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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    [.....]I work in the USA. What kind of f#@$ed up *******s have you worked for?[...]

    Various construction and hauling jobs with my Dad from the 1970's into the early 1990's,

    1986 to 1988: Video rental store, my chief task was to pack up old "adult movies to send to the owner for his use.

    1988 to 1993: Attendant to the handicapped, main duty was lifting people out of beds and wheelchairs. The irony of crippling my back to help the crippled was noticed by me.

    1993 to 2000: Motorcycle and Jetski shop, the owner actually put his hands on my throat and I had to restrain him, I quit went jobless for a month, then I received multiple calls begging me to come back, and I worked for an additional 5 years.

    2000 to 2011: Construction plumber, as first as an Apprentice than as a Journeyman. WORST YEARS OF MY LIFE. I spent most of 2009 unemployed and my health greatly improved.

    2011 to present: Plumbing repairs for The City and County of San Francisco. Still dangerous and painful work, so it still desyroys my body, but it does my soul good to be working for an enterprise that's goal is the common good instead of private profit. Unlike private industry, where being ordered to lie was common, now I'm just told to refer all questions to a "public information" someone.

    I had a couple of non-sociopathic bosses, but It's because I lasted so long that I know the body and soul destroying thieves of most of private industry for what they are, and since I'll be 50 years old in just a few months and am still working I suspect that I have had more work experience than most Playgrounders.

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  2. - Top - End - #632
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    You can't do that because you need the money? Well, A) your health is far more important than your money, and B) find other ways to make money. It has literally never been easier to make cash in ways other than full time 9-5 6 day work weeks. I currently work for a glorified taxi service that has no set times to work.
    How much money does that actually make? Enough to provide health insurance and such? Because from what I've found there's really nothing out there that reliably makes enough money to pay the basic bills for someone living on their own, and doesn't require a regular work week with set times. That's just life. Other stuff is for if you want to make a bit of extra money on the side, unless you want to work super long hours all the time.

    Really, though...I had 50h of unplanned time off last year. Keep in mind my shifts are 10h long. That's a mix of callouts, a handful of late arrivals, I think there's one or two early departures due to illness in there. That's apparently shockingly excessive and the good employees call out no more than one or two days a year. That's what I've found to be pretty standard at most jobs.

    There's not a whole lot to do in labor law over here. My state has no requirements for any form of breaks during the workday for adult employees. If you have a single chronic condition that you can point to, you might be able to get FMLA, but if it's more like me where it's "I get every cold that someone else brings in because they're working sick and then I end up throwing up and too dizzy to function for a day or two because my immune system hates me" there's really no relief.
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  3. - Top - End - #633
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I had a couple of non-sociopathic bosses, but It's because I lasted so long that I know the body and soul destroying thieves of most of private industry for what they are, and since I'll be 50 years old in just a few months and am still working I suspect that I have had more work experience than most Playgrounders.
    When I sat down and talked to my eldest son about the "facts of life", it wasn't about girls, it was about corporations.

    I told him: corporations are -- literally -- soulless. They are not your friend. They do not like you. They do not care about you. They CANNOT care about you, because they are not human, they are machines designed to make profits.

    They pay you a salary because they have calculated that the value you bring, in the form of increased revenue, decreased costs, or decreased risk, is greater than the cost of your salary and benefits. If you want to continue getting paid, wake every morning and make sure that the benefit you bring to the corporation is greater than your cost. This is not about 'enslaving yourself to the machine' or anything like that; it is acknowledging the fundamentally transactional nature of employment -- As a worker, I provide value; as an employer, you pay me for the work I do providing that value. If I am not providing that value, the employer will terminate me, much as if were they not to pay me (or not pay me enough), I would walk away and stop working for them.

    Some bosses are nice. Some bosses may even genuinely like you -- they are human, and they might like you as a person. But the moment you stop providing net value for the corporation, it is the boss's job -- it is the boss's OBLIGATION -- to fire you.

    Some companies may treat you nicely. But that is only because they have decided that treating their workers well will, in the end, bring them more profit at a lower cost than treating their workers poorly. Even the 'nicest' company will drop you if are a net negative.

    To put it another way: Your mother makes you free food every day, and [the company I work for] gives me free food every day. But your mother does it because she loves you. She does it because you are her son and she wants you to be happy and healthy. [The company I work for] gives me food because giving their workers food allows them to attract & retain skillful programmers who can make their business work better and end up attracting more ad dollars, eventually leading to higher profits.

