Vampires and tactical options

[mikelibrarian]

Even better, Magic Circle Against Evil would affect many people and lasts 10 mins per level.

Even if Varsuvius has it in her spell book, it may be slightly less robust.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html

[pendell]

I have an idea. Can Elan perform a song that will boost everyone's Will saving throw? That would enable him to participate in the battle as a useful member while nullifying the gaze, and perhaps other issues as well.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chei]

Against vampires in general, start with Greater Dispel Magic to remove their Protection from Sunlight special-spell, then Vaarsuvius hits them with a 8th level Sunburst. It has an incredibly wide area, and if a vampire fails the save it's an instant kill. (And clerics have bad reflex saves.) The HPoH only has the one staff with the spell on it, plus his own memorizations; a blanket Dispel may get several minions and then clear them off the board while the HPoH puts up his defense again. Unfortunately, V probably only has one of those - but it's an evocation and he's an evocation specialist, so he could have two.

As for Haley, I'm surprised no one mentioned the most obvious use of her archery capabilities - called shots to stake the heart. Whatever rules one intends to use for such things it would be a difficult shot and would probably require some kind of set-up or method that holds one of the minions still for her to line up dramatic shot, but there it is. To say nothing of Belkar with a stake in each hand two-weaponing for five called shot possibilities.

Clerics have bad Reflex saves, but vampires get a +4 from the base creature (+2 Dex Modifier, +2 from Lightning Reflexes). That said, I approve of the tactic. Its only weakness is that V will be the primary target for that GDM round, and four Flame Strikes would put them down.

I think if Elan was willing to sink a bunch of charges from his CMW wand, he could do some substantial damage to the lesser vampires - more than his rapier damage, at least. Or, he could relegate the wand to healing only and burn his spell slots on offensive healing, which would let him use his far superior caster level and Cha bonus for the saves.

Elan using Cure Critical Wounds would put him at about third place among the party in terms of damage-dealing.

[luagha]

There's also a rarely-used spell called 'Halt Undead.' Holds three undead motionless (intelligent undead get a save, they come free upon taking damage.) It's a good set-up for a staking attempt.

[Jasdoif]

Durkon is level 14 -- and he's going to still execute dominate person as a level 14, isn't he? He has some ECL plus levels because of the vampire template, but that's only for calculating CR, right? It doesn't impact the level of his gaze?

ECL and CR measure different things; but his actual levels are the only thing that are going to influence his options, yes. (ECL only really effects how much experience he'll get if he overcomes the encounter)

HPOH, meanwhile, has level 14 and a charisma boost. -2 for being a dwarf, +4 for being a vampire, for a total of +2, right?

So ... the check for a saving throw against a spell is 10+the level of the spell+the cleric's charisma modifier. According to the entry for vampire in SRD, the level of the gaze attack is 12, despite the HPOH's class level being higher SO that gives us

DC 10 + 12 + 2 = 24.

...no. First, feel free to throw a random edible object at WotC for using "spell level" and "caster level" as terms so close together The effect works similarly to dominate person cast as a 12th level caster, meaning it'll last twelve days without the vampire needing to renew it. The spell level would depend on which class list it was being cast as a spell from...well, except we're not talking about casting a spell or using a spell-like ability here.

Domination is a supernatural special attack. As explicitly mentioned in the template, all of the vampire special attacks that have saves have a save DC of 10 + half hit dice + Charisma modifier. (Basicially they didn't want to say "The save DC is Charisma-based" a bunch of times so they put that right under "Special Attacks" when they wrote it).

And finally, you'd apply the Charisma modifier, which is half of (Charisma-10), rounded down.

So with your assumptions, that's

10 + 7 (half of 14) + 1 (Cha modifier).

For a DC of 18.

So what about Elan? He's got a will save of +9 at level 14 as a bard. Take away 1 for charisma, that gives us +8.

I'm guessing you mean -1 for an optimistic guess of his Wisdom, there?

Anyway, assuming the Dashing Swordsman class doesn't have a good Will save progression and Elan only has one or two levels in it, that sounds about right.


