OOTS #1086 - The Discussion Thread

[White Magic]

He's a Cleric of Earth, why wouldn't he be a bit rigid? Perhaps even hard-headed?

I imagine each of those three Earth Clerics (and all the ones back at the mountain) tied up giving just as much battle as Durkon is giving to Un*durkon. They're in for a rocky ride.

[Lordchoculla]

we know exactly why Durkon was exiled.

Spoiler: On the Origin of the Durkon

Show

The High priest of Odin got a prophecy that "When next durkon returned home, he would bring death and destruction." He was banished out of fear that the next time he went grocery shopping or something equally meaningless, he would "return home" and spark doom somehow, but he wasn't told the real reason for his banishing.

Ah. Ninja'd. And with quotes even. Nice!

[Anymage]

While true that team evil isn't one happy family, this also seems to suppose that the vampire fiend thing is there to punish the soul. In a situation where the soul is already evil, and perhaps a willing participant in the depravity, the conversation is probably a lot more like...

Soul:What the what?
Fiend: MUHAH! I'm here to corrupt your virtues! Oh... wait... I see you are already corrupted... hmm. Well, this will be easier.
Soul: Oh, I'm a vampire now? This is weird... I didn't know it worked like this... so like, what now?
Fiend: Share your memories with me so that we may merge together and get on with this evil business.
Soul: Oh. Okay... lets get it on.
*Barry White starts playing*

At least early on, it would depend entirely on how well the original was interested in cooperation. Tarquin would probably be quite happy to play along with another evil, narratively obsessed character. Even as a backseat driver. Belkar, OTOH, would hate anything that impinged on his freedom and ability to get lost in the moment of slaughtering things.

There's the question of how long it'd take for the consciousnesses to merge into a single entity, if that happens at all. But that's trying to assume metaphysics with only the smallest amount of information to work on.

Hmmm... my guess would be that the old highpriest saw that Durkon would bring destruction to the dwarven kingdom so to protect the kingdom, Durkon was expelled. However, that expulsion directly is what makes this destruction possible - if Durkon had not been expelled, he would not have been vampirized and thus would not have returned to bring doom and gloom.

Ironic, I think.

Just a thought.

Prophecies tend to come with a good dose of irony. By their very nature.

Of course, prophecies are also a devil to try and get around. Anyone with a lick of sense would know that the exile would just kick the can down the road a bit.

[B. Dandelion]

I think the future High Priestess of Thor is present at Durkon's ceremony. No scar, but the hair colour and light highlights in her hair seem to be the same.

Well-spotted! Looking again I also see that she's the only other robed cleric in attendance to be openly smiling at the ceremony -- all the others either have a neutral expression or look outright annoyed at the noise Durkon's friends are making.

So of all the clerics present, the one we know will rise highest in the church of Thor is the one least perturbed by a little raucous celebrating. Yeah, that seems about right!

[Manty5]

Well-spotted! Looking again I also see that she's the only other robed cleric in attendance to be openly smiling at the ceremony -- all the others either have a neutral expression or look outright annoyed at the noise Durkon's friends are making.

So of all the clerics present, the one we know will rise highest in the church of Thor is the one least perturbed by a little raucous celebrating. Yeah, that seems about right!

She may be looking at the high priest worshipfully. I think this compares well with the scenes of young Bandanna watching Julio and deciding that she was going to do what it takes to be a captain.

[Blatt]

It's not clear what Durkula saw that he didn't like. Giant statue of Thor? Fifty clerics in one room including the High Priest? Writing on the floor?

And the temple isn't even the objective; it's just something to get through to reach wherever the council meets.

[Cazero]

Offhand guesses of possibilities....

• If the sanctuary is normally open to the public, the exemption for public places would apply.
• If holding a runestone is sufficient to justify entry, in the same vein as Roy bearing one is supposed to, HPoH could possibly enter on that basis.
• If an off-panel victim with adequate authority was dominated into giving permission before being killed, we wouldn't see it.
• Perhaps HPoH simply hadn't thought that far ahead, and expected to dominate someone on the other side of the door.

And most likely of all :

• That restriction doesn't apply in OotSworld.

What kind of media do you guys watch? When was the last time this rule was enforced?

[factotum]

Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.