    Your family will always love you. Your company will drop you the moment you are not a valuable employee. Never forget the difference, and always make sure you are a valuable asset to them.

  4. - Top - End - #634
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    Your family will always love you. Your company will drop you the moment you are not a valuable employee. Never forget the difference, and always make sure you are a valuable asset to them.
    The first part is kinda doubtful for some of us, at least. Unless by "free food" you mean "food that you're paying for by being expected to be 100% emotionally available and continually sympathetic and comforting, but never needing any breaks or support for yourself."

    The second..the struggle for some of us is, what if you can't be the kind of valuable employee companies want for the kind of jobs that are actually hiring? The answer you get is "you're a bad employee who needs to do better, even if you have no control at all over the problem, but don't you dare expect any assistance from anyone or you're a selfish, lazy entitled kid who needs to grow up and get with the real world."
    Last edited by WarKitty; 2018-03-10 at 08:18 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    In other news, an update to:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    [....]On Tuesday and Wednesday I had previously signed out for vacation days, so I could visit my father, who is dying of a brain tumor at a hospital Psych ward, where he had been placed against his will because the staff at the hospice he was at say he was violent.

    I had seen just how removed from reality my father has become, and when I last saw him he told me that "I don't ever wan to see you again", so I stayed away for a month, but the Physicians caring for him say he is very likely to die soon, so I had resolved to visit him anyway, but both days, I couldn't bring myself to leave my car, which I stayed in for almost ten hours on Tuesday, and over eleven hours yesterday, because I just couldn't have the courage to face again the descent of my father into madness and death.

    I"m back at work, and unlike Monday, when I closed seven Service Orders, today I've only repaired one sink for the DA's, and the usual drains up in the Jail, which needs still more repairs, but instead of going back up to the Jail, I'm hiding and writing this post.

    I signed out for a vacation day last Thursday with an intention of visiting my father before he dies, despite him saying "I never want to see you again", but my cowardice and some extreme back pain that's been getting worse this past month kept me away.

    I went to work on Friday, causing more debilatating pain as did lifting my 21 month son today.

    I had also signed out for vacation days next Monday and Wednesday, with plans to see my father, but I just spoke to me brother who told me the news that "He's past".

    The body is "still on the floor" of the hospital "if you want to say goodbye", but I can't think of a reason to visit a lifeless body (I've seen enough of them unclogging drains at the autopsy room at work).

    There is no "At least he had a good life" condolences to be had, as he really didn't, and since he didn't believe that he's "Going to a better place", there isn't that either.

    My brother lives in Maryland not California, but unlike me he's allowed to take personal calls (I mostly work in the Jail where cellphones are forbidden), so he gets the news, but he can't physically be here so I will have to decide what to do with my fathers body and his things.



    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    ....the struggle for some of us is, what if you can't be the kind of....

    Looks like you have a clear-eyed-view of your situation @WarKitty, there is no "bootstrapping" solution for bad luck and ill-health, and those who say otherwise are either naive pollyanna's or victim-blaming scumbags.

    Unfortunately what would help you and allow you to stay where you live is beyond what may be discussed.

    So maybe move to Massachusetts? (other places would be even better but you aren't a citizen of there).
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  6. - Top - End - #636
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    When I sat down and talked to my eldest son about the "facts of life", it wasn't about girls, it was about corporations.

    I told him: corporations are -- literally -- soulless. They are not your friend. They do not like you. They do not care about you. They CANNOT care about you, because they are not human, they are machines designed to make profits.

    They pay you a salary because they have calculated that the value you bring, in the form of increased revenue, decreased costs, or decreased risk, is greater than the cost of your salary and benefits. If you want to continue getting paid, wake every morning and make sure that the benefit you bring to the corporation is greater than your cost. This is not about 'enslaving yourself to the machine' or anything like that; it is acknowledging the fundamentally transactional nature of employment -- As a worker, I provide value; as an employer, you pay me for the work I do providing that value. If I am not providing that value, the employer will terminate me, much as if were they not to pay me (or not pay me enough), I would walk away and stop working for them.

    Some bosses are nice. Some bosses may even genuinely like you -- they are human, and they might like you as a person. But the moment you stop providing net value for the corporation, it is the boss's job -- it is the boss's OBLIGATION -- to fire you.

    Some companies may treat you nicely. But that is only because they have decided that treating their workers well will, in the end, bring them more profit at a lower cost than treating their workers poorly. Even the 'nicest' company will drop you if are a net negative.