So, DC 18 on a 1d20+8 roll....Elan passes on 10 or higher, so 55% chance he succeeds, so 45% chance he fails. Dominating Elan is doable, to be sure, but probably not something to expect to work with only a single vampire trying it.

[pendell]

I'm guessing you mean -1 for an optimistic guess of his Wisdom, there?

Correct. We've seen evidence wisdom of lower than 10 so I chose wisdom 9 because it's the most optimistic scenario in this case. If his wisdom was 4 or so the numbers would be a little different, so I'm looking at a best-case scenario.

So, DC 18 on a 1d20+8 roll....Elan passes on 10 or higher, so 55% chance he succeeds, so 45% chance he fails. Dominating Elan is doable, to be sure, but probably not something to expect to work with only a single vampire trying it.

Hm... I'll concede a 45% of failing his save versus domination. But a vampire can do this once per round on an unlimited basis, can he not? So that means we should have elan dominated in approximately 2-3 rounds -- provided the vamp is able to spend his action during those rounds on that alone, which he probably won't. V and Roy are the greatest threats here.

So I'll concede Elan will probably be able to keep his will for at least some of the early fight, because the vampires will be trying to take out the higher level threats first. So it's not as bad for him as I had thought.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Jasdoif]

Hm... I'll concede a 45% of failing his save versus domination. But a vampire can do this once per round on an unlimited basis, can he not? So that means we should have elan dominated in approximately 2-3 rounds -- provided the vamp is able to spend his action during those rounds on that alone, which he probably won't. V and Roy are the greatest threats here.

There's no reason only one vampire can be trying to dominate Elan at a time. Going after Haley might be easier (I seriously doubt she's carting around average-or-worse Wisdom), but Elan's a high value target: he's got spellcasting, and if he gets the chance to start a bard song for the Order the effects will last at least five rounds...which could outlast the encounter itself. (And no; those songs are mind-affecting, so they won't work on the undead vampires)

I suspect the Vampiric Cabal's only shot at winning this battle requires both neutralizing Vaarusuvius, and aiding HPoH more than the Order aids Roy. Which is still a tall order, of course, but one that can be worked towards; and keeping Roy from getting boosted is working towards it.

[Chei]

That's definitely their best bet, which is why it won't be what they do. My guess is that Durkula wants to rub some more "heroic guilt" into Roy's face, by mostly targeting the other members, before actually killing him. If I was him, I definitely wouldn't want an open battle. Hit-and-run and attrition tactics are a vampire's natural forte, to say nothing of the fact that they're all undead clerics. Fighting in the main hall of Thor's temple is a recipe for failure. Mineshafts and low-light tunnels are where it's at. Like over half the current Order is human.

[Jasdoif]

That's definitely their best bet, which is why it won't be what they do.

Or alternatively, exactly why it will be what they do. A fast victory against the undead monster holding Durkon's body and soul hostage isn't going to be narratively satisfying; nor is a drawn-out one-sided battle. It's got to look like both sides have a good chance of winning, trading small victories on either side, up until Durkon's efforts pay off and HPoH screws up his chances of victory and everything follows from there.

So the first part is the Vampiric Cabal starting with a plan that could conceivably work And if the IFCC decides to take Vaarsuvius out of the fight rather than risk Vaarsuvius being killed at this juncture, the Vampiric Cabal isn't going to have much opportunity to question their good fortune; it'll have the same short-term effect on the battle without the long-term consequences on the story. Convenient!

[pendell]

There's no reason only one vampire can be trying to dominate Elan at a time.

True, but the issue is that the other vampires probably do not have the HPOH's level and hit dice. The one impersonating Guntar (or whatever the stone high priest's name is) is probably comparable to the HPOH, but the other two are probably lower level and will have more problems trying to dominate Elan.

And while they are doing this, what are they doing about the rest of the Order?

I'm just not seeing how they have time in the first few rounds to dominate Elan and have some convincing line of attack against Roy and V. What I'd want to do in their shoes is to see if I could find a way to dominate him before the battle even started.

Maybe guerrilla tactics are the way to go -- pick off one weak-willed member at a time using domination, have a light pre-battle snack, then go into action against the main force.

