The Classless RPG

[JBPuffin]

This right here? That was the point of the preamble to the original post - class systems are very good at codifying certain archetypes and making them mechanically interesting without paying the cost of system wide mechanical weight; they tend not to do well at supporting variety. It just highlighted the more negative aspects of the feature being changed.

I think part of the argument was that class systems aren't as restrictive/non-variety-supportive as the OP made them out to be, which was the point of contention. And, honestly, one I agree with. Between myself and my father, we probably have over a hundred DnD 4e/5e characters with a bewildering variety between them. I've seen very different takes on Cleric in the past...two years now? playing 5e somewhat frequently, including a Dex-based one, somehow, a war cleric who murdered things with Inflict Wounds, and a Light Cleric who seared holes into things like a normal caster. Most of my gaming career, classes have been springboards for my creativity - what can I do with what's in front of me, not how do I tolerate the demeaning shackles I've been bound in (which I've also seen, believe me).

I love Fate and M&M as systems, but they're definitely harder for me to stat up characters in. Admittedly, I very rarely have anyone to play non-DnD games with (I think I've had...three non DnD sessions in my life? Tops?), but even games like ACKS, L5R, and Burning Wheel with archetype systems are easier for me than Shadowrun, Unknown Armies, or the aforementioned which lack them. There are exceptions (looking at Anima - sooooo many parts - and Nobilis [they write themselves!] here), but generally, I need firmer frameworks than most non-class-based systems provide.

Definite recommendation - sample character builds, a mix of classics and normally-impossibles. There's a thread in Homebrew about it, with my thoughts and those of other, more esteemed posters therein. Whenever you do a derivative system, you want to prove that it can both meet the original system's needs and do things the original could not.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hmmm... most of the systems I've picked up recently tend towards giving you complete freedom then giving you a bunch of jumping off points. Take Rocket Age, sure once you've bought your Species you can go off and put your points wherever you want, but the Occupation packages give you a nice selection of traits and hint at where you might want to put your points.

Then you get Traveller, which looking it it is classed for character generation but the idea is that everyone should be roughly balanced with slightly different numbers of terms. Even then balance can go out the wall with the potential for life events and promotions to give extra skills.

[CharonsHelper]

looking at Anima - sooooo many parts

While I realize that Anima is technically a class system, it's basically a hybrid of the two. Classes mainly just adjust the cost of the point-buy in various categories.

And I'm with you. Anima has some interesting things and it comes at design from a cool direction, but it's way too convoluted for my taste.

[JBPuffin]

While I realize that Anima is technically a class system, it's basically a hybrid of the two. Classes mainly just adjust the cost of the point-buy in various categories.

And I'm with you. Anima has some interesting things and it comes at design from a cool direction, but it's way too convoluted for my taste.

See, I'm normally not too shabby with class/PB hybrids, either; it's an extension of having some clear models to follow. But it's definitely the sheer number of numbers and character sheets involved in keeping track of an ABF character...seriously, 4 magic systems (not all of them are full-on magic, but still) which run off strongly different mechanics?! One could argue 3.5 has it worse, but it usually takes just reading one class's "spellcasting" feature to get the gist...

Then we have Nobilis, which does nothing in the vein of class structure, but it provides a lot of ideas on character creation because it runs on dream logic (which I may or may not have several ASIs invested in ). I sit down with the book, read through the Lifepath setup (which actually does provide a sort of class structure, just not mechanically so much as narratively?), and within twenty minutes I have a character ranging from someone tapped on the shoulder and made into a Power to a alien-Uplifted velociraptor intrinsically tied to a Hoard which has also gained a sort of sentience while also being a Concept. Or the math prodigy who ends up becoming both a Noble and a Pikachu because the Imperial's a bit mischievous. And, of course, the half-demon who learned magic from an Excrucian and now has a full-blown reciprocated romance with said Excrucian who's hoping to help free her from her anti-reality nature. Each designed in less than half an hour from start to finish.

I really need to go through and review the games I have - like, type up summaries of my opinions after looking over them again. Would make some posts easier to write...

[CharonsHelper]

See, I'm normally not too shabby with class/PB hybrids, either; it's an extension of having some clear models to follow. But it's definitely the sheer number of numbers and character sheets involved in keeping track of an ABF character...seriously, 4 magic systems (not all of them are full-on magic, but still) which run off strongly different mechanics?! One could argue 3.5 has it worse, but it usually takes just reading one class's "spellcasting" feature to get the gist...

Yeah - I read Anima after someone mentioned the hybrid class/point-buy system, because the game I'm working on was doing that (though coming from a very different direction), but it has WAY too many unrelated sub-systems for my taste. But - opinions vary, and it was still an interesting read. I liked the vibe of the summoning rules - but again - rather convoluted.