    To put it another way: Your mother makes you free food every day, and [the company I work for] gives me free food every day. But your mother does it because she loves you. She does it because you are her son and she wants you to be happy and healthy. [The company I work for] gives me food because giving their workers food allows them to attract & retain skillful programmers who can make their business work better and end up attracting more ad dollars, eventually leading to higher profits.

    Your family will always love you. Your company will drop you the moment you are not a valuable employee. Never forget the difference, and always make sure you are a valuable asset to them.

    Well we all have net values but mostly when I fire people it's because they are totally useless, the standard is bare minimum because if I fire bare minimum I risk getting totally useless instead. I know other bosses that fire people because they don't like their faces, but mostly I notice that a lot of people that get into leadership positions should never ever ever ever have any kind of authority at all.
    My current boss is one of those people and one of these days I'll probably have to have him removed....by the police no less.

    What I hate the most is the damned propaganda that doesn't reflect the Corporation at all. Nice little advertisements or brochures with beautiful people in work clothes that never get dirty. Then the Corportation tries to inspire loyalty in the cheapest way possible, low costs for your loyalty. My boss tried to convince me to come to work during a weekend when we were moving our local offices and babbled something about team spirit, pizza and getting the work done. I said no because he had no intention of paying me and I know the Corporation won't show up on my doorstep when I'm moving even if we can get some team building done and I give it a pizza.

    A friend of mine always showed up for spring cleaning at the "Drug Factory" where he works, they clean the outside of the property, pick up trash and get everything in order after a the winter so it looks nice and then they'll have a barbecue with hot dogs and soda. So he shows up with his kids and they put in couple of hours of work before they have a hot dog until I asked him if he was a tool? The idiots show up and do a couple of hours work for some hot dogs....no wages, just hot dogs and they grill the hot dogs themselves.

    Then you have Corporate values. Three or four words, core values of the company. When I get fresh faced trainees I usually tell them that those core values can be thrown into the bin, there is only one core value "do the work at the best of your ability"

    I'm sorry to say that most of my adult life I have been in management and I know that a most of the corporate culture is of an exploitative nature. Luckily I have also been a union representative so I am no stranger to disappointment.

    Yes I know there are good bosses out there and good companies but I haven't had the privilege to work for them.
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  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Part of the problem is the greater and greater corporatization you see in almost every industry. Sole proprietorship is down, locally-owned businesses are down, etc etc.

    Corporations are a different beast from your locally-owned petshop or what-have-you. The further the people at the top get from their employees and the communities they serve, the more they lose the human touch. Likewise the more bureaucratized a business becomes.

    When I got offered an upper management position at my corporate job, I turned it down. I'd seen too many good guys go in with the attitude that they would be different, just to turn into the same callous monsters that corporate management policies, pay schemes, and bonus structures dictate they must be. I couldn't in good conscience treat people the way the corporation would want me to.

    You have to understand that most of them aren't bad people, but they are punished if they are not. Not punished like disciplinary action; but punished by not receiving pay raises for years on end, not receiving promotions, not receiving bonuses. They languish in the same position for years until their subordinates' yearly cost of living increases eventually have the subordinates making more than they are.

    I couldn't do what they wanted, and I didn't want the alternative either, so I started my own business.

    But the problem doesn't end there either, because just doing that is becoming more and more difficult. Add to that even small businesses are losing a lot of their ability to take care of their employees properly due to constantly rising operating costs (many of which are legislation-driven by the large corporations who can easily absorb those costs, and stand to come out ahead when it sinks the smaller local competition), and skyrocketing costs of living for all involved.

    Corporations are ****ing evil. Even the "good" ones.
    Last edited by Crow; 2018-03-11 at 03:11 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #638
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Reminds me of how much I hate the "why do you want to work here?" questions.

    Look, I work here, you pay me money. I don't actually care about your business. But I have ethics that say I'm supposed to do the job you pay me for, within reason. We'll do fine.
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  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    @WarKitty/2D8HP:

    Living in a country where the Solidarity Pact provides a functioning social welfare system, I find what the two of you're writing to be absolutely terrifying. I mean, whatever happens, I can be sure that my rent, utilities bills and basic cost of living are always covered, no matter what, and I'm entitled to either earn a small sum on the side (and hopefully turn that into a full time employment after a year), or enroll in one of the formal apprenticeship/job certifications programs for free, to better my chances on the job market.

    That's great for citizens, but a mixed blessing for employers. On the one hand, you can use the 450€ job model to get some "cheap help", but only for one year, than it´s either hire or fire, on the other hand, people don't need to fear unemployment, so there's basically no appeal to go for low-paying jobs "to stay afloat" (like why should you work as a call center agent when that pays less than social welfare?)