The only problem with that plan is that it leaves Vaarsuvius free to act and that is never a good idea when facing a high-level wizard.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Chei]

Or alternatively, exactly why it will be what they do. A fast victory against the undead monster holding Durkon's body and soul hostage isn't going to be narratively satisfying; nor is a drawn-out one-sided battle. It's got to look like both sides have a good chance of winning, trading small victories on either side, up until Durkon's efforts pay off and HPoH screws up his chances of victory and everything follows from there.

I don't think either team is going to roll the dice quite as intelligently as you and others have predicted . I am, however, very interested in the idea of the Fiends putting V down for, what was it, about 3 minutes? To save their life. That's one of those forward-thinking villain moves that makes me like those jerks so much. Also, we might get hints about what Sabine has been up to for the last week or two.

I'm hyped to see how Durkon gets out of this. Or at least gets the vampire put down. Heck, maybe Durkon's been the one fostering all this hatred the vampire has for Roy in preparation for goading him into a costly tactical overreach. Well, another costly tactical overreach.

[luagha]

Oh, and since someone mentioned the use of darkness, I should mention that Sunburst is an 8th level Evocation (Light) spell, and counters and dispels all Darkness spells of equal or lower level within its area.

[Jasdoif]

I'm just not seeing how they have time in the first few rounds to dominate Elan and have some convincing line of attack against Roy and V.

Well the time part is easy enough if they pull off an ambush: HPoH hits Vaarsuvius with destruction (and Vaarsuvius is either obliterated or the IFCC intercedes), the first or second of TNDV/Exarch/VTSA dominates Belkar before he has a chance to activate his protection item, the rest try to dominate Elan....And that's just the surprise round; being vampires they'll have the Dexterity boost and the bonus Improved Initiative feat; they have an excellent chance of going first in the normal round of combat too. HPoH moves to engage Roy, and TNDV/Exarch/VTSA try to dominate Elan or Haley.


The odds of it going that way so cleanly are rather slim, but they can't help that. They're outnumbered and outleveled. They'd love to have had the chance to quit while they were ahead, as that would mean they were ahead at some point. As the scenario is, though, trying to maximize their chance of success and hoping it works out is what they've got to work with. And they're on an undeadline; they're there to rig the Godsmoot tiebreaker, and if they spend too much time or too many spells on the Order to pull that off...they're even bigger still losers.


As for dominate DCs....

• TNDV cast greater dispel magic and is therefore at least 11th level, and not a dwarf so she lacks the Charisma penalty; she could well be able to dominate as well as HPoH can.
• The Exarch isn't going to be that much lower level than HPoH, a five-or-ten percentage point difference isn't going to be a deal breaker.
• VTSA is a vampire spawn: she has four hit dice, didn't retain her spellcasting, and would lose a melee competition with any of the Order (including Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing)*; attempting her lower-DC dominate against one of the much-higher-level Order members is probably the only meaningful action she can attempt.

* Okay, an actual melee one-on-one against Mr. Scruffy or Blackwing would drag on but ultimately result in a victory for VTSA, since she has damage reduction and fast healing. But she'd need a roll of 16 or higher to hit either of them; melee is not going to be an effective use of her time.

[The MunchKING]

Well with everything except Magic, wouldn't turning into a gaseous form and hovering out of range of everyone's attacks, but in range of their vampire powers/Cleric Magic work pretty well?

I mean Hailey might get lucky with the Icy Burst, but other than that, I wouldn't think any of the fighting people could do anything about it. Then they focus firepower on V to keep Magic from hitting them, and then grind the rest of the Order of the Stick down with Attrition.

[Jasdoif]

Well with everything except Magic, wouldn't turning into a gaseous form and hovering out of range of everyone's attacks, but in range of their vampire powers/Cleric Magic work pretty well?

The gaseous form ability works as the gaseous form spell; they couldn't attack, use their supernatural vampire abilities, or cast spells with verbal/somatic/material/focus components.

[The MunchKING]

The gaseous form ability works as the gaseous form spell; they couldn't attack, use their supernatural vampire abilities, or cast spells with verbal/somatic/material/focus components.

Oh. Never mind then, that would be quite stupid of them.