[Unoriginal]

"That´s definitively a use fer it". Just me, or does it seem Durkon has his own reason to show Durkula this particular memory?
I guess as a Thor priest he visited the temple several other times. Maybe there were some new added features not shown in this scene (like extra wards)?

I'm guessing that there was actually MORE wards for the ceremony, so Durkon selected this memory to mislead the vampire.

On another subject, it's interesting Greg had partially chosen this location because he found it fun to battle there.

Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.

He's not really hiding it, but I suppose he doesn't want to look like a fool for having been tricked by the soul of the body he inhabits.

[B. Dandelion]

She may be looking at the high priest worshipfully. I think this compares well with the scenes of young Bandanna watching Julio and deciding that she was going to do what it takes to be a captain.

Considering that that is almost certainly Hurak ordaining Durkon... I would actually prefer for this not to be the case.

I mean maybe she could have (or have had) a period of disillusionment with the guy or something, but I'd rather just see it as subtle evidence that she's, oh, a bit kinder and more patient than most. That would point to her being a likely improvement from her predecessor, who treated Durkon and his family so poorly.

[goto124]

The green-haired lady at the back trying to shush the children. Love the splash panels!

[woweedd]

Rude.
I was just adding up to a pre-existant discussion between people who (through not fault of their own) were "just now getting" to know about the SoD prophecy, because they never read that book, and others who informed them of it without mentioning the second prophecy.
My comment was there for the sake of completion.
But congratulations for knowing all of it already.

Wasn't trying to be rude. I was just confused. Sorry if I came across that way.

[Mad Humanist]

I think the future High Priestess of Thor is present at Durkon's ceremony. No scar, but the hair colour and light highlights in her hair seem to be the same.

A coincidence I suspect. She's sitting on the family side. That would make her related to Durkon, which would have completely changed the plot. She would immediately have known Durkon's name when his letter arrived. Also she does not look that similar.

[Ruck]

Prophecies tend to come with a good dose of irony. By their very nature.

Of course, prophecies are also a devil to try and get around. Anyone with a lick of sense would know that the exile would just kick the can down the road a bit.

This particular irony goes all the way back to at least Oedipus Rex, although it's no less effective for it.

And most likely of all :

• That restriction doesn't apply in OotSworld.

What kind of media do you guys watch? When was the last time this rule was enforced?

Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff Angel both adhered to the rule about entry.

Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.

I didn't read it as hiding anything, really. Just a little bit of villain flair, maybe even just for the reader's benefit.

[Themrys]

I just noticed all the angry priests in the back trying to shush Durkon's friends and family who are cheering him. Nice touch.

Looking at the scene, ALL the priests except the woman in the front look unhappy.

Is this just the default expression of dwarves, or is there something more to it?

[Wowlock]

At this point...I will be glad to see those vampires turn to ash by the end.

[Quebbster]

Considering we already know the scenes in Durkon's mind happens at the speed of thought, I can't help but wonder why Greg wasted time explaining for his pack what he was going to to. The whole page in Durkon's mind probably passed by in less time than that one speech balloon.

[Laurana]

Lovely splash panel! Also, I'm highly amused by Gonthor* and highly intrigued by Durkon's ploy in showing that particular memory.

[warmachine]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

[Millstone85]

Evil people don't simply want evil things to happen, evil is not one big happy family. Evil is not a team where you are happy if your team is doing well.

Evil people want things that benefit them or their cause to happen badly enough that they don't care about the consequences to others.

Some evil people, at least in D&D, do simply want evil things to happen. They might even proclaim their cause as being the cause of Evil.

But that's not what I was talking about.

The vampire's evil may not be the same as the soul's evil, and even if it is, benefiting the vampire doesn't benefit the soul.

The vampire begins its existence as "your worst day, personified" and then progressively turns itself into an evil version of all that you were, by absorbing your very soul into itself. What is interesting about that premise is that the vampire's evil is the soul's evil, and eventually the two entities will become one. More of a digestion than a fusion, yes, but what if there is very little to digest? With a sufficiently evil soul, all that would be missing in the final product would be their last remaining scruples. So it is possible the soul would embrace the change.