    A while back, we ran into that exact problem when opening up shop. German wage structures are based on qualification levels, so we had a really hard time actually finding people for the production backend, so either the low qualifications (forklift operator) or unskilled labor (filling and packaging).

    As for the whole sickness stuff: As employer, you always know that you run a risk vs. reward thing on this. You maximize your profits by keeping your staff as small as possible, but you also know the risk of that strategy, as accidents, sudden illness or the employee just quitting are common occurrences.
    Yeah, you can try to bully and intimidate your employees into compliance, but the results of that tactics are practically known and discussed in business circles, so it´s no surprise that some countries that use those practices tend to be on the very low end of morale and performance.
    We've basically copied what we learned as employees in other successful companies before, each key position comes with an apprentice attached to it and we invest heavily into cross-training, like paying for a truck driver license, having multiple persons certified for the forklift, sending everyone to basic SAP training, so on.
    It might surprise you but it´s part of our job contracts that coming to work sick will have you fired immediately (*) and if you have or develop chronic health issues, you will have to inform us, get sent for paid medical leave and have treatment or rehab.

    And no, this is no charity. Employees are by far our biggest block of expenses and we want them to work at peak performance, keeping the turn-over rate as low as possible to avoid a loss of procedural knowledge and having to invest again.
    My partners and me are pretty mercenary types and we are where we are today because we took any chance to jump ship when an opportunity presented itself. We expect nothing less from any real competent and ambitious employee, so we try to deal with it by having a good reputation. Alumni networking is strong in our business field and we trust our key employees to send out word that we offer a good work place and get suitable replacement soon when they start to decide to jump ship themselves.

    (*) There´s no fixed number of "sick days". You're sick, you're sick, that's it. You're sick for an extended period, the national health serve will take over your payment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    Part of the problem is the greater and greater corporatization you see in almost every industry. Sole proprietorship is down, locally-owned businesses are down, etc etc.

    Corporations are ****ing evil. Even the "good" ones.
    There're vast differences in corporate culture. Contrast something based on "Exit Five", like a tech start-up, with something monolithic based on "Shareholder Value" to something based on "Stakeholder Values", like you see in "Hidden Champions".
    Last edited by Florian; 2018-03-11 at 05:56 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #640
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    How much money does that actually make? Enough to provide health insurance and such? Because from what I've found there's really nothing out there that reliably makes enough money to pay the basic bills for someone living on their own, and doesn't require a regular work week with set times. That's just life. Other stuff is for if you want to make a bit of extra money on the side, unless you want to work super long hours all the time.
    Assuming that the problem is your current job, that is what I am suggesting. Reduce your time at your current job however you can to something more manageable, and use something flexible to make small amounts on the side to supplement it when needed.

    Really, though...I had 50h of unplanned time off last year. Keep in mind my shifts are 10h long. That's a mix of callouts, a handful of late arrivals, I think there's one or two early departures due to illness in there. That's apparently shockingly excessive and the good employees call out no more than one or two days a year. That's what I've found to be pretty standard at most jobs.
    ... That's a little less than an hour a week. Yes, that's excessive, especially since it was apparently "unplanned", which suggests you also took time off that you planned to.

    Judging from what you're telling me, you are working too many hours and need to cut back.

    There's not a whole lot to do in labor law over here. My state has no requirements for any form of breaks during the workday for adult employees. If you have a single chronic condition that you can point to, you might be able to get FMLA, but if it's more like me where it's "I get every cold that someone else brings in because they're working sick and then I end up throwing up and too dizzy to function for a day or two because my immune system hates me" there's really no relief.
    So yes, the problem is your current work environment?
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  11. - Top - End - #641
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    *Shrugs*

    You know, this lunch break, I headed over to the public transit station that has rather good bistro. Met up with some folks doing facility service, an investment banker, chemical scientist, two bureaucrats and a homeless person, practically had the same lunch (with bread or french fries) and a beer. We shared some laughs, had a good talk, shared some real experience and it didn't matter on which side of the economical or political fronts you were on.

    "Just" being a human amongst humans can be a very comforting thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @WarKitty/2D8HP:

    Living in a country where the Solidarity Pact provides a functioning social welfare system, I find what the two of you're writing to be absolutely terrifying. I mean, whatever happens, I can be sure that my rent, utilities bills and basic cost of living are always covered, no matter what,
    (*) There´s no fixed number of "sick days". You're sick, you're sick, that's it. You're sick for an extended period, the national health serve will take over your payment.[...]