[Goblin_Priest]

I still don't really feel like Elan is even all the important in such a said fight (just tips the favors even more in their favor), much less that vampires dominating him would be much of a game changer.

[drazen]

Elan doesn't have a weapon to do it with, though.

Also, the vampires can heal themselves/each other pretty much at will, whereas the Order collectively only has a handful of spell slots available for healing. The longer the fight drags out, the more the advantage will slide toward Team Hel, and that's before you take potential dominations into account. Roy is unusually resistant for his class, and Vaarsuvius has a solid Will save - but Elan and Haley are one second of eye contact each away from dancing on puppet strings, and Belkar needs to subject himself to constant harm to avoid joining them.

Why is Haley considered weak-willed? Other than Durkon's off-hand comment, which obviously referred to Elan and Belkar as those most likely to be dominated, what about Haley makes her susceptible to this? She seems to be fairly strong-willed (metaphorically, if not statistically) in her own right. And unlike Roy, Elan, or Belkar, I do not recall seeing Haley (along with Durkon or Vaarsuvius) ever being mesmerized by a mind-affecting enemy. I'm not a D&D player or RPG player (other than a few computer RPG's: Wizardry, Tunnels of Doom, and Kingdom of Loathing, but none of them for many years), I just enjoy the story. So I looked up Rogue will saves via Google, and according to the chart, Haley's is at least +5 at 15th/16th level. Class and level geekery has no Wisdom score for her, but she has generally conducted herself quite shrewdly, other than when Nale was impersonating Elan.

[Chei]

Well, +5 at level 15 is a pretty bad progression. As folks here have noted, a bard like Elan has a good progression and a +9 base save at his estimated level. I do think that, story-wise, Haley would be harder to dominate than Elan, so it might be prudent to leave those numbers aside (Haley is confirmed to not have the 20+ Wisdom score she'd need to have a Will save stronger than Elan's base). With all that said, Roy's Will save has been talked up quite a bit, and he was shown having trouble, especially after a level drain or two.

If I was going to point to an example of Haley being 'weak-willed' enough to fall to the vampire gaze, it wouldn't be the not-nale fiasco but the general breakdown where she couldn't speak for however many dozens of pages. That was a long time ago and she has had character development since then.

[luagha]

Gaseous Form is great against Roy, but theoretically Vaarsuvius should still be able to damage them with magic. And if he can out damage their fast healing, they should die at 0 hp because no coffins.

[Reddish Mage]

Gaseous Form is great against Roy, but theoretically Vaarsuvius should still be able to damage them with magic. And if he can out damage their fast healing, they should die at 0 hp because no coffins.

I thought Roy demonstrated he can damage vampires in gaseous form when his sword glows, and now that Roy knows how to use his sword (and can throw it and recall it), gaseous form is probably a tactical error that just wastes actions.

[Chei]

[*]VTSA is a vampire spawn: she has four hit dice, didn't retain her spellcasting, and would lose a melee competition with any of the Order (including Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing)*; attempting her lower-DC dominate against one of the much-higher-level Order members is probably the only meaningful action she can attempt.

I mean I agree there's room for her to be a spawn since she hasn't cast a spell on-screen, but on the first panel of #1086 she says "Master, we already tried scrying inside." I take this to indicate that she and the non-dwarf vampire did so between pages. Unless "we" has taken on a new meaning of "she did it while I watched", she must be capable of some kind of scrying spell, which makes her a full vampire.

[Jasdoif]

I mean I agree there's room for her to be a spawn since she hasn't cast a spell on-screen, but on the first panel of #1086 she says "Master, we already tried scrying inside." I take this to indicate that she and the non-dwarf vampire did so between pages. Unless "we" has taken on a new meaning of "she did it while I watched", she must be capable of some kind of scrying spell, which makes her a full vampire.

One, it's probably the mildest assumption I made just so I'd have something to brainstorm potential tactics from

Two, "we" could just as easily refer to the Vampiric Cabal as a whole.

[Chei]

One, it's probably the mildest assumption I made just so I'd have something to brainstorm potential tactics from

Two, "we" could just as easily refer to the Vampiric Cabal as a whole.

