot.

[Douglas]

The Mod Radiant: Choice of personal pronouns is a sensitive real world gender identity issue. If you want to ask questions about it, you can do so over here. If you want to argue about it, don't.

Tread very carefully on this. Gender identity issues is one of the subjects that can get Hate Speech instant ban Infractions on these forums.

[Dukkai]

They gave their reason for their pronouns here: It's what they use. And sure, you're not under any "obligation" to honor that, at least no more than you are obligated to refer to someone by their correct name or acknowledge that they are standing where they are if they point out you are stepping on their foot.

I'm not sure it goes as far as that, regarding that being the same as referring to someone with their correct name. If someone is called Jack but wants you to call him Steve, technically by calling him Jack you are referring to that person with their correct name. The same should work with pronouns. You can call them with the pronouns they choose, but in the end you are not wrong by calling them he/she (as at the moment, AFAIK, there are no other officially acknowledged sexes). While that may be going against someone's preferences, you are not doing anything wrong nor should you be treated like you are. That is just my 2 cents on this subject.

That aside, the last comic made me sad.. :( That could seem like we are losing Hanners for a while :(

[Yana]

I'm going to choose to believe that this means another time skip. Otherwise it means that we just lost one of the best characters for awhile.

[Wraith]

I'm quietly hoping for a Hannelore/Winslow road-trip sequence. Both characters have a lot of issues and themes that could be explored through travel and interaction with new situations, and I will be disappointed if instead we just get Hannelore reappearing in 6 months with a tan and a new personality.

[Dukkai]

I'm going to choose to believe that this means another time skip. Otherwise it means that we just lost one of the best characters for awhile.

I'm hoping more in the lines of something like this:

I'm quietly hoping for a Hannelore/Winslow road-trip sequence. Both characters have a lot of issues and themes that could be explored through travel and interaction with new situations, and I will be disappointed if instead we just get Hannelore reappearing in 6 months with a tan and a new personality.

Because that sounds like something that could be a lot of fun :)

[Maryring]

Personally I don't care about pronouns at all. You can call me whatever. He/She/Xe... even It for that matter and I won't really care. I'll still make a personal effort to refer to someone by the pronoun that they prefer because even though I don't see the big deal of their pronoun, I don't need to know or understand this preference to respect it. And that respect is to me just simple courtesy.

With regards to the difference between a character and a person... I can understand that a fictional character technically do not need respect, but respecting the pronoun of even a fictional character does signal to other, very much real, people that you'll make an effort to respect their pronoun too. AFAIC that's only a good thing.

[Max_Killjoy]

What's next, Martin decides to move back to CA?

[Dukkai]

What's next, Martin decides to move back to CA?

Aye, and Faye to Savannah.. To make more room for the interesting characters introduced lately (over the last year or 2) :D

[Hackman]

There's pictures of four people in the top row, but I don't recognize the middle two. I guess the left one is Tai, the right one might be Penelope(?).

[Cizak]

That is just my 2 cents on this subject.

Complete disagreement on every single point. If you want to repost this in the thread linked by Douglas, I could respond in detail.

--

I've always liked chat log stories. They're sort of a genre on their own. Has Jeph done anything similar with QC in the past?

[Dukkai]

Complete disagreement on every single point. If you want to repost this in the thread linked by Douglas, I could respond in detail.

Nah, I have looked over that thread a bit (last 2 pages) and I think I might not have a big enough umbrella for the ****storm that would be coming my way if I posted anything similar to what I have posted here. :)
also, just a bonus to add, I think of myself as pretty liberal and open minded and if what I have posted here is considered as hateful or disrespectful towards someone's preferences, then I guess that it goes both ways in regards to respecting other people's opinions and preferences.

I've always liked chat log stories. They're sort of a genre on their own. Has Jeph done anything similar with QC in the past?

Not sure (I have a vague memory of seeing something like that), but I like it a lot. Especially since you can see that he took the time to actually personalize the style in which each character would write such messages.

[Windscion]

There's pictures of four people in the top row, but I don't recognize the middle two. I guess the left one is Tai, the right one might be Penelope(?).

Hanners, Tai, Claire, Dora (left-to-right)

Can someone explain "jack is a bitch" to me?
From Urban Dictionary:
Jack Bitch. A road rage term used when you initially think it's a guy that cut you off, but realize it was a woman.
which ... doesn't really help that much. Maybeso this is an aside because Faye is texting while driving? But we very rarely see the cast driving, not that this proves squat.

[Max_Killjoy]

So anyway, back to the comic instead of talking about the thing we can't talk about or talking about not talking about the thing we can't talk about...

When Alice Grove ended, Jeph said that he has another side-project comic in the works.

It occurred to be during the drive in to work this morning that there's a possibility that the Hanners & Winslow road trip will be that comic, and that's she's not going to disappear, but just won't be in QC for a while.

I hope so, because Hanners might well be my favorite QC character.

[Cizak]

Last addition from me since this is spiraling out into general off-topicness: No, arguing against dehumanizing hate and/or disrespect that causes real, active harm to large groups of people is not equivalent to said hate and/or disrespect. None of what has been discussed here is "preferences". I'm in the LGBTQIA+ discussion thread for any further additions on this.

[Gwynfrid]

Just in case someone didn't read this:

The Mod Radiant: Choice of personal pronouns is a sensitive real world gender identity issue. If you want to ask questions about it, you can do so over here. If you want to argue about it, don't.

Tread very carefully on this. Gender identity issues is one of the subjects that can get Hate Speech instant ban Infractions on these forums.