    @Florian, If enough to pay rent is guaranteed there, why is someone homeless?


    @WarKitty, multiple times you've posted about your frustration with how ineffective therapy has been for you, since the reasons for your unhappiness are because of actual reality, not an internal mental state, why did you expect it to help?

    Were you hoping to be hypnotized into pleasant hallucinations like Sam in Terry Gilliam's Brazil?

    To reverse Shakespeare, the fault dear WarKitty is in your Stars (fate) not in yourself (perception of reality).

    Therapy doesn't fix environment.

    When you've been told "You should go to therapy", that means "I can't help you, and don't want to listen", and you know this, you're far too articulate and educated to not know that brightsiding "reframing" self delusion only goes so far.

    The "Just choose to be happy" advocates are delusional or frauds, DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

    You need to either move to someplace with decent healthcare and opportunities (maybe Massachusetts?) or organize with enough other people to make where you are more decent (it has been done, but don't hold your breath).

    Your environment is your problem, not your "attitude", except for believing in the liars and/or simpletons who tell you otherwise.

    It's your circumstances that need to change, work on that, not "attitude".

    That said, being a good actor and liar is rewarded so you should practice smiling, nodding, and pretending to agree when your told untruths, unless you're trying to do good for people other than yourself, in which case honesty is often more effective.

    For more immediate happiness spend more time talking to people face to face who are not customers, bosses, family or medical workers.

  12. - Top - End - #642
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post


    @Florian, If enough to pay rent is guaranteed there, why is someone homeless?

    That's a sad and quite complex topic.

    To understand that, you must know that we grant the right to make use of ALG II (*) to any German citizen, any EU citizen being here for longer than 6 months and anyone seeking asylum, during the time their asylum request is processed and as long as asylum is granted.

    The vast majority of homeless people are the "hopefuls". That are either asylum seekers who weren't accepted but who still hold out in hopes of finding a job and getting a visa this route, or people from the poorer EU member states, trying to hold out somehow for the 6 months and get into ALG II this way.

    The second block are the tragic ones. People with serious mental disorders who never thought help or fled from being hospitalized. There's nothing to be done here, as they will basically fight any attempt to help them with tooth and nail.

    The last group are mostly criminals. You need to possess a legit ID and you can´t really do anything without getting your ID and background checked and the activity registered, from opening a bank account, getting a cell phone contract, renting a flat or getting social service. You can´t even rent a hotel room without having your ID send to the police for checking and registration. If you're not part of a network or organization, it´s one of the few ways to stay off the grid.

    Then there's the autonomous punk movement, that don't want to have anything to do with state, obligations and ownership, they do it by choice.

    (*) ALG II is basic social services, so rent, utilities and a small monthly wage of 406€.
    Last edited by Florian; 2018-03-11 at 03:16 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #643
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    The first part is kinda doubtful for some of us, at least. Unless by "free food" you mean "food that you're paying for by being expected to be 100% emotionally available and continually sympathetic and comforting, but never needing any breaks or support for yourself."
    Well, as I said, this is what I told my son, not necessarily what is true for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    The second..the struggle for some of us is, what if you can't be the kind of valuable employee companies want for the kind of jobs that are actually hiring? The answer you get is "you're a bad employee who needs to do better, even if you have no control at all over the problem, but don't you dare expect any assistance from anyone or you're a selfish, lazy entitled kid who needs to grow up and get with the real world."
    I'm not disagreeing with you. In a capitalist economy, where you don't have access to many of life's necessities and small pleasures unless you can please the corporations, it sucks to be the person who has trouble with that, whether from physical ailments or a lack of training or just not having the "right" personality. I hear you. I guess what I'm trying to say (probably badly) is: Don't take it as a judgement on your worth as a human being. Don't internalize it. The corporation doesn't care about ANYONE'S worth as a human being -- it doesn't care about its "valuable employees" either except through that tiny pinhole of "how much money do they make for me?" Letting your own self worth be determined by how much money you can make for the corporate overlords is a huge mistake.

    .... which I admit is easier to say when you're not trying to figure out how to pay next month's rent or this month's medical bills. I send you wishes for good luck and sympathy either way.