It could refer to the coven, sure, if we didn't know that one member was arguing with his dwarf and the other was arguing with a door.

Even assuming VTSA did have any scrying spells, I don't even know enough about Divination to tell what the popular spells are, and therefore how powerful she might be. For all I know she cast some limp level 3 spell and is literally just 5 HD rather than 4.

[Jasdoif]

It could refer to the coven, sure, if we didn't know that one member was arguing with his dwarf and the other was arguing with a door.

If you assume they didn't try scrying until after the runestone crumbled, sure.

Even assuming VTSA did have any scrying spells, I don't even know enough about Divination to tell what the popular spells are, and therefore how powerful she might be. For all I know she cast some limp level 3 spell and is literally just 5 HD rather than 4.

The basic scrying would require 9 levels for a cleric...and also take an hour to cast. Greater scrying would only take a standard action to cast, but also require 13 levels for a cleric. As in, HPoH would be the one casting it (under my earlier linked assumptions that he's the minimum 13th it'd take to explain the spells we've seen him cast) and dedicating one of his highest-level spell slots to it. I suppose it's possible, particularly if he cast it before refreshing spells at dusk (as in, he had it prepared on Godsmoot day on the assumption he wouldn't need the slot for anything or anyone else)...but in that case we're back at it happening well before the door debate

[Chei]

If you assume they didn't try scrying until after the runestone crumbled, sure.

I do, in fact.

The basic scrying would require 9 levels for a cleric...and also take an hour to cast. Greater scrying would only take a standard action to cast, but also require 13 levels for a cleric. As in, HPoH would be the one casting it (under my earlier linked assumptions that he's the minimum 13th it'd take to explain the spells we've seen him cast) and dedicating one of his highest-level spell slots to it. I suppose it's possible, particularly if he cast it before refreshing spells at dusk (as in, he had it prepared on Godsmoot day on the assumption he wouldn't need the slot for anything or anyone else)...but in that case we're back at it happening well before the door debate

As much as it amuses me to imagine Ex-Arch railing at a door for over an hour, I concede that it probably didn't happen between pages. Perhaps the coven tried scrying the temple before they began their assault on the outside, in which case this would indeed be the full four-membered 'we'. Even then, I don't feel like the vampires will dedicate a full hour to scrying. They're in a rush. I think it's possible that 1. the Scrying spell is a standard action in the OOTS-verse, like Break Enchantment, or 2. scrying is a general term for a larger list of divination spells, making it impossible to pin down the actual spell.

[KorvinStarmast]

The HPoH only has the one staff with the spell on it, plus his own memorizations;

No he doesn't. It was snapped over Roy's knee.

[unbeliever536]

As much as it amuses me to imagine Ex-Arch railing at a door for over an hour, I concede that it probably didn't happen between pages. Perhaps the coven tried scrying the temple before they began their assault on the outside, in which case this would indeed be the full four-membered 'we'. Even then, I don't feel like the vampires will dedicate a full hour to scrying. They're in a rush. I think it's possible that 1. the Scrying spell is a standard action in the OOTS-verse, like Break Enchantment, or 2. scrying is a general term for a larger list of divination spells, making it impossible to pin down the actual spell.

They know they've got a day or so at least until the Order shows up, and the council isn't even present yet. They can easily spare an hour to (try to) figure out if the place where they want to set their big ambush is actually usable for that purpose.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

They know they've got a day or so at least until the Order shows up, and the council isn't even present yet. They can easily spare an hour to (try to) figure out if the place where they want to set their big ambush is actually usable for that purpose.

The Mechane's arriving at Firmament before midnight - as per Hel's comment to Durkula in the third panel of #1084.

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned as an option is what Durkon was going to use in Girard's Pyramid - Planar Ally.

[Chei]

The Mechane's arriving at Firmament before midnight - as per Hel's comment to Durkula in the third panel of #1084.

One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned as an option is what Durkon was going to use in Girard's Pyramid - Planar Ally.

That has come up in a previous chapter's thread, I believe. A few people who posited that Durkula might have 8th-level spells suggested that his best use for them would be to use Create Greater Undead or Greater Planar Ally.