Plus, hey, it's entirely possible for even the most depraved individuals to have things they care about that the vampire may hurt. I mean, even Belkar has at least one creature he cares about. Vampire Belker would probably wiring Mr. Scruffy's neck.

If Malack is any indication, even vampires have nurturing instincts, though it makes them no less evil. I do wonder how vampire Belkar would react to Mr. Scruffy if it did not see the cat as a potential alignment-shift catalyzer.

Can I quote these?

I would rather you did not. Those two quotes in your signature would make it look like Doug shut me up. And if you think he did, then your signature would be all the more rude to me.

[Quebbster]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate.

Good thing it is not based on any sort of science then. Apparently this is how memories work in OOTS-World. Probably because it looks better in the webcomic that way.

[Werbaer]

How big is Durkon's family? He has a cousin, but is that the only one?

It's just Durkon and his mother (and in the past, his grandfather).

The other adults (Uncle Thirden, Uncle Hoskin, Aunt Shirra, Uncle Kandro, (yet unnamed)) became friends with his mother right before he was born.
The so-called cousins are not related to Durkon.

[Alcore]

Someone has anger issues


Hmmm.... I only see wards on the archway leading away. Though they could have covered some with the blue rug. And that old dwarf looks grumpy; dwelling on his future stay in Hel no doubt

[Lheticus]

I wonder, is the Giant TRYING to make a new version of the "stop oppressing my culture/suppressing our rupture" meme? Because I think he likely succeeded with "Do your job, you disobedient ingress!"

[Cazero]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer and its spinoff Angel both adhered to the rule about entry.

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.
But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it and is a real stopper for an entity that needs to murder people to live, it really is a weird restriction to put on yourself when you want to write vampires as threats.

Looking at the scene, ALL the priests except the woman in the front look unhappy.

Is this just the default expression of dwarves, or is there something more to it?

I suggest you look in a mirror and notice how you're probably not smiling. That expression you take for a frown is the default of the human face, not an expression of disatisfaction or unhappiness.

[Quebbster]

I keep being reminded of this old joke:

Spoiler

Show

[Unoriginal]

When was the last time this rule was enforced?

Not sure if it was the last time, but it was a plot point in an Adventure Time episode not too long ago.

Also, DnD 5e's vampires are unable to enter a home without being invited, too.


For a more personal anecdote:

A few years ago, when me and my old group were playing Pathfinder, the DM had the house we were in surrounded by a large gang of vampires. We were in "oh s**t" mode for a bit... until we realized that those vampires couldn't come in without being invited. Leading the head vampire trying to tell us to get out while we laugh at her face.

Then this happen:

Head Vampire: *taunt/threaten the PCs in a way everyone know won't be able to affect us*

One of the players, in-character: "Oh yeah? Why don't you come here and tell this to our face?"

Cue all the other players looking at the guy with the most flabbergasted expression ever as the DM grins.

[Quibblicious]

Increased use of half-page splash panels, mostly.

Well, it looks magnificent.

Thanks for all the hard work.

Q

[Unoriginal]

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.

Most of the vampires were mooks (or elite mook) compared to the super-powered protagonist, but for the average human they were more or less unbeatable and even the well-trained humans tended to have a tough fight against them (and had to rely on the vampires' weaknesses to do the kill). Several vampires were powerful enough to be deadly threats for whole seasons, tough.

But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it

Are you kidding?

and is a real stopper for an entity that needs to murder people to live, it really is a weird restriction to put on yourself when you want to write vampires as threats.

As it turns out, very powerful beings having some conditional limitations often increase the tension and helps the direction of how a scene goes.

I suggest you look in a mirror and notice how you're probably not smiling. That expression you take for a frown is the default of the human face, not an expression of disatisfaction or unhappiness.

In OoTS's artstyle, the default is not a frown. And most of those dwarves clearly look at the family with annoyance.

Unless you meant the dwarves who are just looking at the ceremony with a neutral expression that leaves the mouth's corners slightly dropping, but I wouldn't call that a frown.

[Millstone85]

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.
But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it and is a real stopper for an entity that needs to murder people to live, it really is a weird restriction to put on yourself when you want to write vampires as threats.

I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.

Now, I don't remember Buffy's vampires having a problem with crossing running water or counting fallen grains (except for one who already had that OCD as a human).