    P.S. And yes, I hate that "why do you want to work here?" question. On both the interviewee and interviewer side. Most of the time, what the interviewer really means "Stroke my ego and tell me what a wonderful company this is." Bleck.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    ... That's a little less than an hour a week. Yes, that's excessive, especially since it was apparently "unplanned", which suggests you also took time off that you planned to.
    50 Hours time of is about 6-7 days. For a corporate job that has decent training requirements and the like this is reasonable. I work for a large company (~4k people in our plant) and the salaried employees have unlimited sick days (officially a doctors note is needed after 2 or 3 consecutive days but thats rarely enforced unless its being abused). This isn't purely altruistic though. Sure it does go over well with the employees but with so many people around, one person staying home sick is much better than a person coming in sick and getting 3 or 4 other people sick. On the other hand in a retail environment where turnover is expected and usually high regardless, that amount of sick time off probably won't be looked at well since you can be replaced relatively easily. Realistically the "not getting other sick" aspect should still be present here too but it rarely is just due to abuse.

    The amount of sick time off will very likely be inversely proportional to how easy it is to find/train a replacement employee.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    P.S. And yes, I hate that "why do you want to work here?" question. On both the interviewee and interviewer side. Most of the time, what the interviewer really means "Stroke my ego and tell me what a wonderful company this is." Bleck.
    This too has value in some circumstances and not in others. In a retail envrionment? A pointless question. The people are working there almost certainly just to make cash they need. Once you start getting into more career oriented things where people are looking for someone to stick around long term, the question has some value in that you WANT employees are like what they're doing. It's one of the better ways to keep retention high.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    P.S. And yes, I hate that "why do you want to work here?" question. On both the interviewee and interviewer side. Most of the time, what the interviewer really means "Stroke my ego and tell me what a wonderful company this is." Bleck.
    It basically depends on the exact job position we're talking about. It makes no sense to ask that question when it comes to "general purpose jobs" like accounting, back office bureaucracy, cashier or being a secretary. Both, employer and employee are completely replaceable when it comes to this.

    Then there're jobs where the employee has to heavily adapt to the employer. Graphic artists, product designers and such all have to adapt the the overall "style" of the company. This is when the question becomes relevant.

    Last, there's the "odd duck situation": Someone with a very excellent vita you know can get into way better companies, but applying for a job with you.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    P.S. And yes, I hate that "why do you want to work here?" question. On both the interviewee and interviewer side. Most of the time, what the interviewer really means "Stroke my ego and tell me what a wonderful company this is." Bleck.
    This too has value in some circumstances and not in others. In a retail envrionment? A pointless question. The people are working there almost certainly just to make cash they need. Once you start getting into more career oriented things where people are looking for someone to stick around long term, the question has some value in that you WANT employees are like what they're doing. It's one of the better ways to keep retention high.
    I dunno, I work as a software engineer -- a career-oriented field where it takes a long time to train up and new people -- and I still hate that question. Everyone knows the "correct" answer to the question: something like "I really admire [company's products] and am very inspired by [company's mission statement]". So it really just tests (a) do you know how to interview and (b) did you do the absolute bare minimum of research on the company before you came here? There's some tiny bit of value in (b), but the honesty:time ratio is so low that I'd rather just ask another programming question.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    [....]Everyone knows the "correct" answer to the question: something like "I really admire [company's products] and am very inspired by [company's mission statement]" [....]

    Weeds out those who are too stupid or honest.

    I would've thought that a programming job would be more about having skills to produce a tangible good, but I suppose they want willing and effective liars for "customer relations", or maybe it's just about finding people who won't "rock-the-boat".

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Weeds out those who are too stupid or honest.

    I would've thought that a programming job would be more about having skills to produce a tangible good, but I suppose they want willing and effective liars for "customer relations", or maybe it's just about finding people who won't "rock-the-boat".
    Software engineering is a tricky topic, as most companies made the error and modeled their structure based on consultancy or law firms, so flat hierarchies, hard jumps in salary based on position, so on.
    Especially when you're into contract or project work, you know your wage and what the company takes by renting out your time. So a smart employee will try to "jump ship" to get a raise in salary, especially when internal movement is not possible.
    So in this environment, it´s a way to gauge how likely the chance that the prospective employee will leave you later and how fast.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    No woes here, just seeking a bit of advice. The academic quarter is winding down at my college, and I've been thinking of getting some of the folks I've gotten to know in my various classes together to hang out and celebrate finals and the quarter being over. I've never really done this kind of thing before (it's only in the past few months to a year that I've really started 'coming out of my shell' and becoming social), but I thought it would be a great way to bring some people together, people who might not otherwise have met, consolidate friendships, and just generally have a good time now that finals are over with. My initial thought was maybe going out to a restaurant-- going to the beach town or something seemed fun, but it might be more of a drive than people are willing to make, and anyway, not everybody likes the beach. On the other hand, I don't know if people want to spend money at a restaurant, or if it's tenable for more than a few people.

