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Thread: Why core only?
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2017-07-28, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
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Re: Why core only?
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-28, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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2017-07-28, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Why core only?
I think there's certainly virtue to the idea of a game that operates on a curated set of allowed options. I'm not convinced that doing that on the level of books is an especially good idea, and I'm certainly not convinced that "only Tome of Battle classes" is the best path.
That said, I don't think Player's Handbook II is a super good choice. The power spread there is super wide. A Beguiler can plausibly adventure in a party with a Wizard, a Cleric, and a Sorcerer as companions without anyone feeling left out. The other classes ... can't. The only class that is really on the level of the ToB classes is the Duskblade. Also, the book has a big pile of spells that no one is going to be able to use if the only options are ToB + PHBII.
Of course, this sort of curated game experience often ends up veering towards homebrew rather quickly ("If only there was an Abjuration specialist caster! If only there was a Bard-level Artificer variant! Hey wait a minute..."), and in any case Core is a rather bad example of the notion.
The two spells combo really well; bind something with Wish and get it to emulate Simulacrum.
I'd expect most parties at those levels to be packing Hero's Feast, acid sounds like a good bet, though.Last edited by Cosi; 2017-07-28 at 06:41 PM.
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2017-07-28, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
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- Virgo Supercluster
Re: Why core only?
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-28, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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Re: Why core only?
Fair enough, I just remembered the Player's Handbook II having more classes than the ToB.
True, I'm just of the opinion that minions that obey me absolutely are better than those who don't.
Some of the posters were talking about dumping Wizards in lava pits.
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2017-07-28, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Why core only?
Why are you allowing Soulborn (too crap), Soulknife (too crap), Psion (too good), and Wilder (maybe too good), but not Binder, Rogue, and Warlock? There are very few books which have all their classes on a tight power curve, and fewer still where that power curve overlaps with other books.
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2017-07-28, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
Re: Why core only?
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-28, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Why core only?
That's my point. I'm not saying there's no value in a curated experience, I'm saying that carving things out at the level of the book isn't terribly effective at creating a good curated experience.
As for the Psion, I was under the impression that they weren't super powerful when limited to XPH material. The Soulborn and Soulknife were unfortunate tag alongs.
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2017-07-29, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Why core only?
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2017-07-29, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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- The Old West
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2017-07-29, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
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- Virgo Supercluster
Re: Why core only?
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-29, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
Re: Why core only?
I gotta agree with others here.
The additional books are not for balance reasons (wtf, seriously, wtf, how can you possibly come to this conclusion?). They are there to increase customization options for both the DM and the player, so that every campaign and character are unique and incredibly fun.
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2017-07-29, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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- The Old West
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2017-07-31, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: Why core only?
The reason I said just ToB and MIC is because I like the fact that MIC has lots of low cost magic items that are neat, but generally not as overall "strong" as the +2/4/6 stat items that typically dominate most slots and/or budgets. Plus, there are a lot of magic items in there that are swift/move action activated, while nearly all of the DMG items are either continuous or standard action activated. With boosts, counters, swapping stances and swift activated magic items, not to mention recharge mechanics, there is a real action economy to play around with that is lacking in core that also happens to draw a lot of the focus away from full attacking without completely eliminating it.
You don't have a true high fantasy game with Elminster buying you drinks at the local pub, but you do end up with a more dynamic miniature combat game with more of a mundane + extraordinary augments feel kinda more along the lines of Tolkein. Gandalf himself didn't ever use much in the way of magic. He was mostly just a badass with a magic sword and a fancy pair of pajamas.
Some day, maybe I'll run that game. Probably not.
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2017-07-31, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
Re: Why core only?
If I wanted a dynamic tactical combat experience and nothing else, why would I not just play DotA/LoL/TF2/Overwatch? The advantage of playing tabletop games is that you can interact with the world, instead of just set-piece combats. If you give that up for a "dynamic miniature combat game", why not go for the real thing?
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2017-07-31, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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- The Old West
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2017-07-31, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Why core only?
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2017-07-31, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Why core only?