    On the third hand, I don't know if college students are even interested in hanging out and meeting people after finals are over when they can instead spend the week before the next quarter starts enjoying being lazy and sleeping in instead.

    Any advice, pointers, thoughts on how to make this idea as fun and appealing as possible for people?
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    I would've thought that a programming job would be more about having skills to produce a tangible good, but I suppose they want willing and effective liars for "customer relations", or maybe it's just about finding people who won't "rock-the-boat".
    It takes 3-4 months for even a good programmer to become minimally productive at a new job, and their value grows over the next several years as they learn the ins-and-outs of the particular system the company has. So I get why they want to make sure the person they hire won't leave within the first few years. I just don't think that question is actually in the least helpful -- most people know how to answer it and aren't going to admit "I just want to take this job for a few months while I wait for my friend's startup to get funded" or whatever; meanwhile, people with less interviewing skills say something like "I like programming and I need money" and don't get hired, even though they might have stuck around trading programming for money for years because they are equally happy programming at any company.

    So I hate that question and never ask it in interviews. And I may have even ranted at my coworkers a bit when they ask it during their interviews.

    (Full disclosure: I've probably been tripped up by this question more than once because I'm a "I love programming, and I'm happy to program whatever you've got if you'll pay me"-type of person. That tends not to go over well in interviews, so I've learned to BS a bit more. That might have something to do with my dislike of the question.)

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
    Any advice, pointers, thoughts on how to make this idea as fun and appealing as possible for people?
    What always worked well was meeting in a good tex-mex or burger joint that serves margaritas by the pitcher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sermil View Post
    (Full disclosure: I've probably been tripped up by this question more than once because I'm a "I love programming, and I'm happy to program whatever you've got if you'll pay me"-type of person. That tends not to go over well in interviews, so I've learned to BS a bit more. That might have something to do with my dislike of the question.)
    Weird. Most companies I know, you'll only have to add "... and I like traveling" to your statement and you'll get the red carpet treatment.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    The second..the struggle for some of us is, what if you can't be the kind of valuable employee companies want for the kind of jobs that are actually hiring? The answer you get is "you're a bad employee who needs to do better, even if you have no control at all over the problem, but don't you dare expect any assistance from anyone or you're a selfish, lazy entitled kid who needs to grow up and get with the real world."
    Why can you not be the kind of valuable employee companies want?

    Because, if you can fix the reason you are not valuable (say by learning a skill that is in demand by employers), then do that.

    If you cannot fix the reason, you may need to set your sights lower.

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    We use the "Why do you want to work here" question as a bull**** detector. That question is one of those where how they answer will provide a lot of insight into interpreting the answers they give later in the interview. Not the answer itself, but the way in which it is given.
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    Assuming that the problem is your current job, that is what I am suggesting. Reduce your time at your current job however you can to something more manageable, and use something flexible to make small amounts on the side to supplement it when needed.
    I would have to add more hours at pretty much anything else I did to make up for any reduction in my current hours. Dropping from full time to part time has significant hours costs beyond just the wage you're making. All I'd be doing is forcing myself to work a 60h week rather than 2 40h weeks.

    The problem is me - I'm just too messed up health wise, and any time someone else comes in sick they infect me and I end up having to take time off, because my respiratory system doesn't work right and it's not possible to fix that and it means I have a lot of issues any time something makes my nose super stuffed up. Plus dealing with my family, because I don't get to opt out of that, means I have to take extra time because of the stress of dealing with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Why can you not be the kind of valuable employee companies want?

    Because, if you can fix the reason you are not valuable (say by learning a skill that is in demand by employers), then do that.

    If you cannot fix the reason, you may need to set your sights lower.

    I can't set the sights any lower and still expect to not have to live in my car. And you don't get the chance to fix that reason unless you're ALREADY the kind of employee people want and can take on even more while still staying that sort of employee. I can't just stop paying rent while I go back to school or something.

    Frankly, all my sights are on is "able to not live with parents," and it looks like THAT is too high.
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    I'm very sad today, a friend of mine said a very sad thing to me today.

    She said I have a very special skill, I’m very good at asking interesting questions but my answers are terrible.

    Asking interesting questions is a useless skill since questions don’t serve any proposes and answers are what it really matters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    What always worked well was meeting in a good tex-mex or burger joint that serves margaritas by the pitcher.
    I live in the Southwest of the US, so tex-mex cuisine is everywhere here. I appreciate the tip (and any others, if anybody else has any advice!).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    Asking interesting questions is a useless skill since questions don’t serve any proposes and answers are what it really matters.
    That's... not true in the least. I feel like you know this, but in case you don't: no, asking interesting questions is not a useless skill. It's a great way to keep a conversation alive and fresh and fun for the other person, so being told that you come up with great questions to keep conversations going is a pretty sweet compliment. Did she elabourate on just why your answers to questions are terrible?
    Last edited by Comrade; 2018-03-11 at 08:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    I would have to add more hours at pretty much anything else I did to make up for any reduction in my current hours. Dropping from full time to part time has significant hours costs beyond just the wage you're making. All I'd be doing is forcing myself to work a 60h week rather than 2 40h weeks.

    The problem is me - I'm just too messed up health wise, and any time someone else comes in sick they infect me and I end up having to take time off, because my respiratory system doesn't work right and it's not possible to fix that and it means I have a lot of issues any time something makes my nose super stuffed up. Plus dealing with my family, because I don't get to opt out of that, means I have to take extra time because of the stress of dealing with them.
    ... I can't believe I need to say this but working an 80 hour week is very bad for you and even if that weren't the case it obviously isn't helping. Cutting that down by 20 hours should at least help you get some breathing room

    I can't set the sights any lower and still expect to not have to live in my car. And you don't get the chance to fix that reason unless you're ALREADY the kind of employee people want and can take on even more while still staying that sort of employee. I can't just stop paying rent while I go back to school or something.

    Frankly, all my sights are on is "able to not live with parents," and it looks like THAT is too high.
    Is there a reason you can't live in your car for a while? Cut down your costs as much as possible, save up to get an apartment or something else small? Obviously you wouldn't WANT to, but you don't want to live in an abusive relationship with your **** of a mother, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    I'm very sad today, a friend of mine said a very sad thing to me today.

    She said I have a very special skill, I’m very good at asking interesting questions but my answers are terrible.

    Asking interesting questions is a useless skill since questions don’t serve any proposes and answers are what it really matters.
    In my experience, an interesting question is interesting because it demands that you come up with an answer yourself. And they're also far, FAR more useful and fun than just a straight answer.
    Last edited by HalfTangible; 2018-03-11 at 09:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    ... I can't believe I need to say this but working an 80 hour week is very bad for you and even if that weren't the case it obviously isn't helping. Cutting that down by 20 hours should at least help you get some breathing room
    I have no idea where that 2 came from. That was supposed to be "a 40h week". As in, in order to get enough money doing something else, I'd have to work a 60h week at two jobs instead of a 40h week at 1 job.

    Is there a reason you can't live in your car for a while? Cut down your costs as much as possible, save up to get an apartment or something else small? Obviously you wouldn't WANT to, but you don't want to live in an abusive relationship with your **** of a mother, either.
    I'm in an apartment now. I'm barely hanging on with all that work and being able to take care of myself. But I'm pretty sure in order to go back to school or move or do anything like that, I'd need to move back in with my mother in order to be able to afford to do that. I don't feel like I'm managing well, but I don't really see anything I could change about my life to manage better. I just feel like I'm worn to pieces all the time trying to manage an apartment and hold down a full time job, and I know I need to change something but I feel like every change requires an investment of time and energy that I just don't have and don't have any way to get.
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by The Eye View Post
    I'm very sad today, a friend of mine said a very sad thing to me today.

    She said I have a very special skill, I’m very good at asking interesting questions but my answers are terrible.

    Asking interesting questions is a useless skill since questions don’t serve any proposes and answers are what it really matters.
    Asking questions is a good way to break down procedures, processes, and budgets. Particularly in environments where procedure has calcified to the point where focus on the process itself is taking precedence over the quality of the final result.

    Having somebody around who asks the right questions can be one of the most important things an organization can have.

    They have to be useful questions though. While there may not be a such thing as a "useless" question, there is a thing called "context".
    Last edited by Crow; 2018-03-11 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 5

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Weeds out those who are too stupid or honest.

    I would've thought that a programming job would be more about having skills to produce a tangible good, but I suppose they want willing and effective liars for "customer relations", or maybe it's just about finding people who won't "rock-the-boat".
    No it weeds out people who aren't able to follow basic directions. Like the interview question isn't about the answer, its' about having done your homework to know what the "right" answer is and being willing to give it. Ergo, it's about loyalty to procedure and traditions, which is actually surprisingly important.
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