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2017-07-31, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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- The Old West
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2017-07-31, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
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- Virgo Supercluster
Re: Why core only?
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-31, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Why core only?
Even putting aside fantasy thinly disguised as science fiction (Star Trek, Babylon 5) where it's pretty easy to rack up these characters, there's the small matter of the Deryni series - very much fantasy, of the medieval history plus magic sort, where there's a few different schools of magic floating around but psychic powers is by far the largest, being the abilities of the titular Deryni. So there's a few dozen right there. As for archivists they appear to be a pretty standard scholarly magician for a setting where the magic is tied into the divine/spirits somehow. This fits the Alkahestrists from Fullmetal Alchemist well enough.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2017-07-31, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: Why core only?
i also got to say the core classes being based on archetypes seems pretty iffy to me. Druid and cleric and paladin and cleric have a ton of overlap.
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2017-07-31, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2016
- Location
- Virgo Supercluster
The False Balance Fallacy
The tendency to interpret the rules, not based on any validity with RAW or logic, but that which makes the game (in their eyes) more balanced.
This tendency is often fueled by the incorrect belief that the game is balanced or the desire for it to be.
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2017-07-31, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
- Gender
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2017-07-31, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: Why core only?
I actually feel the ranger has enough stuff with the tracking, and favored enemy that it can stand on its own. Its a bounty hunter, its a ranger, its a hunter, its a scout, at least in my opinion there are enough things that it does that are not basically nature cleric that it can stand on its own.
Fighter on the other hand only makes sense if classes like ranger and barbarian dont existLast edited by awa; 2017-07-31 at 03:17 PM.
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2017-07-31, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Why core only?
https://thaumasiagames.blogspot.com/
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dad-is-the-DM
Homebrew quick-fixes for Cleric, Druid: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307326
Replacing the Cleric: The Theophilite packagehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318391
Fighter feats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310132
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2017-08-01, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Why core only?
Considering that some of the most unbalanced or abuse-able spells are in PHB, I dont see balance being the reason. I would venture its because DM's cant be bothered! Maybe they mistakenly think that more is less and less is more, when in fact its more is more and less is less. Perhaps even they think that more books equals more power... Which is only true in a few specific books... Something about psions comes to mind...
Lastly and that is what I do myself, is limiting the speed and range of spell procurement. I remember as a teen I had so much fun finding a spell book... who knew what dangerous or powerful spells were hidden there. If all spells from all books a available, the people will probably choose the coolest and thus that mystic feeling disappears... at leas tit does for me... So I enforce that by saying that you can choose spells from PHB as a standard and all other spells I introduce when I think its cool.... A lot of times I introduce home-brew spells that way too... Then they get really interested. So perhaps that's the reason for limiting... wanting to introduce mysterious classes along the way!???Last edited by Max Caysey; 2017-08-01 at 06:28 AM.
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2017-08-01, 05:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Why core only?
Actually, yes...you DO need to fully read every book you allow into your game. Otherwise you can wind up with a totally broken God character that leaves every other character in the dust, inta-kills everything he/she fights, and generally ruins the game for all but that player. If you have trouble grasping this concept, just think of any number of "build" threads on this board alone. How many truely broken builds have you seen pop up over the years, that you didn't even know were possible until some one posted it here. Now imagine finding out about that build during your own game, when a player springs it on you mid campaign. You didn't know about it, and didn't plan for it, now you've got your campaign in tatters because of Captain OverPower.
Splats are not written with other splats in mind. Most are barely written with core in mind. Mixing splats into a game is like doing chemistry...if you mix the wrong things together (especially if you don't know much, if anyhting at all about them), the results can be lethal.
A core only game takes that hazard off the table, and brings the game back to it's base settings, and takes a lot of possibly needless complications out of the mix."Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
- L. Long
I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.
"A plucky band of renegade short-order cooks fighting the Empire with the power of cheap, delicious food and a side order of whup-ass."
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2017-08-01, 05:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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- USA
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2017-08-01, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: Why core only?
Last edited by Max Caysey; 2017-08-01 at 06:36 AM.